MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
''None at the moment.''
===Standardize "History in the Super Mario franchise" headings under certain conditions===
Inspired by [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]]'s [[User talk:Nintendo101/flowerpot|flowerpot]] subpage (from an [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User:Nintendo101/flowerpot&oldid=4209600 earlier revision], before it had been removed), this proposal aims to standardize the use of '''<nowiki>==History in the Super Mario franchise==</nowiki>''' over '''<nowiki>==History==</nowiki>'''. This will help make it clear to readers what is ''Super Mario'' and what is not while reading articles, and prevent potential disputes once a standard has been set. Please note that this proposal is '''NOT''' about the ''DK'', ''Yoshi'', or ''Wario'' subfranchises.


==New features==
For an article to apply for the '''<nowiki>==History in the Super Mario franchise==</nowiki>''' heading, the article should meet one of the following criteria:
===Expand ''Rhythm Heaven'' series coverage===
The [[WarioWare (series)|''WarioWare'']] and [[rhythmheaven:Rhythm Heaven (series)|''Rhythm Heaven'']] series cross over with each other very frequently for various reasons. As such, this wiki currently has some [[:Category:Rhythm Heaven series|limited coverage of ''Rhythm Heaven'' games]]. I believe that this coverage should be slightly expanded. While our fellow NIWA member Rhythm Heaven Wiki is doing a great job documenting these things and linking to it when relevant works, it would still be nice for the Super Mario Wiki to have ''all'' the ''WarioWare''-related ''Rhythm Heaven'' content covered within its scope.


The new articles I suggest should be created are:
#It is a generic subject (e.g. [[Grape]]s) or something from real life, like a person, with a fictional portrayal in ''Super Mario'' media, such as [[Thomas Jefferson]]. An example of this [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Dinosaur&oldid=4213618 was on the Dinosaur article before being reverted].
* [[rhythmheaven:Rhythm Heaven Fever|''Rhythm Heaven Fever'']] (contains the game [[rhythmheaven:Kung Fu Ball|Kung Fu Ball]], which features [[Young Cricket]] and was the first appearance of [[Cicada]], who has since appeared in more ''WarioWare'' games than ''Rhythm Heaven'' games)
#It is from the [[Super Mario (franchise)|''Super Mario'' franchise]] '''BUT''' has also appeared in non-''Super Mario'' media, popular examples being the [[Super Smash Bros. (series)|''Super Smash Bros.'' series]] and the ''[[Minecraft]]'' textures. Everything that isn't ''Super Mario'' would be subheadings of '''<nowiki>==History in other games==</nowiki>''', or '''<nowiki>==History in other media==</nowiki>''' if the subject also (or instead) appeared in publications, television shows, etc. not in ''Super Mario'' franchise. An example of this can be seen on the [[History of Luigi]] article.
* [[rhythmheaven:Kung Fu Ball|Kung Fu Ball]] (stars [[Young Cricket]] and [[Cicada]])
#Crossover content, including Nintendo products, as they appear in ''Super Mario'' media. Examples can be seen on the [[Game Boy]], [[Link]], and [[Egg Pawn]] pages.
* [[rhythmheaven:Tap Trial|Tap Trial]] (a version starring [[Ashley]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Munchy Monk|Munchy Monk]] (a version starring [[Master Mantis]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Fillbots 2|Fillbots 2]] (a version starring [[Mike]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Super Samurai Slice|Super Samurai Slice]] (a version starring [[18-Volt]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:The Clappy Trio 2|The Clappy Trio 2]] (a version starring [[Jimmy T]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Freeze Frame|Freeze Frame (Rhythm Game)]] (a version starring [[Dr. Crygor]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Catchy Tune 2|Catchy Tune 2]] (a version starring [[Kat & Ana]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Ringside|Ringside]] (a version starring [[Wario-Man]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')


To be clear, these articles would ''only'' cover these subjects to the extent that they are relevant to the ''WarioWare'' series, much like how the ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'' article is written. This is ''not'' a proposal to annex the Rhythm Heaven Wiki's coverage into our own.
For the first bullet point, this would help establish that real and generic subjects are not from ''Super Mario'' and makes the History heading less ambiguous. On the [[Dinosaur]] article, for example, are we reading about history of dinosaurs as they exist in real life, up to the point of extinction, or from the ''Super Mario'' franchise? It's the latter. For [[George Washington]], are we reading history about him from the 18th century or as he exists in the ''Super Mario'' franchise? It's also the latter, clearly.


'''Proposer''': {{User|JanMisali}}<br>
For the second bullet point, this would help eliminate the popular misconception that ''Super Smash Bros.'' is part of the ''Super Mario'' franchise and help better contextualize ''Super Mario'' as it exists in other media, like sometimes ''Zelda'' or ''Minecraft'', rather than being integral to the same degree as their main appearances in ''Super Mario'' media itself.
'''Deadline''': April 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT
====Create articles for ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' and all Rhythm Games that feature playable ''WarioWare'' characters====
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per my proposal.
====Only create an article for ''Rhythm Heaven Fever''====
#{{User|Hewer}} While we do have articles for the Mario minigames in [[Nintendo Land]], these ones are, from what I can tell, less substantial and reskins of un-Mario-related minigames, so I feel like giving articles to every one is a bit overkill and covering them like we currently do on the [[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]] page is neater and gives more purpose to those pages. Having a Rhythm Heaven Fever article but covering the main thing connecting it to Mario on a separate page would be like if we split the Super Mario Mash-up from the [[Minecraft]] page. That said, giving Rhythm Heaven Fever guest appearance status seems reasonable.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary choice
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} This makes the most sense to us. While the Rhythm Game articles are a tad overkill (it'd be like making a <s>Spleef</s> "Tumble" article because of Minecraft's coverage on the wiki), given ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' is retroactively the debut of [[Cicada]], it seems only fair to at least give that game an article as a guest appearance. After all, if ''[[Art Style: PiCTOBiTS]]'' <small>(our beloved)</small> can have an article as a token guest appearance because you can use Mario items, why can't Rhythm Heaven Fever when it has the debut of a ''WarioWare'' character?
#{{User|JanMisali}} Second choice, per Hewer and Camwoodstock.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per FanOfYoshi.
#{{User|BMfan08}} Hesitant as I was at first, I think this option is fair enough. Per all.
#{{User|Arend}} After thinking about it, Cicada's debut in Fever COULD be likened to the whole ''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic]]'' thing... somewhat, at least.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
#{{User|Scrooge200}}<br>'''The Voters Say...'''<br>It's only natural, considering how much the two series cross-reference each other.<br>And a character being named in another series is definitely worth noting.<br>[83] ''Superb!''


====Only create articles for the eight Rhythm Games in ''Megamix'' that have ''WarioWare'' versions====
For the third bullet point, this would eliminate confusion that the history is talking about Nintendo products in general, like when they were produced, the amount of sales generated, etc. and rather mention its appearances within the ''Super Mario'' franchise itself. History on Nintendo products themselves can be found on [[nwiki:|NintendoWiki]]. Similarly, for articles like [[Link]], it helps when the History section specifies it is of Link as he appears in the ''Super Mario'' franchise. Then connections to ''Super Mario'' go under the "History in other media" heading.
====Do nothing====
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} First of all, we have Rhythm Heaven Wiki, which you even mentioned in your proposal. We can still practically find ways to cover all of the ''Super Mario'' content in ''Rhythm Heaven'' without going overboard, otherwise we may find ourselves with a successor to the ''Super Smash Bros.'' coverage issue. Also, when you said in your proposal that you thought it would be "nice," that's vague and based on personal opinion, since one could swap out ''Rhythm Heaven'' for anything (''Bayonetta'', ''Shin Megami Tensei'', ''Terraria'', etc.) Wiki scope should be about practicality, not whether someone thinks something is "nice."
#{{user|Shadow2}} Both games constitute a minor cameo appearance. We absolutely do not need a FULL page about the ENTIRE game of RHF when Young Cricket only appears in one single small mode.


