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MarioWiki talk:Naming: Difference between revisions
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:If you try to search or click a link that reads [[#1 Iggy's Castle]], you'd be taken to the Main Page or a nonexistent section in the article respectfully. So while it is used as an anchor point for article headers, placing it at the start of a name will not work, which is what this example is specifically referring to. Additionally, if there was ever a page called "World #1", that wouldn't work either, as searching would just bring you to the [[World]] article to the nonexistent section "1". You actually can't create a page at all with a pound symbol in the name. | :If you try to search or click a link that reads [[#1 Iggy's Castle]], you'd be taken to the Main Page or a nonexistent section in the article respectfully. So while it is used as an anchor point for article headers, placing it at the start of a name will not work, which is what this example is specifically referring to. Additionally, if there was ever a page called "World #1", that wouldn't work either, as searching would just bring you to the [[World]] article to the nonexistent section "1". You actually can't create a page at all with a pound symbol in the name. | ||
:As for other reserved characters, what other ones are there? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 18:37, March 17, 2020 (EDT) | :As for other reserved characters, what other ones are there? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 18:37, March 17, 2020 (EDT) | ||
::On second thought, [[ | ::On second thought, [[mw:Manual:Page_title|the MediaWiki manual]] gives a list of all invalid titles (not all of which are based on containing a single character), so it might be better just to link that. | ||
::I was referring to the fact that # is a reserved character in titles not because it is special in URLs (it has its unique behavior, but can simply be escaped with percent encoding) but because it has special meaning in wikilink markup itself. If the former were the case, then [[? Block|? would also be disallowed in titles]]. [[User:Mathfreak231|math]][[User talk:Mathfreak231|freak]][[Special:Contributions/Mathfreak231|231]] 18:45, March 17, 2020 (EDT) | ::I was referring to the fact that # is a reserved character in titles not because it is special in URLs (it has its unique behavior, but can simply be escaped with percent encoding) but because it has special meaning in wikilink markup itself. If the former were the case, then [[? Block|? would also be disallowed in titles]]. [[User:Mathfreak231|math]][[User talk:Mathfreak231|freak]][[Special:Contributions/Mathfreak231|231]] 18:45, March 17, 2020 (EDT) | ||
On the subject of the ''Super Mario World'' castles, why not just use the plainer names from ''Nintendo Power'' V.4 and the ''Super Mario Advance 2'' Prima guide? The in-game titles may be numbered, but this would circumvent technical restrictions altogether. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:36, April 8, 2020 (EDT) | On the subject of the ''Super Mario World'' castles, why not just use the plainer names from ''Nintendo Power'' V.4 and the ''Super Mario Advance 2'' Prima guide? The in-game titles may be numbered, but this would circumvent technical restrictions altogether. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:36, April 8, 2020 (EDT) | ||
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==Crossover subjects not named in ''Mario'' games== | ==Crossover subjects not named in ''Mario'' games== | ||
I think I've found another odd edge case that isn't covered on this page and I think we could probably use a sentence or two to explain. A while ago I was trying to identify some things from the ''Sonic'' franchise that appear in ''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games'' but are never named in-game, and while I was able to find out what they were after some help, it does raise the question of what to do about naming those articles. At the moment I have them red linked (I haven't created the yet) as Gola and Rainbow Ring, which are official names from ''Sonic'' material that are sourced in the same way that we'd go about getting ''Mario'' stuff. The policy at the moment though says that names need to be sourced from official Nintendo material, so I'm wondering if at the bottom of the "Acceptable sources for naming" section we could use an extra sentence that says something like "''For subjects that originate from other franchises and appear in crossovers with the Mario franchise that are not named in the Mario-related media, an official name from the franchise the subject originated from may be used to title the article instead.''" Probably could use a bit of a reword though, I can't get it to read quite right myself. know this sort of thing does seem like fairly common sense (and I wouldn't be surprised if there were already a couple of articles here that are already named using this logic), but I think having something on this page for it is a good