Editing Talk:Pale Piranha

==Merge into Piranha Plant==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|8-1|merge}}
There has been a translation inconsistency in English concerning the Piranha Plant variants in Paper Mario: TTYD. This enemy, which was named Pale Piranha in the English version, was just known as "Pakkun Flower", i.e. [[Piranha Plant]], in the original Japanese version, and subsequently in all translated versions except English.

On the other hand, the enemy simply known as "Piranha Plant" that later appears in the [[Pit of 100 Trials (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)|Pit of 100 Trials]] was known as "Killer Pakkun" in the Japanese version, and subsequently according names in all translated versions except English.

It is apparent to me that there has been a mix-up in the English version and that "Pale Piranha" is a mistaken name for what should just be called [[Piranha Plant]]. On the other hand, I will separately propose that the "Killer Pakun" is split from the Piranha Plant article to a new page "Piranha Plant (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)".

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Cobold}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' April 3 2010, 23:59
===Merge===
#{{User|Cobold}} - For the same reasons that [[Talk:Yo'ster Isle|Yo'ster Isle]] will be merged with Yoshi's Island.
#{{User|KS3}} Looks like the English have trouble translating.
#{{User|Vellidragon}} - Everything else is being merged/split based on the Japanese name, so this should too.
#{{User|Grandy02}} - Per all, the creators intended it to be a differently coloured regular Piranha Plant, which is also reflected by non-English localisations.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per all.
#{{User|Mr.C}} - Per All.
#{{User|Mr bones}} - We're not about to split underground goomba(fan name) in SMB and Goomba.And per the reason given by Cobold.
#{{User|Yoshario}}: Per Cobold

===No Merge===
#{{User|Commander Code-8}} Haven't you noticed that the Pale Piranha and the Piranha Plant are different colours? So they should be different species.

===Comments===
@Commander Code-8: This is by far not the only enemy appearing with different colour schemes. They are also both red and green Piranha Plants, especially in their early appearances, yet they don't have separate articles. The game creators intended "Pale Piranhas" to be normal Piranha Plants that only changed their colour due to their environment, nothing more. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 17:42, 2 April 2010 (EDT)

== STOP==
Please quit messing up this article.A pale piranha is a ''sub-species'' of piranha plant.There are actual Piranha plants in Paper Mario:TTYD
Dull bones are not Dry bones.Dark Puffs are not Ruff Puffs.Pale Piranhas are not Piranha Plants. {{user|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}
:See the proposal above? Because of it, Pale Piranha gets merged to Piranha Plant. If you disagree, make a proposal to split them. {{User:Mario4Ever/Sig}}

==Split Pale Piranha and Piranha Plant==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|6-10|do not split}}

This needs to be fixed.Pale Piranha needs its own article.It is a subspecies of Piranha Plant,much like Dull Bones is a sub-species of Dry Bones.Their stronger relatives both appaer later in the game.Just Because the Piranha Plants in the pit of 100 trials are stronger,they are stll garden-variety piranha plants.According to Goombella's tattles,(which is more offficial than the japanese names)The Pale Piranhas are a sub-species and the normal colored ones are normal piranha plants.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Yoshiyoshiyoshi}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' May 10, 2011, 23:59 (GMT)

===Support===
#{{User|yoshiyoshiyoshi}} They are not the same thing,per my proposal.on the Tattle,Goombella Clearly says this is a subspecies.Subspecies get their own article.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per the proposer.
#{{User|SWFlash}} The proposal above mentioned "all stubs must die" thing. Per proposal (current).
#{{User|Nicke8}}Per the proposal that got the DKCR enemies split.
#{{User|FourPaperHeroes}} Per all.
#{{User|BoygeyDude}} Per all.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per the proposal that got them merged.
#{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}} Per above.
#{{User|UltraMario3000}} Dry Bones and Dull Bones aren't the same since they have different stats. However, these shouldn't be split because Piranha Plants weren't in PM:TTD unless you count those poison ones.
#{{User|Edofenrir}} - This proposal does not make any points that rebut the decision made in the previous one. The reasoning behind the old proposal is much sounder as in this one. Therefore, the old decision should be retained.
#{{user|Mario jc}} Per above proposal and per all.
#{{User|Zero777}} per Edo, and also the proposal say to merge the Piranha Plant from PM: TTYD into it, but it's already in the article.
#{{User|LeftyGreenMario}} I don't see any issue with the two articles merged and why. Per above.
#{{User|Bop1996}} Per Edo.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - The Pale Piranha is clearly said to be a "subspecies" of Piranha Plant, and it has a different name to boot. However, the TTYD Piranha Plant is ''also'' a unique "type" of Piranha Plant, and also has a different name in many languages. Therefore, the best thing to do would be to give '''''BOTH''''' enemies separate pages, and just talk about how TTYD has four kinds of Piranha Plants on the main [[Piranha Plant]] page. This will be consistent with how we've dealt with various other differently designed enemies that have the same names in some languages, but different names in others: we go with the language(s) that make the most sense (the "Japan is always right" idea used in the old proposal is outdated; Japan is still right about the "Killer Pakkun", but I think English is right about the "Pale Piranha"). This will require a new TPP, and in the meantime, the less changes made, the better: this group of articles is muddled enough as is...
#{{User|Reversinator}} Per all.