====Comments====
To make it short, if this proposal passes, and <nowiki>==History==</nowiki> is changed to <nowiki>==History in the ''Super Mario'' franchise==</nowiki> (and split into a separate <nowiki>==History in other media==</nowiki> in the case of criteria #2) on an article that can be categorized by any of the three numbered bullet points above, '''users will not be allowed to revert it back to the initial <nowiki>==History==</nowiki> heading''', like in the [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Dinosaur&diff=next&oldid=4213618 aforementioned case involving the Dinosaur article].
@Super Mario RPG: Obviously "nice" was being used to mean "preferable given the described circumstances", not sure what gave you an impression otherwise. One could not swap out Rhythm Heaven for any other franchise as Bayonetta, Shin Megami Tensei, and Terraria have not had frequent crossovers with the WarioWare series. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:18, April 22, 2024 (EDT)


@Hewer: To be fair, there ''is'' precedent for giving ''Mario'' reskins of otherwise unrelated minigames dedicated articles, namely the [[Game & Watch Gallery (series)|''Game & Watch Gallery'' series]]. I understand your point though, it might be overkill to have full coverage of all these minigames when they're already handled on the Rhythm Heaven Wiki. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 17:00, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT


@Shadow2: We're already doing precisely this for [[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]. And maybe a few others that I don't remember at the moment. [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 13:22, April 27, 2024 (EDT)
====Support for all three options====
:Plus [[Nintendo Badge Arcade]], [[Minecraft]], [[Tetris 99]], [[AR Games]], [[StreetPass Mii Plaza]], [[Nintendo Land]], etc. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:46, April 27, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I'm for this option.
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} Yes. Also, for the flowerpot thing, I have that saved (with a few tweaks) [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)/Nintendo101's flowerpot old revision saved plus tweaks|here]].


@Shadow2: To clarify, Young Cricket's role in ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' is not a "minor cameo appearance". Young Cricket's appearance in ''Rhythm Heaven Megamix'' where he briefly shows up in the background in the "Wario... Where?" version of Munchy Monk is a minor cameo. Young Cricket is a ''playable character'' in ''Rhythm Heaven Fever''. ''Rhythm Heaven'' games are music-themed minigame collections, so a character "only" being playable in a minigame does not mean the same thing that it would in a game that ''isn't'' a minigame collection. Furthermore, Kung Fu Ball has had a direct impact on the ''WarioWare'' series, to the extent that a plot point in ''WarioWare: Move It!'' (the reveal of [[Cicada]]) requires the player to be familiar with Young Cricket's role in ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' in order to have the full context. While I understand not wanting to give each of these minigames full coverage individually, I strongly believe that the game ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' itself is unquestionably relevant enough to the ''WarioWare'' series (and, by extension, to the ''Super Mario'' franchise) to justify giving it a dedicated article. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 13:39, April 27, 2024 (EDT)
====Apply to only crossover content and real products====


@Shadow2: This proposal is not seeking to cover literally ''everything'' that Rhythm Heaven Fever has for its potential article; just the stuff that is actually ''relevant'' to the ''Super Mario'' franchise (or in this case, the ''WarioWare'' series). The 2-player Endless Game Kung-Fu Ball is major enough to be covered in a ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' article on this wiki (in a similar fashion to the articles that BMfan and Hewer have listed), given that not only the ''WarioWare'' character Young Cricket is playable, but his Player 2 partner, Cicada, eventually made her way into the ''WarioWare'' series as well, via the character trailers made for ''WarioWare Gold'', and in-game with ''WarioWare: Move It!'' This would essentially make ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' to Cicada what ''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic]]'' is to [[Shy Guy]] and [[Birdo]]. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:35, April 28, 2024 (EDT)
====Oppose====
#{{User|Hewer}} Similar to your [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Standardize a "Cameo appearances" section|previous]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Standardize the "Other appearances" scope to include anything that's not a Super Mario game|proposals]] about reorganising history sections, I don't really see what we'd gain from this. For the first and third bullet points, the edit summary that removed it from the [[Dinosaur]] page sums up my thoughts: "This is obvious and unnecessary". Of course we're only going to be covering the subject's history that's within our scope, I don't think anyone's visiting the Dinosaur page seeking a complete history of the Mesozoic Era only to be disappointed when they don't find it. For the second bullet point, I ask the same question as your last attempt to split up non-Mario appearances: why does it not being a Mario game make it worth splitting up? The assertion that they're not "integral to the same degree as their main appearances in Super Mario media itself" feels wrong, games like Smash are major appearances of the Mario characters and are important to their histories, sometimes moreso than appearances in actual Mario games (Smash Melee introducing Yoshi's [[Egg Roll (move)|Egg Roll]], Smash Ultimate being K. Rool's first physical appearance in a decade, etc.). I also again question whether "the popular misconception that Super Smash Bros. is part of the Super Mario franchise" exists or is worth "fixing" in such an indirect way (we already don't consider them Mario games to my knowledge anyway). The [[Game Boy]] example is the only one given where I see some merit in doing this, since we do give some coverage to the actual histories of Nintendo hardware and it could be worth distinguishing the history of their in-universe appearances from that.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Because this is the <u>Super Mario</u> Wiki, the inherent assumption is that any subject with an article appears in the franchise (including [[Link]] and [[Sonic]]), and that the "History" section would only cover its appearance in the ''Super Mario'' franchise. What else would it be about? If a "history in the Super Mario franchise" was to be implemented anywhere, I feel like it only makes sense for recurring subjects that debuted in the ''Super Mario'' franchise, but make recurring appearances elsewhere (like Chain Chomps, which make some a few appearances in ''Zelda''). But even in that context, I don't know if it would be appropriate. (I also don't agree with the premise that any in-game subject is "generic", regardless of its name or design. The [[grape]]s in ''Yoshi's Story'' are just as derived from the {{wp|grape|real article}} as the [[Sour Bunch]].)
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per my edit summary Hewer quoted.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per Nintendo101.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|Dine2017}} Under criterion #2, common ''Mario'' subjects such as [[Goomba]] would have a long ==History in the Super Mario franchise== and a short ==History in other games/media==, making the two unbalanced. Also per all. (In the case of [[Game Boy]], I think ==Appearances in the Super Mario franchise== is more accurate, cf. [[Nintendo Entertainment System]] and [[Nintendo 64]].)


==Removals==
====Comments====
===Remove profiles and certain other content related to the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' from the wiki===
For clarity, when I say "standardize," (not to be confused with "allow," since I don't think there's anything in the rules that explicitly forbids formatting in the aforementioned three cases), it means if a page is formatted that way, others aren't allowed to revert it, since it's the standard for how said articles should look. Also, {{@|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}}, glad to see that flowerpot page. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:32, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
The wiki currently houses a sizeable number of transcriptions of information from the 2015 ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'', mainly the Japanese edition, in the form of character and enemy profiles. I stated my concern [[Talk:Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia#Copyright infringement|here]] that this practice may infringe Dark Horse/Nintendo's copyright over the product, since, to my knowledge, the book's entire selling point is to inform you on the stuff you find in Mario games through bitesized blurbs. In incorporating these blurbs within its knowledge base, the Mario Wiki, a free resource, is not just impairing the very purpose of the book, but, given that it's still in print, may negatively impact its sales. In fact, that second point is the reason this proposal concerns this book only and not similar publications like ''[[Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia]]'', which has long been out of print and has been superseded by the SMB Encyclopedia, making it highly unlikely that some big wig will send Porple a DMCA strike over something like [[Fire (100m)#Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten|Fire (100m)'s profile]]. When it comes to the 2015 Encyclopedia, though, that has a reasonable likelihood of happening and it's best the wiki enforces good faith.
:"For clarity, when I say "standardize," (not to be confused with "allow," since I don't think there's anything in the rules that explicitly forbids formatting in the aforementioned three cases), it means if a page is formatted that way, others aren't allowed to revert it, since it's the standard for how said articles should look." Thanks for the clarification! My support will still be there. "Also, {{@|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}}, glad to see that flowerpot page." Thanks! I wanted to keep/expand on it as a subpage of my userpage, b/c I didn't want any edit conflicts. You and {{@|Nintendo101}} are free to edit it if you want. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 14:43, May 17, 2024 (EDT)


On a similar basis, one user who engaged with the topic in the above talk page has also questioned the wiki's need to feature scans of the book's mistakes in its very article. Given the small size of each blurb, the scans are essentially taking away substantial chunks of information in a way that cannot be conceived as demonstrative or transformative under US Fair Use law.
Wasn't there a proposal about roughly the same thing not too long ago? You're meant to wait 28 days between proposals on the same thing, so if that's the case, we don't exactly wanna wait for a substantial amount of votes before calling attention to it. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:12, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
:No, I think this is different. That one had to do with removing franchise headers, which this one doesn't. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:23, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
::Yeah, this one is not about removing headings. It's about modifying "History" to "History in the ''Super Mario'' franchise" in one of three case, and in one case (if there's appearances outside of ''Super Mario''), splitting "History in other games/media"  into its own history heading. See what I did on [[Don Bongo]] as an example. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:39, May 17, 2024 (EDT)