idea. [[User:BBQ Turtle|BBQ Turtle]] ([[User talk:BBQ Turtle|talk]]) 16:50, July 3, 2021 (EDT) | I think I've found another odd edge case that isn't covered on this page and I think we could probably use a sentence or two to explain. A while ago I was trying to identify some things from the ''Sonic'' franchise that appear in ''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games'' but are never named in-game, and while I was able to find out what they were after some help, it does raise the question of what to do about naming those articles. At the moment I have them red linked (I haven't created the yet) as Gola and Rainbow Ring, which are official names from ''Sonic'' material that are sourced in the same way that we'd go about getting ''Mario'' stuff. The policy at the moment though says that names need to be sourced from official Nintendo material, so I'm wondering if at the bottom of the "Acceptable sources for naming" section we could use an extra sentence that says something like "''For subjects that originate from other franchises and appear in crossovers with the Mario franchise that are not named in the Mario-related media, an official name from the franchise the subject originated from may be used to title the article instead.''" Probably could use a bit of a reword though, I can't get it to read quite right myself. know this sort of thing does seem like fairly common sense (and I wouldn't be surprised if there were already a couple of articles here that are already named using this logic), but I think having something on this page for it is a good idea. [[User:BBQ Turtle|BBQ Turtle]] ([[User talk:BBQ Turtle|talk]]) 16:50, July 3, 2021 (EDT) | ||
:I think that's okay, but the staff might think otherwise. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 13:13, December 20, 2022 (CST) | :I think that's okay, but the staff might think otherwise. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 13:13, December 20, 2022 (CST) | ||
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==Expand source priority exception to include regional English differences== | ==Expand source priority exception to include regional English differences== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ProposalOutcome|green|expand source priority exception 4-1}} | |||
This proposal will amend the [[#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|above one]] to prioritize lower-priority British English names in cases where higher-priority American English versions are determined to be incorrect. Currently, there are at least four subjects that this falls under: Boss P. Plant, Mega Sledge Bro, Mega Sledge Bro's Card Chaos, and the ''Mario Party 9'' incarnation of Magikoopa. In British English, these are respectively named Petey Piranha, Sledge Bro, Sledge Bro's Card Chaos, and Kamek, which align with these subjects' overall usual English names. If the proposal passes, Mega Sledge Bro's Card Chaos will be renamed to Sledge Bro's Card Chaos, Mega Sledge Bro and Magikoopa will be mostly replaced with the less-confusing-in-context Sledge Bro and Kamek, and there will be further precedent to use the British English names over their American English equivalents in certain other cases. As Boss P. Plant already had a [[Talk:Petey Piranha#Use the name "Petey Piranha" regarding Super Princess Peach|proposal]], you can look to that for an idea of how a broader scope would be in effect. | This proposal will amend the [[#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|above one]] to prioritize lower-priority British English names in cases where higher-priority American English versions are determined to be incorrect. Currently, there are at least four subjects that this falls under: Boss P. Plant, Mega Sledge Bro, Mega Sledge Bro's Card Chaos, and the ''Mario Party 9'' incarnation of Magikoopa. In British English, these are respectively named Petey Piranha, Sledge Bro, Sledge Bro's Card Chaos, and Kamek, which align with these subjects' overall usual English names. If the proposal passes, Mega Sledge Bro's Card Chaos will be renamed to Sledge Bro's Card Chaos, Mega Sledge Bro and Magikoopa will be mostly replaced with the less-confusing-in-context Sledge Bro and Kamek, and there will be further precedent to use the British English names over their American English equivalents in certain other cases. As Boss P. Plant already had a [[Talk:Petey Piranha#Use the name "Petey Piranha" regarding Super Princess Peach|proposal]], you can look to that for an idea of how a broader scope would be in effect. | ||
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Why should "Magikoopa" be incorrect? I thought it was established that's an issue of a localization being inconsistent with its own changes, but no more a "mistake" than any use of either "Magikoopa" or "Kamek," since that was, is, and always will be a standard character/species case. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:12, December 17, 2022 (EST) | Why should "Magikoopa" be incorrect? I thought it was established that's an issue of a localization being inconsistent with its own changes, but no more a "mistake" than any use of either "Magikoopa" or "Kamek," since that was, is, and always will be a standard character/species case. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:12, December 17, 2022 (EST) | ||