===Comments===
Moved proposal here and corrected format...I think...{{User|Marioguy1}}

it's invalid rule 8 says No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old. 
{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}
:Cobold's proposal was made on April 3rd 2010, over a year ago. This proposal is valid. {{User|Marioguy1}}

oh i need to read dates better comment retracted {{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}

I think the japanese stuff should be only featured in trivia,if that.According to the USA and Europe,theyre different things,according to Japan,theyre not.Now someone tel me,what is the rule about the countrie's accuracy on the information?
{{user|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}
:See point 1 [http://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable_Sources_for_Naming here]. {{User:Mario4Ever/Sig}}
According tomthat,it should be fixed. {{user|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}
:'''If there is a conflict of whether to use the American source, European source, or Australian source for naming, the region which had the game released first will be the preferred source'''. Obviously, there is a conflict over which translation to use. Japan released the game first, hence the reliance upon the Japanese translation. {{User:Mario4Ever/Sig}} 


i would also like to site the [[Boomerang Bro.]] proposal the [[King Boo]] Proposal and the [[Spookum]] proposal if it would please this random collection of Mario fans 
{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}

actually they were,they were found on floor 80-89 in the pit of 100 trials,which ironically,has its own article>:( {{User|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}
Does it really matter where it came out first.Most of us play the american version and european version,so thats what it should be. {{unsigned|Yoshiyoshiyoshi}}
:Yes, it does matter. This is an international wiki, not the American and European Mario wiki, and please, remember to sign your comments. {{User:Mario4Ever/Sig}}

two things A: is Kaptain K Rool's vote invalid since he's currently blocked and B: you say this is an english wiki well by that logic [[Swooper|Pat the Bat]], [[Dry Bones|Skelton Koopa]] and [[Ninji|Mini- Ninji]] should all have there own articles because according to [[Hotel Mario]] that's what they were called 
{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}

Also here's the tattle on the Piranha Plant from Paper Mario Thousand year door: That's a Piranha Plant. In fact, I think this is the strongest type of them all. Max HP is 15, Attack is 9 and Defense is 0. Its Attack power is absurdly high... It may look like a normal Piranha Plant, but don't be fooled! It's super-tough! If we get beaten by a flower, we'll never hear the end of it, know what I mean? im no expert but the fact that it says looks like a normal Piranha Plant combined with the fact that they are called Killer Piranhas every where else implies to me that they are not the same thing, also the fact that apparently Japan which released the game calls the pale variety Piranha plants and the fact that they are pale could be explained the same way you explain why the Blue Goomba's in Super Mario Bros. are not combined with [[Gloomba]]s 

{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}

@goombasshoe Will you quit arguing with me?its really annoying.Do you think that a Pale Piranha Plant is a Normal Piranha Plant,but a normal one thats found in the Pit of 100 trials isnt?well either way,why dont we just quit arguing and talk normal? {{user|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}

Well why not create an article for both then?I think the wiki is better with more articles and merging only hurts it.So what you just said,you convinced me that neither are normal piranha plants.{{user|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}

why because im able to use facts to prove you wrong and this is a debate and no i do not think pale piranhas should have there own article i think they are just sun deprived plants like the sun deprived Goomba's

{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}

That's a Pale Piranha. You know about these guys. The famous Piranha Plants. This colorless subspecies is adapted to Boggly Woods. Ah, the wonders of nature! If you try to jump on them, they'll totally chomp on you.
this is the tattle.Its a subspecies. {{unsigned|Yoshiyoshiyoshi}}

@Goomba's Shoe 15: I asked Walkazo a similar question, though it concerned Rosalina'sSoulMate on the Mario Sports Mix FA proposal. Apparently, blocked users have had their votes kept as valid in the past. {{User:Mario4Ever/Sig}}