What this proposal aims to do is the following:
Where would appearances in things like Smash and Captain N go in this case? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:40, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
*remove encyclopedia bios listed on various articles, regardless of their source's language. [[Tryclyde#Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. bio|Here's an example]]. [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.|Here's another]].
:"History in other media" (see [[Link]] article). [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:41, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
*delete the scans in the "List of English translation errors and typos not from the Super Mario Wiki" section of the encyclopedia's article, as well as any other scans of the book's contents, '''unless''' said content has been displayed by Nintendo or one of their official distributors for the purpose of promoting the book. To exemplify: [[:File:Encyclopedia Error 20.png|This]], [[:File:Encyclopedia Error 6.png|this]], and [[:File:ESMB page 27.png|this]] image should be deleted if the proposal passes. [[:File:EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt1.jpg|This]] and [[:File:EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt2.jpg|this]] one should also be deleted, since the content depicted in these images hasn't been used by Shogakukan, Amazon, or some other official distributor to portray the Japanese edition on their online storefronts. On the other hand, the artwork shown in the article's gallery, such as [[:File:Bowser Jr Coloring Book.png|this one]], '''shouldn't''' be removed unless they depict textual information that infringes copyright.
::Makes sense. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:48, May 17, 2024 (EDT)


A few notes:
{{@|Hewer|Nintendo101|Nightwicked Bowser}} I thought [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Oppose_13|"This is a Super Mario Wiki" as a argument was getting old]], but that's what you 3 are using! What happened in between? Is it not a old argument anymore? [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 09:04, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
*Paraphrases of the encyclopedia's information will be allowed under the proposal, so the book's article may continue to describe its mistakes until further notice.
:I don't think anything in the comment you reference contradicts any of the sentiments made here. No one is arguing subjects that originated outside of the ''Super Mario'' franchise (like Link, Sonic, [[Mad Scienstein]], [[Wart]], etc.) should not receive coverage, nor that appearances made by subjects that ''did'' emerged within the franchise should not be noted (like ''Link's Awakening'', ''Smash Bros.'', ''Tetris'', ''Qix'', etc.). Rather, because of the inherent scope of the wiki, it is assumed that a "History" section on this site encompasses the subject of the article's appearances in the ''Super Mario'' franchise and it is unclear to me why that needs further clarification. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:35, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
*Small quotes of the book will also be permitted (e.g.: "This text is translated from the Japanese instruction booklet.") if they do not violate this proposal's requirements, albeit it's entirely up to editors to decide how small a quote should be and whether it fits US Fair Use.
::But you said yourself in your oppose vote "Because this is the Super Mario Wiki", which, again, I thought was getting old as an argument. Hewer himself in the linked proposal said it! I'm just confused about what changed in between that and now. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 09:38, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
*Subject names unique to the encyclopedia are not concerned by this proposal.
:::First off, why are you getting on Nintendo101's case for an argument that I made in a proposal they didn't even take part in? Second, my point when I made that comment was that "This is a Super Mario wiki" is getting old as an argument on its own to trim, reorganise, or otherwise alter crossover content like Smash, as Super Mario RPG keeps trying to do, whereas Nintendo101's argument is that, because this is a Super Mario wiki, we don't need to specify that our content is about Super Mario. The same words may have been used, but the context of the arguments is different. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:54, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
::::First off, I'm not. Second, I didn't know that the CONTEXT was different, I only paid attention to the words, not the context. Third, a "History" section only covering the ''Super Mario'' franchise kinda neglects the references and cameos. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:01, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Isn't the point of this proposal (which you're supporting) to have history sections that only cover the Super Mario franchise? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:05, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
::::::I would like to redirect you to point 2 of the proposal. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:31, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Does that not just prove my point? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:34, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::The history section is going to be split. That's the point of this proposal. YOUR point is just around 1/2 of the point of this proposal. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:45, May 20, 2024 (EDT)


'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
==New features==
'''Deadline''': April 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT
''None at the moment.''


====Support====
==Removals==
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per proposal.
''None at the moment''
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Book's only 9 years old, this is worrisome.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. Having scans as "proof" of mistakes is especially odd, just use the book and page number as a source.
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Well, we don't want to get sued for 34 thousand dollars in the Federal Court of Malaysia now, do we? And we probably don't want a DMCA from Dark Horse/Nintendo either. Per all of yall (collectively)
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per all. Good move, Koopa con Carne.
#{{User|Somethingone}} Per proposal (as someone who usually likes images like this), and I personally don't agree with the opposition. I saw plenty of DMCAs from scans like this before.
#{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} Per proposal and per Waluigi Time's reasoning.
#{{User|Okapii}} Per all; nothing we'd be removing has enough value to risk any kind of legal action against the wiki; basically, better safe than sorry.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{user|PnnyCrygr}} yeah, this is all just chunks of copyrighted content; best to remove than to be dmcaed by darkhorse. per all
 
====Oppose====
#{{User|Axis}} I genuinely don't see how use of limited material from the book on pages relevant to the subject in question is by any means problematic.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Axis.
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} Until we know what the book itself says, I'm opposing. We can't just go, "Oh, here's this thing from 9 years ago, we can't use images of it because copyright blah blah blah." That would set a precedent that should not get set. Super Mario Pia was brought up in this proposal, as was The Art of Super Mario Odyssey in the linked talkpage, but what about others? I don't want any bad precedents being set.
<strike>#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Axis.</strike> On second thought, choosing to abstain, at least for the time being.
 
====Comments====
@Axis Put it another way: how legal would it be if you cut down a copyrighted movie in 30 second clips and uploaded all of them to your youtube channel? That's exactly what the wiki does, except with a book. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:03, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
:We're going to abstain from this vote (we're moreso concerned about citogenesis than we are copyright, admittedly, and dealing with the former generally implies dealing with the latter by proxy), but uh. We do kind of do ''exactly that'', as policy, for audio. Like, we know that's not what you meant, you meant uploading the ''whole thing'' in segments, but like, we do just outright have max-30 second excerpts for audio as a policy where going over that isn't allowed... ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 12:36, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
:There is a pretty big difference, we're not compiling every bit of information into the same page. The information is scattered across the wiki pages, it's just not comparible. By the way, I'm not opposing to removing book scans from the wiki. Maybe the proposal should have more than 2 options? [[User:Axis|Axis]] ([[User talk:Axis|talk]]) 15:15, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
::Whether or not what the wiki is doing is 1:1 comparable to my example is irrelevant, what's relevant is that both practices are illegal and may net the owner of the site / YT channel a DMCA strike. You can theoretically read the entire SMB Encyclopedia just by using the search function on the wiki to look up each enemy's bio, and there's a chance far larger than zero that someone would be choosing to go that route instead of buying the book if the wiki actually had complete coverage of it, which is where we're headed now. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:07, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
:::I'm still not convinced, sorry. [[User:Axis|Axis]] ([[User talk:Axis|talk]]) 00:57, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::Yeah, I'm with Axis here. We're not having 100% coverage, just the bios, mistakes/errors/plagarism, and a gallery. Not a FULL ON EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK IS HERE! thing. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 08:38, April 24, 2024 (CST)
:::::"We're not having 100% coverage, just the entirety of the book's contents" {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:59, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::::The things actually listed on the [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]] article itself (to be as exceedingly unambiguous as possible, we are referring to the article we just linked to, the one where a Ctrl+F for "MIPS" currently yields no results) are literally just the errors/instances of plagiarism. We sat down and counted that, if you don't include any of the pages with overlap (e.g. Page 241 having both an error unique to the book and born out of citogenesis), we only discuss 67 of the book's 256 pages, plus or minus 4 that lack a page number and we thusly cannot verify, or roughly ≈27.5% of all pages.<br>Many of these are only single-sentence aspects of the pages, and much of these come from the citogenesis examples--it is not "the entirety of the book's contents" (the fact we can't actually prove the exact quantity alone should be proof of that). And given the majority of these are about the plagiarism anyways, we don't exactly feel like humoring the idea that we should just kind of remove these acknowledgements that the book copied from us just because the book is still being sold--that's how you get things like newbies randomly moving articles back to their conjectural titles because "the book said so", even though the book only said so because it copied our work in the first place. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 13:08, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::The proposal has nothing to do with what you wrote. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:20, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::Admittedly, we misread on the whole removing things outright thing, that one's on us, oops. <s>we're so tired after last week y'all, this aside ''is'' entirely unrelated to the proposal.</s> However, we do feel like it is worth pointing out that the statement that we cover "the entirety of the book's contents" is inaccurate, which given that statement is directly meant to counter-act Axis' own vote, we think that is reasonably related to the proposal. And, as we mentioned earlier, we're far more concerned with the whole "risk of citogenesis courtesy of the book itself having copied various names that were meant to be conjectural" aspect of that article than we are if we should include images or not, hence why we've abstained from voting. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 13:26, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::The profiles concerned by this proposal are mainly from the Japanese version of the book, which of course didn't use names from the wiki. This proposal is completely unrelated to the English version having taken names from the wiki (as rare as that is for a discussion about this book). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:31, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::...'''We may be stupid''' (as we mentioned, uh, ''we're a little tired from the Everything''. apologies for just kinda barging in and evidently getting tied up in an entirely unrelated article's business... ;P) {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 13:36, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::I feel like our argument is getting semantic. Perhaps I have my large share of blame for framing the issue in absolute terms, but whether the wiki has 100%, 50%, or 20% of the book's content, the point is that said content is substantial enough as to not make its coverage tenable under copyright or fair use laws, and there are currently no restrictions for users to cover that content here in full. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:41, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::So basically no Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 13:43, April 24, 2024 (CST)
:::::::::::I didn't say ''anything'' of this sort. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:57, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::""We're not having 100% coverage, just the entirety of the book's contents"". "whether the wiki has 100%, 50%, or 20% of the book's content, the point is that said content is substantial enough as to not make its coverage tenable under copyright or fair use laws, and there are currently no restrictions for users to cover that content here in full." Does that not sound like "no Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia? {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 15:39, April 24, 2024 (CST)
:::::::::::::No? "The wiki shouldn't copy so much from the book" is very different from "it should not contain even a single mention of the book". {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:42, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Yeah, and let a lot of work go to waste. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 15:56, April 24, 2024 (CST)
:::::::::::::::Do you wanna get sued? Including all the bios from that book, which is ''the entirety of said book's contents'', while it is still on the market, is still justifiable grounds for a copyright strike. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:27, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Entirety? As in "Let's ignore the other stuff in this"? And what does the book itself say? {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 17:07, April 24, 2024 (CST)
:::::::::::::::::Literally what "other stuff" in the book? That's all there is. Little pictures (some of the artwork I ''do'' want us to have), and bios. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:12, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::The non-bios. Plus, you didn't answer my other question. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 18:06, April 24, 2024 (CST)
:::::::::::::::::::What "non-bios" do you speak of? Also I could not understand your question. What does the book say on ''what''? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:45, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
 
Genuine question: why are we thinking about this nearly a decade later? This is one of the reasons why I always made it a point to keep citations to their earliest instance. However, there are still plenty of things that are unique to the book to our knowledge, like the tidbit of MIPS being Peach's pet. What happens to that info if the proposal passes? Not to mention, ''Super Mario Pia'' was released around the same time as ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' - do those profiles not count because they don't have the same global reach? I think maybe a cutoff date needs to be established. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:52, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
:The proposal isn't about how the book is cited. The MIPS tidbit and citation can stay; the quote is supplementary, and if it constitutes the entirety of MIPS' description in the book, it can be handily removed with little impact on the subject's coverage and how its info is sourced. I omitted Super Mario Pia out of sheer oversight, admittedly, though given its anniversary nature I'm not sure if it's even sold anymore, and I believe official availability should be our primary cutoff, rather than the publishing date. I'd have Pia handled in another discussion. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:11, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
:''Genuine question: why are we thinking about this nearly a decade later?'' I can't speak for the proposer, but in the past week we've had Nintendo issuing a takedown request toward Valve for hosting copyrighted Nintendo assets on Garry's Mod, after 15+ years of seemingly being fine with the stuff. That alone makes this conversation ''very'' relevant. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 16:20, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
::Squiddy that's been proven to be a false-flag perpetrated by trolls. That being said, it's in-character for them. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:43, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
::: [https://twitter.com/garrynewman/status/1783501547361411494?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1783501547361411494%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url= Nope]. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 17:45, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
:::To be honest, if push came to shove, we feel like this'd be a rare instance of a proposal being cancelled and immediately coming into effect (that ''has'' happened before, after all, usually with "move to <X> name" proposals that ultimately didn't have any backlash whatsoever--though it coming into use for this circumstance would be rather extraordinary)... though if Nintendo was suing a wiki about their work, why they would ''only'' target an article about a book is another question we really would rather not think much of the implications on. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:05, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
::::Again, it's not about the book's article, it's about the book's contents being disseminated across "profiles" pages. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:44, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
::::Now you've done it, Camwoodstock!! Go to the chalkboard and write "this proposal is not about the article on ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia''" 100 times!!! {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:58, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
:::::We should've been clearer--we ''know'' it's about the '''''sections on the book that are in other articles' profile sections''''', and '''''NOT strictly just the article on the book and only that article'''''. You really don't need to dogpile us on it at this point. Can we address the thing we actually were trying to talk about in the first place with the whole "our point is asking why Nintendo only sue us over that and not anything else" question? In absolutely zero uncertain terms: We are not comfortable with the repeated teases about our own ambiguous syntax here. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:30, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
::::::In that case, it's not ambiguous, you plain and simply said one thing and meant another. Anyways, it's due to it being still in print and the bios in it being the entire point of the book's existence. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:14, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::To play devil's advocate--what about anything else Nintendo's made that's "still in print"? While we know this proposal was only made about removing the mentioned bios and scans, books aren't the only thing that can be "in print". {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 23:51, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::Consider that a lot of uploaded exclusive concept artwork from ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'' was removed for the same reason (notably impacting the [[Broodals]] page). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:55, April 26, 2024 (EDT)


==Changes==
==Changes==
===Overhaul titles of generic-named level/course/stage pages===
===Move ''Super Smash Bros.'' information for crossover characters into the list articles and delete their ''Super Smash Bros.'' profiles===
With the recent release of the [[Nintendo Switch]] remake of ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Nintendo Switch)|Mario vs. Donkey Kong]]'', we have already seen the introduction of two new worlds - [[Merry Mini-Land]] and [[Slippery Summit]], as well as their plus variants. However, while I was documenting levels for the remake, I have noticed an issue - since these worlds also change the numbering for [[Spooky House]], [[Mystic Forest]], and [[Twilight City]]'s level pages, this causes several concerns for me in regards to naming level articles with generic-named stage numberings in games where worlds are named:
This proposal concerns ''Super Smash Bros.'' information of certain characters listed in [[Template:Crossover characters|Crossover characters]]. It makes it harder to see the actual ''Super Mario'' content on said articles, like how the [[Isabelle]] page largely concerns her appearances in ''Super Smash Bros.'' while the actual ''Super Mario'' appearances in ''Mario Kart 8'' and ''Super Mario Maker'' are all the way below. In the case of [[Villager]], it starts off by showing the ''WarioWare'' appearances but then has this huge chunk of ''Super Smash Bros.'' information in between that and the appearances in ''Mario Kart 8'' and ''Super Mario Maker''.
*Right now, the level numberings for the various levels in ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' are correspondent to the GBA version. If I attempt to move those pages to match the Switch numbering (for example: "[[Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)]]" (Spooky House 4-1) to "[[Level 5-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)]]" (Spooky House 5-1, Switch version)), this can cause several issues with us cleaning up all the links to other level pages, and is especially the case for links to various Mystic Forest (5-x > 7-x) and Spooky House (4-x > 5-x) pages.
*Related to above, the new [[Merry Mini-Land]] and [[Slippery Summit]] pages have a slightly conjectural variation of the game's title. Take a look at this for example: "[[Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)]]", aka the first stage of Merry Mini-Land.
**As a reminder: nowhere in any circumstance has the remake been titled "''Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch''", it is simply titled "''Mario vs. Donkey Kong''". It could be seen as confusing especially as there are some [[reissue]]s of games that are officially titled the same way too (like ''[[Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS]]'').
**I attempted to get around this by initially naming the title of the article as "Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Nintendo Switch))", but it caused issues with rendering the title on top of the page.
 