He was blocked from editing only.{{user|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}
:I made a proposal about this on the main proposals page. So after that passes, we can decide. {{User|Marioguy1}}

{{user|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}
Well just leave it until the proposal is passes.Also,what about the Blooper in Paper Mario TTYD.Is that called just "blooper" in japanese?Because thats no normal blooper.

the boss yeah it's just a blooper 
{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}
It sure is big.even bigger than '''Gooper Blooper'''

which blooper because are you referring to the boss from thousand year door cause he's just a blooper in all dubs 
{{User|Goomba's Shoe15}}
yup.that blooper.{{user|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}

@Walkazo thats and even better idea {{User|yoshiyoshiyoshi}}
:If you want to propose that idea instead, you should ask for this TPP to be deleted. Otherwise, we'd have to wait a month to make another TPP, as it'd be overturning this one's decision to do nothing (Rule 8). Wanting fix the pages ASAP with a different TPP is valid enough reason to have this one deleted (Rule 9). - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 14:48, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

A pale piranha is a totally different subspecies. I know it's weird that the normal Piranha is rarer, only found in Pit-of-100-Trials, and has massive attack power of 9! doesn't mean it's a different Piranha, & doesn't mean Pale Piranhas are the same thing. {{User:BoygeyDude/sig}}

== Wait... ==

EDIT: Never mind, found the answer. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 20:02, 24 March 2015 (EDT)

== TRUST ME ==

Hello, I've been a fan of PMTTYD since it came out 11 years ago. But Pale Piranhas are the regular Piranha Plants. No enemy can have the same original japanese game. And regular exist--these are them.

I'm many years old, please ask me if you want, but please believe me, I'm not lying, this is the answer.

If you want the COMPLETE answer, please ask me OK? --[[User:James Blonde|James Blonde]] ([[User talk:James Blonde|talk]]) 00:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I would just look at the above proposal for why Pale Piranha is separated. {{User:Pyro Guy/sig}} 02:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)

== Re-re-re-merge into Piranha Plant yet again: the Squeakwel ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|15-11|merge}}
This is a case of inconsistent localization, to the point of even being inconsistent with itself. To wit, see [[User talk:LinkTheLefty/Archive 7#Pink Fuzzy|here]] for their tattles across each localization. The only other localization to distinguish this ''at all'' from the typical Packun is European Spanish, and even it states that it is the exact same thing with a color adaptation for the forest. Additionally, let's look at the English tattle:
<blockquote>
That's a Pale Piranha.<br>You know about these guys.<br>The famous Piranha Plants.<br>This colorless subspecies is adapted to Boggly Woods.<br>Ah, the wonders of nature!<br>Max HP is 4, Attack is 2, and Defense is 0.<br>If you try to jump on them, they'll totally chomp on you.
</blockquote>
Note that this seems to be confused with itself, alternating between calling them the very same plants Mario is familiar with and a "colorless subspecies." On that note, it should be emphasized that "subspecies" does not necessarily mean the same thing as how the wiki misused it for years. Additionally, given that this is the localization that gave us such gems as [[Sky Blue Spiny|Spinies coming from pipes]], taking care of [[Li'l Oink|Bubu]], giving [[Toad Town]] several different names, and forcing us into the endless [[Goomboss|Chestnut King]] debate, it's clear that it was a pretty slapdash job at times.

Anyways, this is clearly just as much the normal Piranha Plant as Boggly Woods' Cleft is the normal Cleft; related is how [[Moon Cleft|the final Cleft type]] in the game used the previous normal coloration.

'''EDIT:'''<br>
Apparently at least some people didn't see the link I put up top, so I'll go ahead and put the other tattles here.