What I wanted to propose is to '''overhaul the titles of generic-named level/course/stage pages'''. Level articles that fall under this description are:
*Levels with generic numbering identifiers in worlds that are not named in any circumstance (including in-game and supplementary material like ''[[Nintendo Power]]''). Example is [[World 1-1 (Super Mario Bros.)|World 1-1]] in ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]''.
*Levels with generic numbering identifiers in named worlds. Examples include [[Level 1-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)|Level 1-1 in Mario Toy Company]] (from ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong]]''), and [[World 2-3 (Super Mario Bros. 3)|World 2-3 in Desert Land/Desert Hill]] from ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]''.
*Levels with names do not count, regardless if the world is named. This is true for various levels in ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'' ([[Make Eggs, Throw Eggs]]). These article names are kept as is.


Given that there are a lot of generic-named level articles that fall under this jurisdiction, this is a very '''large-scale''' proposal, and may affect most, if not all "x-x" level articles. This will require help from the wiki's higher staff, especially an administrator who can handle several article renames and moves at large. Due to this, please note that the effects of the proposal may not be always guaranteed to be '''immediate''' even if it is already passed, but I hope to get this done with everyone as soon as possible.  
Besides, the List of ''Super Smash Bros.'' fighters pages feel kind of awkward that certain crossover characters do not have their information listed there with other non-''Super Mario'' characters, so this proposal aims to rectify that.


After brainstorming for a while, these are the possible formats we're going to aim for when making level pages, see below.
The fighters on the list pages do not have their profiles, and I don't see why the crossover characters should have them but not the fighters already in the list pages, so if this proposal passes, all of that will be deleted too. This '''includes''' the Profiles section on '''other crossover pages''' like [[Knuckles]], [[Deku Baba]], [[Zangief]], and so forth, since it would be illogical for them to keep their profiles but not the protagonists of the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series, an inconsistency that's already present. But the status of the ''SSB'' content in the History section of crossover content OTHER THAN fighters in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series can be for a future proposal.
====Option 1: "(World/Game Name) - (Level Code)"====
This is the new page naming format for levels which is based on the naming format used for WiKirby (note for reference: levels in the ''[[wikirby:Kirby (series)|Kirby]]'' series are called "stages", while worlds are called "levels".) Examples of articles on WiKirby that follow this format are [[wikirby:Cookie Country - Stage 1|Cookie Country - Stage 1]] (Level 1-1 or Stage 1 of Cookie Country in ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land|Kirby's Return to Dream Land]]''), and [[wikirby:Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble - Lvl 7-2|Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble - Lvl 7-2]] in ''[[wikirby:Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble|Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble]]''.


This makes it easier to update a level's numbering designation should any circumstances of adding new worlds in-between happen again (like how Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit were handled in the Switch version of ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong''). It can also make it easier to identify levels from each other easily without having to look up the name of the world first. This will also ensure moving articles if new worlds are added in remakes are made easier as well. Additionally, this will prevent game name confusion from occurring, specifically my issue with the Merry Mini-Land stages using the identifier "''Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch''".
This will affect the following pages, and their ''Super Smash Bros.'' information (excluding profiles) will go into the following articles:


With this format, this is how it will work:
*[[Link]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros.]]
*For levels that use generic numbering (1-x) and are from a named world, they will be named "(World Name) - X-X". For example, in the Switch version of ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'', we can call Level 5-DK and Level 8-2 as "[[Level 5-DK|Spooky House - Level 5-DK]]" and "[[Level 6-2 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)|Twilight City - Level 8-2]]".
*[[Isabelle]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]
**As a side note - if two worlds from different games happen to share names, the newer game's level page can have the newer game's title in parenthesis. For example, hypothetically speaking, we get two worlds named "MarioWiki Land" in two games. It can go like this "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2" for Game A, and "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2 (Game B)" for Game B. To my knowledge, something like this has not occurred in any official games and upcoming content.
*[[Villager]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U]]
**Depending on how the game may call the level code, it can be formatted differently. For example, in ''[[Hotel Mario]]'', levels are named as "Stage #", and Super Mario Wiki refers to their level articles with the title ("Stage # (Hotel Name)"). It can be changed to be something like "[[Stage 1 (Lemmy's High-ate Regency Hotel)|Lemmy's High-ate Regency Hotel - Stage 1]]".
*[[Kirby]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros.]]
*For levels that use generic numbering and are in '''unnamed''' worlds (eg. ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]''), they will be named "(Game Name) - X-X". For example, take World 1-1 in ''Super Mario Bros.''. This can be named as "[[World 1-1 (Super Mario Bros.)|Super Mario Bros. - World 1-1]]" instead. The "world" designator can be renamed to "Level/Area/Stage/Course" depending on how the game calls it.
*[[Sonic]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]
**Some of you might be concerned with it conflicting with a certain job name in ''[[Super Mario Maker 2]]'' - "[[Super Mario Bros. W1-1?]]". It shouldn't conflict at all - the format of the title is seemingly close but in the end it's fairly different.
*[[Mii]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U]]
*Redirects can be made based on the original names of the articles. For example, if "[[Level 6-3 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)]]" is moved to "Twilight City - Level 8-3", the former can be turned into a redirect that leads to the latter new title of the article itself, to make it easier to search for wiki readers who are more used to the old format. Another example is if "[[World 1-2 (Super Mario Bros. 3)]]" is moved to "Grass Land - World 1-2", where typing in "World 1-2 (Super Mario Bros. 3)" still leads to the article with the new name.
*[[R.O.B.]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]
*Levels with names are already kept as is. If some level names from two or more games conflict due to them being the same, the name of the game should be placed in parenthesis for the associated articles, while the level of the game that is released first chronologically will keep its name as is (no game title in parenthesis after it.)
*[[Kirby]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros.]]
*If a case of level codes being updated occurs due to addition of new worlds (eg. Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit), the reissue's new level numbering should take priority over the old one.
*[[Banjo]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]
*[[Kazooie]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]
*[[Mega Man]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U]]
*[[Pac-Man]] → [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U]]


====Option 2: "(World Name) - (Level Code)" and "(Level Code) (Game Name)"====
There's also Samus, and there's a proposal to currently split the article, so if that passes, her ''Super Smash Bros.'' information will stay on the [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros.]] page.
This is a variation of the first option which incorporates itself with the old level article naming system to make it more flexible to some situations especially for tackling commonly-searched terms like "World 1-1". This is how it will go:


*Levels that use generic numbering and are from a named world will be named "(World Name) - Level X-X". Ex. [[Level 4-mm (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)]] becomes "Merry Mini-Land - Level 4-mm".
Note: A short summary of the character's role, or any connections to ''Super Mario'', will remain intact, similarly to how [[Mario#History]] has a short summary on Mario throughout his appearance while the main history page on Mario is located at [[History of Mario]].
**If two worlds from different games happen to share names, the newer game's level page can have the newer game's title in parenthesis. For example, hypothetically speaking, we get two worlds named "MarioWiki Land" in two games. It can go like this "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2" for Game A, and "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2 (Game B)" for Game B. To my knowledge, something like this has not occurred in any official games and upcoming content.
**Depending on how the game may call the level code, it can be formatted differently, whether it would be "Stage X-X", "Area X-X", or even simply "X-X".
**For redirects, the original names of the articles may serve as redirects, however this may be handled differently depending on certain circumstances (shifting of world number for various worlds in the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' remake, for example).
*Levels that use generic numbering and are from worlds with no names will follow this format: "World X-X ('Game Name')". Examples of such are [[World 1-1 (Super Mario Bros.)]] and [[World 18-1]]. The game name is used to differentiate the level from other games featuring a level with the same name, as per usual.
*Levels with names are already kept as is.
*If a case of level codes being updated occurs due to addition of new worlds (eg. Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit), the reissue's new level numbering should take priority over the old one.


I believe that identifying generically-named levels with numbered coding from each other should be made easier, especially if we need to look up information quickly for a friend struggling to find a level or its information. Right now, the current method of using game titles in parentheses makes it hard for such information to be easily looked up, and it has become more of an issue when we tried to fix up the level number coding and the articles for the new levels when documenting the Switch remake of ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Nintendo Switch)|Mario vs. Donkey Kong]]''. I hope this proposal serves to change this for the foreseeable future.
There are three options: Option 1 will enact all of the changes above, Option 2 will remove only the ''Super Smash Bros.'' profiles from pages on non-''Super Mario'' content, and Option 3 opposes everything in this proposal.


'''Proposer''': {{User|EleCyon}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': June 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Option 1====
====Option 1: Full support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} As proposer.


====Option 2====
====Option 2: Trim profiles only====
#{{User|EleCyon}} - First choice, per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} - This could help solve some level naming discrepancies.


====Keep as is====
====Option 3: Oppose====
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't really get why the problem of a few worlds in Mario vs. Donkey Kong getting their numbers changed warrants a massive change to how we name levels that forgoes our usual naming and identifier rules for no apparent reason. There was never a level called "Super Mario Bros. - World 1-1", it's just known as "World 1-1". I'd compare this to the case of Mario Kart tracks: for example, we have [[Wii Rainbow Road]], but [[Rainbow Road (Mario Kart: Double Dash!!)]]. We ''could'' rename the latter "GCN Rainbow Road" to be more neat and consistent, but it's never been officially called that, so we don't. I'd rather use that same logic and stick to official naming instead of enforcing our own version. And I don't see why only newer games should get identifiers for their titles - I feel like having both get identifiers, similar to the current system where identifier-less [[World 1-1]] is a disambiguation, makes more sense.
#{{User|Axis}} I believe it's unnecessary.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per Hewer, changing our entire level naming system just for disambiguating some MVDK worlds is overkill. However, I could see the merits of using the world name as an identifier specifically for disambiguating worlds 4 and more of MVDK (e.g., [[Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)|Level 4-1 (Merry Mini-Land)]]) and only in that specific case.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} It makes intuitive sense to just list the ''Super Smash Bros.'' info on the pages of the character when available. (As a side note, the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series has a pretty intimate relationship with the ''Super Mario'' franchise, and I do not think we should be omitting coverage here just because SmashWiki exists. We don't address topics the same way.)
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Hewer. The ''MvDK (Switch)'' situation is overwhelmingly the exception, rather than the norm, so accounting for it on the levels for every single game that doesn't have this problem (so... ''basically every other Mario video game that has level articles'') is extremely overkill.
#{{User|Tails777}} If the characters have an article, I see no reason why Smash stuff should be singled out and removed just because it's not Mario related.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per all. The proposal as written would be a lot of work for very little benefit, but implementing this for ''exclusively'' the relevant ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' stages would make those titles both less cluttered and more descriptive.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per all, especially Nintendo101
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} per plexing
#{{User|Hewer}} It's standard practice (and also pretty logical) to list any time a subject happens to appear alongside Mario stuff. [[Captain N: The Game Master]] is a good example - it's considered a guest appearance, so it doesn't get full coverage, but we still mention things' appearances there if they happen to be covered on the wiki for some other reason, e.g. [[Slime (Dragon Quest)]]. So why should Smash (where Mario stuff perhaps has a greater role than in Captain N) be the one exception? The proposal tries to argue about organisation and finding information, but I'd say unnecessarily splitting a character's information across multiple pages is the real bad organisation here. If people really can't bear to scroll through some Smash stuff in order to find what they're looking for (which, mind, might be the Smash stuff anyway), they can use the contents links at the top of the article to jump to particular sections no problem. And also, to be frank, I don't really understand what the proposal is talking about regarding "profiles".
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. (please note that before MB64's vote, my vote was blank)
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per all, especially Hewer's reasoning.
#{{User|YoYo}} per all.
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per FanOfYoshi


====Comments====
====Comments====
Personally, I fail to see how this makes it any easier. With longer titles especially, the search dropdown's just gonna get cut off and you'll have a bunch of identical copies of the game title without being able to tell which is which (unless the functionality of it has been updated without me realizing). Also, I disagree with prioritizing remake over original with this. I'm not voting right now because I consider myself too tired to do so reliably, but those are my thoughts right now. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:58, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
<s>[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Trim_the_Smash_Bros_trophies_page|This passed proposal]] already establishes that non-Mario trophies should be removed from dedicated character articles. Check out the bolded sentence and the rationale after it:<blockquote>It's simple. I propose to simply trim those trophies list pages to only the Mario/DK/Wario etc. character and cut the rest. '''This includes crossover characters that have pages on the wiki''' - while we may have a Link page because he's in Mario Kart 8, his Smash Bros trophy is about Link the protagonist of his own independent intellectual property and not Link the funny Mario Kart 8 man, and it leads to the bizarre situation of having a listing of Link but not the character his series is named after. Best keep things simple. </blockquote> I believe if option 3 were to win in this proposal, that decision would be overturned.</s> {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:06, May 28, 2024 (EDT), edited 15:14, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
 
:Okay, I'll remove that from the scope of the proposal then. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:09, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
I'll point out that "(''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' for Nintendo Switch)" as an identifier is supported by [[MarioWiki:Naming]]: "If two different games share the same title but appear on different consoles and the identifier needs to distinguish between them, the game name and console are used in this format: ({game name} for {console}). For example, [[Beach Volleyball (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games for Wii)|Beach Volleyball (''Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games'' for Wii)]]." And you can tell the difference from something where it's part of the actual title like ''Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS'' thanks to the placement of the italics. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:18, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
::Wait, hold on, I may be stupid. That simply specifies that the subjects who have pages on the wiki, but do not pertain to the Mario franchise, would be among the trophies trimmed from the trophy pages, but it does not specify that they'd be trimmed from their own pages as well. I confused myself and hopefully I can clear it up following my above comment. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:13, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::I was about to ask about the example of me trimming the profiles from the [[Sonic]] page applies, but now I'm not sure what's going on myself. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:25, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::That was about the lists of all trophies per game, not profile sections for individual subjects. Doesn't look like there's any overlap between these proposals. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:14, May 28, 2024 (EDT)


Given the problem is exclusively present in the MvDK levels, I feel like it makes more sense to simply use a format like [[Level 4-5 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)|Spooky House-5]] and [[Level 4-mm (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)|Merry Mini-Land-mm]] for specifically that game and its remake, and leave the other courses and levels alone. This seems at least like an acceptable choice, given that the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' and ''New Super Luigi U'' courses [[Stone-Eye Zone]] and [[Spike's Tumbling Desert]] are both being alternatively referred to as Layer-Cake Desert-1 in their respective articles; meaning that, if these NSMBU and NSLU courses hadn't gotten exclusive names, the wiki would've most likely went for the Layer-Cake Desert-1 format. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:19, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
I was going to address the opposition by stating that, should this pass, a short summary of each character's ''SSB'' role will remain on the page (See [[Mario#History]] for a similar type of example), but the main information will be on the list of fighters pages. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 16:42, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
:This seems like the best solution to me. Relying solely on parentheses for this leads to, I believe, everything after world 4 needing them because the numbers desync. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 15:00, April 23, 2024 (EDT)