{|width=40% cellspacing=0 border=2 cellpadding=3;" style="border-collapse:collapse
|-
!Language
!Tattle
!Translation
|-
|Japanese
|
『パックンフラワー』よ<br>
まいど　おなじみの　デンジャラスな<br>
かみつき<span class="explain" title="はな">花</span>ね<br>
<span class="explain" title="いろ">色</span>は　ふしぎの<span class="explain" title="もり">森</span>に　できおうして<br>
モノクロに　なったみたい<br>
せいめいの　ふしぎを　かんじるわ！<br>
さいだいHPは『4』で<br>
こうげき<span class="explain" title="りょく">力</span>は『2』 ぼうぎょ<span class="explain" title="りょく">力</span>は『0』よ<br>
ジャンプで　ふみつはようと　すると<br>
かみつかれるから　ちゅういしてね
|
Piranha Plant:<br>
The ever familiar and dangerous<br>
biting flower.<br>
Its color while living in Boggly Woods<br>
became monochrome.<br>
I feel the wonder of life!<br>
Maximum HP is 4,<br>
attack power is 2, and defense power is 0.<br>
When you try to jump,<br>
it can bite you.
|-
|European Spanish
|
Es una Planta Piraña Gris.<br>
La misma flor peligrosa<br>
de siempre...<br>
Parece que ha modificado su<br>
coloración para camuflarse<br>
en el Bosque Maravilloso...<br>
PC Máximos: 4<br>
Poder de ataque: 2<br>
Poder de defensa: 0<br>
Ni se te ocurra saltar sobre<br>
ellas, porque te morderán<br>
y te harán daño.
|
It is a Gray Piranha Plant.<br>
The same dangerous flower<br>
as always...<br>
It seems it has modified its<br>
coloration to camouflage itself<br>
in Boggly Woods...<br>
Max HP: 4<br>
Attack Power: 2<br>
Defense Power: 0<br>
Don't even think about jumping on<br>
them, because they will bite you<br>
and they will hurt you.
|-
|European French
|
C'est une Plante piranha.<br>
Une vieille connaissance<br>
aux crocs acérés.<br>
Elle s'est adaptée au<br>
monochrome des Bois insolites.<br>
C'est bizarre la nature!<br>
PC Max: 4, Puissance: 2,<br>
Défense: 0.<br>
Si tu sautes dessus,<br>
tu vas te faire mordre!
|
It is a Piranha Plant.<br>
An old acquaintance<br>
with sharp fangs.<br>
It adapted to<br>
the monochrome of Boggly Woods.<br>
Nature is weird!<br>
Max HP: 4, Power: 2,<br>
Defense: 0.<br>
If you jump on it,<br>
you will get bitten!
|-
|German
|
Das ist eine Piranha-Pflanze,<br>
eine Fleisch fressende Pflan-<br>
ze, die du gut kennst, oder?<br>
Ihre Farbe hat sie wohl<br>
der Umgebung angepasst...<br>
Ein Wunder der Natur!<br>
Max KP: 4, Angriffskraft: 2,<br>
Verteidigung: 0<br>
Wenn du auf diese Pflanzen<br>
springst, beißen sie zu. Ver-<br>
meide also Sprungattacken.
|
This is a Piranha Plant,<br>
a carnivorous plan-<br>
t that you know well, right?<br>
It probably has its color<br>
adapted to the environment...<br>
A wonder of nature!<br>
Max HP: 4, Attack Power: 2,<br>
Defense: 0<br>
If on these plants<br>
you jump, they will bite you. S-<br>
o avoid jumping attacks.
|-
|Italian
|
È una Pianta Piranha!<br>
È il solito vecchio fiore<br>
che morde!<br>
Per mimetizzarsi nel bosco<br>
è diventata monocroma.<br>
La natura è davvero strana!<br>
I suoi PV massimi sono 4,<br>
la potenza è 2, la difesa è 0.<br>
Se pensi di saltarle sopra<br>
stai attento: può mordere!
|
It's a Piranha Plant!<br>
It's the same old flower<br>
that bites!<br>
To blend in in the woods<br>
it has become monochrome.<br>
Nature is really weird!<br>
Its maximum HP is 4,<br>
the power is 2, the defense is 0.<br>
If you plan to jump on it<br>
be careful: it can bite!
|}

As can be seen, the other languages are ''adamant'' this is the same plant from previous adventures. As such, the reference to Mario being familiar with them in the tattle is '''''absolutely''''' a reference to the specific enemy being tattled, and the "subspecies" bit is '''''solely''''' an awkward tack-on for the English localization (or even spitballing from Goombella herself) that ultimately means diddly-squat.

Also, they were called Piranha Plants and didn't have that "subspecies" bit in the tattle in the pre-release [[tcrf:Proto:Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door/Text & Dialogue#The Great Tree Enemies|kiosk demo]].


'''Proposer:''' {{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' <s>August 24, 2021, 23:59 GMT Extended to August 31, 2021, 23:59 GMT Extended to September 7, 2021, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to September 14, 2021, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Let's stem this issue, pipe up with the localization's problems, and leaf things in the proper order. Then this will stop gnawing at me. But this pales compared to some of the other issues...
#{{User|Niiue}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Somethingone}} Per.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} ''TTYD'' has a massive amount of mistakes in its English translation. Per all.
#{{User|Blinker}} The game's original script saying they're Piranha Plants, and the Clefts having a similar situation.
#{{User|Glowsquid}} The other scripts make it sound like a "Goombas are blue in the underground" levels rather than a wholly separate species.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} A closer look at their name across multiple languages shows that they are intended to be the game's "vanilla" Piranha Plants. Per all.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Note that, while Piranha Plant's guidance in ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' does not list some of the most obscure Piranha Plant variants like Tane Packun from ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' or the Piranha Sprout from ''Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker'', it technically does '''not''' skip any Piranha Plants that also debut within the same game ([[Talk:Piranha Plant#This is the Ultimate|barring minor dub oversights]]). Seeing as how it bothers to bring up Killer Packun but not Pale Piranha, the latter would accordingly '''not''' be considered a new variant in ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' (in retrospect, this logic also means that River and Stalking Piranhas being mentioned but not Ice Piranha should beg [[Talk:Ice Piranha Plant#Potential to merge with Frost Piranha|another shot at Frost Piranha]] and, potentially, [[Talk:Lava Piranha#Regarding this and Fire Piranha Plant|Lava Piranha and Petit Piranha]], but that bridge can be crossed later). Additionally from [[Special:Diff/2907705#About Pink Fuzzy...|previous]] [[Special:Diff/2909743#Re:About Pink Fuzzy...|discussion]]: the [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door bestiary|Tattle Log]] order already points to Pale Piranha being the "base" version of Piranha Plant in this game over the "Piranha Plant" enemy, much like how the now similarly-monochrome Cleft is listed before Moon Cleft. Renaming Piranha Plant to Pale Piranha and inventing the "subspecies" bit was [[tcrf:Proto:Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door/Text & Dialogue#The Great Tree Enemies|a fairly late decision by the English localizers]], so in essence, this is basically another flavor of the old Para-Beetle/Parabuzzy situation; if this proposal fails, the monochrome Cleft and blue Spike Top are worth another look for consistency's sake, given that their original colors were given to semi-variants as well. We shouldn't have it both ways now.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} While there's evidence suggesting that originally these Piranha Plants were intended to be colored variants, in the final game there's more than enough evidence pointing out how the Pale Piranhas are intended to be the "vanilla" Piranha Plants. As pointed out by LinkTheLefty, they would have been that in the English localization as well, if they didn't change the tattle at the last minute, making it more flowery.
#{{User|7feetunder}} After thinking about it and thinking about it, I'm going to support this. In addition to everything else that's been said, the main sticking point for me is the inconsistency with Cleft. While the last-minute English rename could been seen as an attempt to correct what is honestly a rather bizarre representation of the species (passing off a color variant as the base species and making the standard coloration a "killer" variant), Cleft is in the same boat, and its name left alone, complete with a "moon" variant using the original coloration.
#{{User|TheDarkStar}} - Per all
#{{User|DannyTheDingo}} Seeing how almost every non-English translation describes Pales as the standard Piranha Plants with a color change, it makes no sense to me anymore for the English localization to matter in this case, especially with that pre-release evidence. Per all.
#{{User|Results May Vary}} Per LinkTheLefty and others.
#{{User|Obsessive Mario Fan}} Per all. Not even '''one''' of the other localizations' tattles call them a subspecies, and their Japanese name is also the same as regular Piranha Plants.
#{{User|Lastro}} - Per all. Although in my opinion, it is a kind of subspecies and should not be compared with the Goomba becoming blue in the underground. Here, the species adapted itself to the gray environment. So it's just a subspecies of Piranha Plants that are gray with nothing else special.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Keyblade Master}} It's not like regular Piranha Plants in this game are only referred to as "Pale Piranhas". The game calls this "a colorless subspecies adapted to Boggly Woods", which pretty much shows that this isn't fully the standard Piranha Plant. I am aware that there is another type of Piranha Plant enemy in this game as well which looks like a normal Piranha Plant, but even that is stated to not be a normal one in the tattle. The line "you know about these guys" could also refer to the entire Piranha Plant line in general. I'm sorry, but to me this is just a case of making the Japanese name the ultimate decider which I do not agree with.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} I think more thought needs to be put into this. Interlanguage names along do not always constitute a merge.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Keyblade Master.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Keyblade.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per Keyblade.
#{{User|Alternis}} Per all.
#{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} Per all.
#{{User|WildWario}} Per all.
<s>#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} The proposal argues a lot of semantics, but to get down to brass tacks, the enemy's name and appearance as well as the "subspecies" qualifier are enough to distinguish it from basic Piranha Plants.</s>