Jdtendo does make a good point, however. Using the world's name in parenthesis for the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' worlds might be a better idea to go than mass renaming all the worlds to match what we're going for in the proposal. I might consider this should the proposal not pass at all, especially as I'm about to start documenting Slippery Summit levels soon. --[[User:EleCyon|EleCyon]] ([[User talk:EleCyon|talk]]) 21:58, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
Looks like the truncation of the moves helps a lot with accessibility, like on the Villager page listed above. Pages like [[Fox]] still have excessive profiles, and it seems weird to have those there but not on like the corresponding List of trophies pages. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 17:30, May 29, 2024 (EDT)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 17:30, May 29, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Thursday, May 30th, 00:23 GMT
Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • "Vote" periods last for one week.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  9. All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
  10. If a proposal with only two voting options has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail with a margin of at least three votes, otherwise the deadline will be extended for another week as if no majority was reached at all.
  11. Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
  12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  14. Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
  17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "May 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPPDiscuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{SettledTPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
  3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.
  5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Merge the Wrecking Crew and VS. Wrecking Crew phases into list articles, Axis (ended February 24, 2022)
Do not consider usage of classic recurring themes as references to the game of origin, Swallow (ended March 9, 2022)
Split Mario Kart Tour character variants into list articles, Tails777 (ended May 4, 2022)
Enforce WCAG Level AA standards to mainspace and template content, PanchamBro (ended May 29, 2022)
Change how RPG enemy infoboxes classify role, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2022)
Classify the Just Dance series as a guest appearance, Spectrogram (ended April 27, 2023)
Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)
Consider filenames as sources and create redirects, Axis (ended August 24, 2023)
Add tabbers to race/battle course articles, GuntherBB (ended November 18, 2023)
Remove elemental creatures categories from various Super Mario RPG enemies, Swallow (ended January 11, 2024)
Standardize the formatting of foreign and explanatory words and phrases in "Names in other languages" tables, Annalisa10 (ended February 7, 2024)
Merge Super Mario Bros. (film) subjects with their game counterparts, JanMisali (ended April 18, 2024)
Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki, Koopa con Carne (ended April 30, 2024)
Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Consider "humorous" and other related terms as frequently misused in MarioWiki:Good writing, DrippingYellow (ended May 28, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split the various reissues of Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended April 22, 2022)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Expand source priority exception to include regional English differences, LinkTheLefty (ended January 14, 2023)
Add product IDs in game infoboxes, Windy (ended March 18, 2023)
Remove the list of Super Smash Bros. series objects, Axis (ended May 10, 2023)
Split Special Shot into separate articles by game, Technetium (ended September 30, 2023)
Convert the lists of episode appearances for television series characters into categories, Camwoodstock (ended November 22, 2023)
Change the Super Mario 64 DS level section to include more specific character requirements, Altendo (ended December 20, 2023)
Split the Jungle Buddies from Animal Friends, DrippingYellow (ended December 22, 2023)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Merge the ghost Bats and Mice from Luigi's Mansion to their respective organic counterparts from the later games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)
Split Strobomb from Robomb, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)
Split the NES and SNES releases of Wario's Woods, SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (ended March 27, 2024)
Merge Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner to Mii, TheUndescribableGhost (ended March 28, 2024)
Split Mario's Time Machine (Nintendo Entertainment System), or the Super Nintendo Entertainment version along with both console versions of Mario is Missing!, LinkTheLefty (ended April 11, 2024)
Remove non-Super Mario content from Super Smash Bros. series challenges articles, BMfan08 (ended May 3, 2024)
Merge Stompybot 3000 with Colonel Pluck, DrippingYellow (ended May 4, 2024)
Split "Team Dinosaur" from The Dinosaurs, Blinker (ended May 15, 2024)
Delete Memory Card, Nightwicked Bowser (ended May 23, 2024)
In Template:Species infobox, expand "Relatives" guidelines to include variant-type relationships with significant differences between species, DrippingYellow (ended May 26, 2024)
Split Cheep Blimp (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door) and Zeeppelin from the blimp page, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended May 28, 2024)

Writing guidelines

Standardize "History in the Super Mario franchise" headings under certain conditions

Inspired by Nintendo101's flowerpot subpage (from an earlier revision, before it had been removed), this proposal aims to standardize the use of ==History in the Super Mario franchise== over ==History==. This will help make it clear to readers what is Super Mario and what is not while reading articles, and prevent potential disputes once a standard has been set. Please note that this proposal is NOT about the DK, Yoshi, or Wario subfranchises.

For an article to apply for the ==History in the Super Mario franchise== heading, the article should meet one of the following criteria:

  1. It is a generic subject (e.g. Grapes) or something from real life, like a person, with a fictional portrayal in Super Mario media, such as Thomas Jefferson. An example of this was on the Dinosaur article before being reverted.
  2. It is from the Super Mario franchise BUT has also appeared in non-Super Mario media, popular examples being the Super Smash Bros. series and the Minecraft textures. Everything that isn't Super Mario would be subheadings of ==History in other games==, or ==History in other media== if the subject also (or instead) appeared in publications, television shows, etc. not in Super Mario franchise. An example of this can be seen on the History of Luigi article.
  3. Crossover content, including Nintendo products, as they appear in Super Mario media. Examples can be seen on the Game Boy, Link, and Egg Pawn pages.

For the first bullet point, this would help establish that real and generic subjects are not from Super Mario and makes the History heading less ambiguous. On the Dinosaur article, for example, are we reading about history of dinosaurs as they exist in real life, up to the point of extinction, or from the Super Mario franchise? It's the latter. For George Washington, are we reading history about him from the 18th century or as he exists in the Super Mario franchise? It's also the latter, clearly.

For the second bullet point, this would help eliminate the popular misconception that Super Smash Bros. is part of the Super Mario franchise and help better contextualize Super Mario as it exists in other media, like sometimes Zelda or Minecraft, rather than being integral to the same degree as their main appearances in Super Mario media itself.

For the third bullet point, this would eliminate confusion that the history is talking about Nintendo products in general, like when they were produced, the amount of sales generated, etc. and rather mention its appearances within the Super Mario franchise itself. History on Nintendo products themselves can be found on NintendoWiki. Similarly, for articles like Link, it helps when the History section specifies it is of Link as he appears in the Super Mario franchise. Then connections to Super Mario go under the "History in other media" heading.

To make it short, if this proposal passes, and ==History== is changed to ==History in the ''Super Mario'' franchise== (and split into a separate ==History in other media== in the case of criteria #2) on an article that can be categorized by any of the three numbered bullet points above, users will not be allowed to revert it back to the initial ==History== heading, like in the aforementioned case involving the Dinosaur article.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: May 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support for all three options

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) I'm for this option.
  2. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) Yes. Also, for the flowerpot thing, I have that saved (with a few tweaks) here.

Apply to only crossover content and real products

Oppose

  1. Hewer (talk) Similar to your previous proposals about reorganising history sections, I don't really see what we'd gain from this. For the first and third bullet points, the edit summary that removed it from the Dinosaur page sums up my thoughts: "This is obvious and unnecessary". Of course we're only going to be covering the subject's history that's within our scope, I don't think anyone's visiting the Dinosaur page seeking a complete history of the Mesozoic Era only to be disappointed when they don't find it. For the second bullet point, I ask the same question as your last attempt to split up non-Mario appearances: why does it not being a Mario game make it worth splitting up? The assertion that they're not "integral to the same degree as their main appearances in Super Mario media itself" feels wrong, games like Smash are major appearances of the Mario characters and are important to their histories, sometimes moreso than appearances in actual Mario games (Smash Melee introducing Yoshi's Egg Roll, Smash Ultimate being K. Rool's first physical appearance in a decade, etc.). I also again question whether "the popular misconception that Super Smash Bros. is part of the Super Mario franchise" exists or is worth "fixing" in such an indirect way (we already don't consider them Mario games to my knowledge anyway). The Game Boy example is the only one given where I see some merit in doing this, since we do give some coverage to the actual histories of Nintendo hardware and it could be worth distinguishing the history of their in-universe appearances from that.
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) Because this is the Super Mario Wiki, the inherent assumption is that any subject with an article appears in the franchise (including Link and Sonic), and that the "History" section would only cover its appearance in the Super Mario franchise. What else would it be about? If a "history in the Super Mario franchise" was to be implemented anywhere, I feel like it only makes sense for recurring subjects that debuted in the Super Mario franchise, but make recurring appearances elsewhere (like Chain Chomps, which make some a few appearances in Zelda). But even in that context, I don't know if it would be appropriate. (I also don't agree with the premise that any in-game subject is "generic", regardless of its name or design. The grapes in Yoshi's Story are just as derived from the real article as the Sour Bunch.)
  3. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) Per my edit summary Hewer quoted.
  4. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) Per Nintendo101.
  5. Jazama (talk) Per all
  6. Dine2017 (talk) Under criterion #2, common Mario subjects such as Goomba would have a long ==History in the Super Mario franchise== and a short ==History in other games/media==, making the two unbalanced. Also per all. (In the case of Game Boy, I think ==Appearances in the Super Mario franchise== is more accurate, cf. Nintendo Entertainment System and Nintendo 64.)