<s>#{{User|DannyTheDingo}} The game referring to Pale Piranhas as "the famous Piranha Plants" was only a reintroduction for the species as a whole, as Pale Piranhas are the first ones to be encountered. Per all.</s>

===Comments===
@Keyblade Master: You could use that argument to support every inconsistent localization, though. The [[Monty Mole (Flower Fields)|Flower Fields Monty Moles]] are stated to be the same as regular Monty Moles in the English version of Paper Mario, but we still have a separate page for them. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 11:34, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
:Those have different stats and a different pallete however. I remember this wiki even split the stronger enemies from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga before the game's remake came out when their English names were identical to their weaker counterparts, but of course had different stats and designs. Of course, now the remake gave those enemies distinct English names, but my point was from before then. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 11:47, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
::What about [[Snifit|Spookums]] and [[Snifit (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)|Snifits]] from Super Mario RPG? {{User:Niiue/sig}} 11:57, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
:::The Snifits are notable individuals, and Spookums are one of the few instances where the different English name is the only thing that makes them seem like a different variation, whereas everything else (behaviour and appearance) is the same. Comparing the latter with Pale Piranha, as I said Piranha Plants aren't just referred to as "Pale Piranhas" throughout TTYD, these have their greyish color to differentiate them alongside a different English name and calling them adapted to Boggly Woods, not to mention the game even has standard-colored Piranha Plants appearing in the audience. In case you bring up the Piranha Plants in the Pit of 100 Trials to counter that, the tattle for those states "It may look like a normal Piranha Plant but don't be fooled", so enough said on that. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 12:21, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
::::Consider how Pale Piranha was not brought up in English SSBU despite Killer Packun being brought up in JP SSBU. Also, it's not just "the Japanese name." It's the name in ''every'' language other than English and Euro-Spanish. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:04, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
::::Pale Piranhas have a unique palette for the same reason as the Clefts in Boggly Woods, and the "subspecies" bit was invented by the English localizers, much like the idea that Dark Lakitus throw pipes. If the English version of TTYD made the unique decision to refer to Clefts as "Grey Clefts" or something, would you want them split? {{User:Niiue/sig}} 09:59, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
:::::I get the feeling now you're just trying to get under my skin here, which is one thing I seriously do not approve. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 10:06, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
::::::There's a fine gap between "debate" and "trying to annoy"... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:12, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
::::::That isn't my intention at all. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 20:28, August 19, 2021 (EDT)

My main gripe is still the fact that's it's referred to as a subspecies adapted to a certain place. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 15:07, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
:And again, "subspecies" does not necessarily mean the same thing as how the wiki misused it for a long time. The other languages do call it an adaptation, but the "subspecies" bit is purely an invention of the English localization, which itself is demonstrably shoddy at best. Additionally, I ''personally'' believe that the same can be applied for many types of color variations we do not split; note that red was treated as a secondary color for P. Plant after the standard green until ''Super Mario World'' (or going by artwork, ''Land''). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:20, August 10, 2021 (EDT)

@Danny That's ignoring the original Japanese script (and all those other translations), where they are described as "the familiar Packun Flower." It's referring to the type being encountered, not the whole family. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:15, August 10, 2021 (EDT)

@Glowsquid: The "underground Goomba" case isn't a good parallel. That is a superficial recolour based on the enemy's surroundings. In RPGs like TTYD, colour-coding typically serves to make an enemy immediately stand out as having distinct stats and/or powers from their closer kin, and I'd wager ''that'' is what applies to Pale Piranhas. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:22, August 18, 2021 (EDT)
:Explain [[Cleft]] and the Japanese/French/German/Italian names, then, as well as how this has the same basic properties as the Forever Forest Piranhas in the previous game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:23, August 18, 2021 (EDT)
:"That is a superficial recolour based on the enemy's surroundings." Yes, and so is this plant. I assume that's why that comparison was made. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:40, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
::I would have hoped that was obvious enough. Indeed, the monochrome scheme was specifically chosen because the surrounding area is monochrome. I just tried to explain that these recolours are typically also driven by gameplay-related principles in RPGs. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 08:22, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
:::The Attack and HP stats of the Pale Piranhas are actually slightly lower than for the Piranha Plants in Paper Mario. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 08:49, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
::::...And the Attack and HP stats of SPM piranha plants is also lower than the PM piranha plants. Does that mean we split the SPM piranha plants? [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 08:54, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
:::::I only said that to correct Koopa con Carne's statement a bit actually. Not to mention SPM is done in a completely different style anyway. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 08:58, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
::::::You are correct, statistics don’t transfer between TTYD and SPM due to the latter’s largely divergent game mechanics, so there’d be no reason to split the SPM Piranha Plant. I think it’s fair to say, anyhow, that stats shouldn’t be the sole driving force for or against distinguishing between two enemy iterations, since they’re always subject to change. (I took Doc’s statement for granted and didn’t bother to research, but I amended my vote so it doesn’t reflect on anything related to stats.) Still, to return to the Pale Piranha conundrum, I think in this case localization is key to how we handle the enemy’s identity: more than half of its names across different languages (going by what’s presented on the page; I haven’t played the game yet) purport it’s a generic Piranha Plant, with only the English and Spanish ones making any sort of distinction. It’s pretty clear the latter couple are doozies made on a whim. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 10:38, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
::::::::Ye, stats between PM64 and TTYD don't necessarily correlate either, having more to do with where on the difficulty curve they are encountered. Look at [[Magikoopa]], for example. In Packun's case, it's a Chapter 3 enemy in PM64 and a Chapter 2 enemy in TTYD, so it'll naturally be lower in TTYD. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:38, August 19, 2021 (EDT)


For completion's sake and by request of {{user|Mister Wu}}, here's the tattles for [[Piranha Plant (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)|Killer Packun]] (provided by {{user|Scrooge200}} along with the Spanish-to-English translation, thanks very much!) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:44, August 25, 2021 (EDT)
{|width=40% cellspacing=0 border=2 cellpadding=3;" style="border-collapse:collapse
|-
!Language
!Tattle
!Translation
|-
|Japanese
|
『キラーパックン』よ<br>
パックンフラワーの<span class="explain" title="なか">中</span>でも<br>
コイツが　さいきょうみたい<br>
さいだいＨＰは『１５』で<br>
こうげき<span class="explain" title="りょく">力</span>は『９』　ぼうぎょ<span class="explain" title="りょく">力</span>は『０』よ<br>
おそろしい　こうげき<span class="explain" title="りょく">力</span>だわ・・・<br>
<span class="explain" title="いっけん">一見</span>　ふつうの　パックンフラワーに<br>
<span class="explain" title="み">見</span>えるけど　なかみは　<span class="explain" title="おお">大</span>ちがいだから<br>
ゆだんしちゃ　ダメよ<br>
こんな　ヘンテコな　フラワーに<br>
やられたら　やりきれないわ
|
Killer Piranha:<br>
Among the Piranha Plants,<br>
This one looks to be the best.<br>
Maximum HP is 15,<br>
Attack power is 9, and defense power is 0.<br>
It's a terrifying power...<br>
At first glance, it looks like a normal Piranha Plant,<br>
but I see it's very different,<br>
So don't let your guard down.<br>
Such a strange flower,<br>
If I'm beaten by it, I won't stand it.
|-
|Spanish
|
Esta Planta Piraña parece<br>
de las más fuertes de<br>
su especie.<br>
PC Máximos: 15<br>
Poder de ataque: 9<br>
Poder de defensa: 0<br>
Ese poder de ataque es<br>
exagerado, terrible...<br>
Por eso cometeríamos un<br>
grave error al pensar que<br>
esta es normal y corriente.<br>
No me haría ninguna<br>
gracia terminar devorada<br>
por un hierbajo como ese...
|
This Piranha Plant seems like<br>
the strongest of<br>
its species. <small>''(this can also mean "kind" or "sort")''</small><br>
Max HP: 15<br>
Attack Power: 9<br>
Defense Power: 0<br>
That attack power is<br>
excessive, terrible...<br>
That is why we would make a<br>
grave mistake in thinking that<br>
this is normal and ordinary.<br>
I wouldn't be<br>
happy to end up devoured<br>
by a weed like that...
|-
|French
|
C'est un Piranha Tueur.<br>
Chez les Plantes piranha,<br>
il n'y a pas pire.<br>
PC Max: 15, Puissance: 9,<br>
Défense: 0.<br>
Ça fait mal!<br>
Ça ressemble à une<br>
Plante piranha ordinaire, mais<br>
la différence est mordante!<br>
Je ne pourrais pas supporter<br>
l'idée de me faire avoir par<br>
une plante aussi bizarre!<br>
|
It's a Killer Piranha.<br>
Among Piranha Plants,<br>
there is no worse.<br>
Max HP: 15, Attack: 9,<br>
Defense: 0.<br>
It hurts!<br>
It looks like an<br>
ordinary Piranha Plant, but<br>
the difference is biting!<br>
I couldn't stand<br>
the idea of being bested by<br>
such a weird plant!
|-
|German
|
Das ist ein Killer-Piranha.<br>
Killer-Piranhas sind die Killer<br>
unter den Piranha-Pflanzen.<br>
Max KP: 15, Angriffskraft: 9,<br>
Verteidigung: 0<br>
Das sind ja echte Killer!<br>
Auf den ersten Blick wirken<br>
sie wie ganz normale Piranha-<br>
Pflanzen...<br>
Aber du solltest dich vor<br>
ihnen extrem hüten.<br>
Es wäre doch zu dumm, von<br>
so einer verrückten Blume<br>
besiegt zu werden, oder?
|
It's a Killer Piranha.<br>
Killer Piranhas are the killers<br>
among the Piranha Plants.<br>
Max HP: 15, Attack Power: 9,<br>
Defense: 0<br>
They are real killers!<br>
At first glance, they look<br>
like normal Piranha<br>
Plants...<br>
But you should<br>
be extremely wary of them.<br>
It would be too stupid if by<br>
such a crazy flower<br>
we were defeated, right?
|-
|Italian
|
È una Pianta Piranha!<br>
Fra le Piante Piranha, questa<br>
è decisamente la più potente.<br>
I suoi PV massimi sono 15,<br>
la potenza è 9, la difesa è 0.<br>
La potenza è strepitosa, no?<br>
A prima vista sembra una<br>
Pianta Piranha normale, ma<br>
la differenza è esorbitante!<br>
Non potrei sopportare<br>
l'idea di essere sconfitta<br>
da questo vegetale!
|
It's a Piranha Plant!<br>
Among the Piranha Plants, this one<br>
it is by far the most powerful.<br>
Its maximum HP is 15,<br>
the power is 9, the defense is 0.<br>
The power is amazing, isn't it?<br>
At first glance, it looks like a<br>
normal Piranha Plant, but<br>
the difference is exorbitant!<br>
I could not bear<br>
the idea of being defeated<br>
by this vegetable!<br>
|}
:The reason why I asked for those is that the internal name and appearance suggest that at the beginning the Pit of 100 Trials Piranha Plants were intended to be the "original" Piranha Plants, as supported by some other Western translations, including the Italian one that [http://www.fti.uab.es/tradumatica/revista/num5/articles/06/06central.htm we know being directly based on the Japanese script rather than the English one]. 