Comments

For clarity, when I say "standardize," (not to be confused with "allow," since I don't think there's anything in the rules that explicitly forbids formatting in the aforementioned three cases), it means if a page is formatted that way, others aren't allowed to revert it, since it's the standard for how said articles should look. Also, @SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA), glad to see that flowerpot page. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:32, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

"For clarity, when I say "standardize," (not to be confused with "allow," since I don't think there's anything in the rules that explicitly forbids formatting in the aforementioned three cases), it means if a page is formatted that way, others aren't allowed to revert it, since it's the standard for how said articles should look." Thanks for the clarification! My support will still be there. "Also, @SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA), glad to see that flowerpot page." Thanks! I wanted to keep/expand on it as a subpage of my userpage, b/c I didn't want any edit conflicts. You and @Nintendo101 are free to edit it if you want. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 14:43, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

Wasn't there a proposal about roughly the same thing not too long ago? You're meant to wait 28 days between proposals on the same thing, so if that's the case, we don't exactly wanna wait for a substantial amount of votes before calling attention to it. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 15:12, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

No, I think this is different. That one had to do with removing franchise headers, which this one doesn't. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 15:23, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
Yeah, this one is not about removing headings. It's about modifying "History" to "History in the Super Mario franchise" in one of three case, and in one case (if there's appearances outside of Super Mario), splitting "History in other games/media" into its own history heading. See what I did on Don Bongo as an example. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:39, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

Where would appearances in things like Smash and Captain N go in this case? -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:40, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

"History in other media" (see Link article). Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:41, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
Makes sense. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 15:48, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

@Hewer @Nintendo101 @Nightwicked Bowser I thought "This is a Super Mario Wiki" as a argument was getting old, but that's what you 3 are using! What happened in between? Is it not a old argument anymore? SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 09:04, May 20, 2024 (EDT)

I don't think anything in the comment you reference contradicts any of the sentiments made here. No one is arguing subjects that originated outside of the Super Mario franchise (like Link, Sonic, Mad Scienstein, Wart, etc.) should not receive coverage, nor that appearances made by subjects that did emerged within the franchise should not be noted (like Link's Awakening, Smash Bros., Tetris, Qix, etc.). Rather, because of the inherent scope of the wiki, it is assumed that a "History" section on this site encompasses the subject of the article's appearances in the Super Mario franchise and it is unclear to me why that needs further clarification. - Nintendo101 (talk) 09:35, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
But you said yourself in your oppose vote "Because this is the Super Mario Wiki", which, again, I thought was getting old as an argument. Hewer himself in the linked proposal said it! I'm just confused about what changed in between that and now. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 09:38, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
First off, why are you getting on Nintendo101's case for an argument that I made in a proposal they didn't even take part in? Second, my point when I made that comment was that "This is a Super Mario wiki" is getting old as an argument on its own to trim, reorganise, or otherwise alter crossover content like Smash, as Super Mario RPG keeps trying to do, whereas Nintendo101's argument is that, because this is a Super Mario wiki, we don't need to specify that our content is about Super Mario. The same words may have been used, but the context of the arguments is different. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:54, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
First off, I'm not. Second, I didn't know that the CONTEXT was different, I only paid attention to the words, not the context. Third, a "History" section only covering the Super Mario franchise kinda neglects the references and cameos. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:01, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
Isn't the point of this proposal (which you're supporting) to have history sections that only cover the Super Mario franchise? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:05, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
I would like to redirect you to point 2 of the proposal. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:31, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
Does that not just prove my point? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:34, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
The history section is going to be split. That's the point of this proposal. YOUR point is just around 1/2 of the point of this proposal. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:45, May 20, 2024 (EDT)

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment

Changes

Move Super Smash Bros. information for crossover characters into the list articles and delete their Super Smash Bros. profiles

This proposal concerns Super Smash Bros. information of certain characters listed in Crossover characters. It makes it harder to see the actual Super Mario content on said articles, like how the Isabelle page largely concerns her appearances in Super Smash Bros. while the actual Super Mario appearances in Mario Kart 8 and Super Mario Maker are all the way below. In the case of Villager, it starts off by showing the WarioWare appearances but then has this huge chunk of Super Smash Bros. information in between that and the appearances in Mario Kart 8 and Super Mario Maker.

Besides, the List of Super Smash Bros. fighters pages feel kind of awkward that certain crossover characters do not have their information listed there with other non-Super Mario characters, so this proposal aims to rectify that.

The fighters on the list pages do not have their profiles, and I don't see why the crossover characters should have them but not the fighters already in the list pages, so if this proposal passes, all of that will be deleted too. This includes the Profiles section on other crossover pages like Knuckles, Deku Baba, Zangief, and so forth, since it would be illogical for them to keep their profiles but not the protagonists of the Super Smash Bros. series, an inconsistency that's already present. But the status of the SSB content in the History section of crossover content OTHER THAN fighters in the Super Smash Bros. series can be for a future proposal.

This will affect the following pages, and their Super Smash Bros. information (excluding profiles) will go into the following articles:

There's also Samus, and there's a proposal to currently split the article, so if that passes, her Super Smash Bros. information will stay on the List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. page.

Note: A short summary of the character's role, or any connections to Super Mario, will remain intact, similarly to how Mario#History has a short summary on Mario throughout his appearance while the main history page on Mario is located at History of Mario.

There are three options: Option 1 will enact all of the changes above, Option 2 will remove only the Super Smash Bros. profiles from pages on non-Super Mario content, and Option 3 opposes everything in this proposal.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: June 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Option 1: Full support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) As proposer.

Option 2: Trim profiles only

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Secondary

Option 3: Oppose

  1. Axis (talk) I believe it's unnecessary.
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) It makes intuitive sense to just list the Super Smash Bros. info on the pages of the character when available. (As a side note, the Super Smash Bros. series has a pretty intimate relationship with the Super Mario franchise, and I do not think we should be omitting coverage here just because SmashWiki exists. We don't address topics the same way.)
  3. Tails777 (talk) If the characters have an article, I see no reason why Smash stuff should be singled out and removed just because it's not Mario related.
  4. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per all, especially Nintendo101
  5. Hewer (talk) It's standard practice (and also pretty logical) to list any time a subject happens to appear alongside Mario stuff. Captain N: The Game Master is a good example - it's considered a guest appearance, so it doesn't get full coverage, but we still mention things' appearances there if they happen to be covered on the wiki for some other reason, e.g. Slime (Dragon Quest). So why should Smash (where Mario stuff perhaps has a greater role than in Captain N) be the one exception? The proposal tries to argue about organisation and finding information, but I'd say unnecessarily splitting a character's information across multiple pages is the real bad organisation here. If people really can't bear to scroll through some Smash stuff in order to find what they're looking for (which, mind, might be the Smash stuff anyway), they can use the contents links at the top of the article to jump to particular sections no problem. And also, to be frank, I don't really understand what the proposal is talking about regarding "profiles".
  6. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) Per all, especially Hewer's reasoning.

Comments

This passed proposal already establishes that non-Mario trophies should be removed from dedicated character articles. Check out the bolded sentence and the rationale after it:

It's simple. I propose to simply trim those trophies list pages to only the Mario/DK/Wario etc. character and cut the rest. This includes crossover characters that have pages on the wiki - while we may have a Link page because he's in Mario Kart 8, his Smash Bros trophy is about Link the protagonist of his own independent intellectual property and not Link the funny Mario Kart 8 man, and it leads to the bizarre situation of having a listing of Link but not the character his series is named after. Best keep things simple.

I believe if option 3 were to win in this proposal, that decision would be overturned. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:06, May 28, 2024 (EDT), edited 15:14, May 28, 2024 (EDT)

Okay, I'll remove that from the scope of the proposal then. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:09, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
Wait, hold on, I may be stupid. That simply specifies that the subjects who have pages on the wiki, but do not pertain to the Mario franchise, would be among the trophies trimmed from the trophy pages, but it does not specify that they'd be trimmed from their own pages as well. I confused myself and hopefully I can clear it up following my above comment. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:13, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
I was about to ask about the example of me trimming the profiles from the Sonic page applies, but now I'm not sure what's going on myself. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:25, May 28, 2024 (EDT)
That was about the lists of all trophies per game, not profile sections for individual subjects. Doesn't look like there's any overlap between these proposals. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 16:14, May 28, 2024 (EDT)

I was going to address the opposition by stating that, should this pass, a short summary of each character's SSB role will remain on the page (See Mario#History for a similar type of example), but the main information will be on the list of fighters pages. Super Mario RPG (talk) 16:42, May 28, 2024 (EDT)

Looks like the truncation of the moves helps a lot with accessibility, like on the Villager page listed above. Pages like Fox still have excessive profiles, and it seems weird to have those there but not on like the corresponding List of trophies pages. Super Mario RPG (talk) 17:30, May 29, 2024 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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