:It should be noted however that, as pointed out by {{User|LinkTheLefty}}, the final English tattle for the Pale Piranha is not based on an earlier Japanese script, but is rather a flowery version of the more accurate translation of the Japanese tattle found in the demo version.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:47, August 29, 2021 (EDT)

Why did you edit the proposal text like that? You've got comments section for additional info, and you went over the six-day limit set in rule 14. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 15:30, September 13, 2021 (EDT)
:Because I wasn't editing the ''intent'' of the proposal. I was putting information that was seemingly overlooked in a more obvious place (and I can't expect people to pay attention to the comments section unless they're actively part of a discussion). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:51, September 14, 2021 (EDT)
::Intent? The rule says nothing about intent so any edit to proposal text counts as a rewrite as the rule currently stands. You're implying breaking rules is okay as long as the intent is for the good cause. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 12:28, September 14, 2021 (EDT)
:::The difference between adding new information to the comments section and adding it to the proposal text is trivial at best, so getting worked up over it seems awfully picky IMO. It's more of an addendum than a straight up rewrite. "Any edit to proposal text counts as a rewrite?" The rule doesn't say ''that'' either, so a case could be made that the rule wasn't even broken - the original proposal text hasn't been changed since day 1, and the new important information is clearly marked "EDIT" to indicate that it wasn't there originally. If anything, this just means that the rule should be rewritten to be more clear so it isn't open to interpretation. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 18:42, September 14, 2021 (EDT)
::::It's not even new information, since it was linked to at the start of the proposal. 19:05, September 14, 2021 (EDT)
::::<s>As if the pale piranha situation couldn’t get more conflicting</s>So does this mean this proposal broke rule 14 or not? Or does it mean this is an edge case that hasn’t been discussed until now? [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 19:18, September 14, 2021 (EDT)
:::::The intent of Rule 14 is to prevent proposals from being drastically rewritten in a way that could change the intent of the proposal or directly affect the votes, i.e. changing the outcomes of certain options or adding new ones late in the proposal. Since this is information that was already being clearly presented close to the beginning of the proposal and none of the original content was changed, it's fine. In cases like these it's best to look at the intent of the action rather than following the rule down to the letter every time. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:30, September 14, 2021 (EDT)