:@Hewer: Moving Mega Sledge Bro's Card Chaos was a [[Talk:Sledge Bro#Merging Mega Sledge Bro with Sledge Bro|suggestion]] I made a while back to sensibly pair with the Mega Sledge Bro merge, but the [[Talk:Mega Sledge Bro|proposal]] neglected it, so I'm bundling it here. @Doc: True for the most part, but the keyword is "usual" - there does look like a semiconscious effort on the localizer's part to '''usually''' make "Kamek" apply to what's taken to be a character and "Magikoopa" apply to the species (you can even see this in the ''Yoshi's Island'' intro, where "Kamek, the evil Magikoopa" is scribbled in). If they ended up with identical names, what would've probably happened is that Kamek would be interpreted as the main article and Magikoopa would be the "(species)" article. It is what it is. <small>I don't believe flipping the name in this instance will affect that much in the long run in the event that some form of merge is later attempted, however.</small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:00, December 18, 2022 (EST) | :@Hewer: Moving Mega Sledge Bro's Card Chaos was a [[Talk:Sledge Bro#Merging Mega Sledge Bro with Sledge Bro|suggestion]] I made a while back to sensibly pair with the Mega Sledge Bro merge, but the [[Talk:Mega Sledge Bro|proposal]] neglected it, so I'm bundling it here. @Doc: True for the most part, but the keyword is "usual" - there does look like a semiconscious effort on the localizer's part to '''usually''' make "Kamek" apply to what's taken to be a character and "Magikoopa" apply to the species (you can even see this in the ''Yoshi's Island'' intro, where "Kamek, the evil Magikoopa" is scribbled in). If they ended up with identical names, what would've probably happened is that Kamek would be interpreted as the main article and Magikoopa would be the "(species)" article. It is what it is. <small>I don't believe flipping the name in this instance will affect that much in the long run in the event that some form of merge is later attempted, however.</small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:00, December 18, 2022 (EST) | ||
==Establish policy for the naming of crossover subjects== | |||
{{SettledTPP}} | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|6-0|add both}} | |||
Quite a while ago, I brought up a couple of gaps in the policy when it comes to how we deal with naming pages for crossover subjects, there was a bit of discussion but it kind of fell flat and I wasn't quite sure how to pick it back up-. Either way, I probably should have come back to this proposal sooner- but at least this won't really affect much of our ''Super Smash Bros.'' content now. There's two things I want to cover, but they're fairly interconnected, both being about names from other series, so I'm lumping them together in one proposal. | |||
The first is about naming things that aren't named in the crossover instalments with the ''Mario'' franchise, but are named in their home series. At the moment, our policy only covers how to go about naming things based on Nintendo sources relating to the ''Mario'' series, but it doesn't really say what to do about these occasional cases. My main experience of this comes from ''Sonic'' elements in ''Mario & Sonic'' games, and I have held off on making a few pages because of it. Examples of these include Golas and Rainbow Rings in the Wii version of ''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games'', which I think are notable enough to have pages but aren't named in-game. This goes both ways a bit too, as Bullet Bills appear in the Nintendo DS version of ''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games'' but are not named in the game. Therefore, I think it's worth adding a sentence at the bottom of the "Acceptable sources for naming" section that reads "''For subjects that originate from other franchises and appear in crossovers with the Mario franchise that are not named in the Mario-related media, an official name from the franchise the subject originated from, derived from similar sources to those listed above, may be used to title the article instead.''" The wording can be changed a little if needs be, I'm not always the best at writing this sort of thing, but I think it gets the gist across, we don't have to give it a conjectural name but we're not using a fan name here either. | |||
The other is about name changes in the home franchise that haven't carried across to the ''Mario'' franchise. The example we had for this was Egg Pawns, as they were renamed to Eggpawns in the ''Sonic'' franchise, hence the page was moved, but the name hadn't changed in a ''Mario'' release (Please not this isn't a perfect example as the next game was a ''Mario'' release and renamed them back to Egg Pawns). So, to save a kerfuffle if a similar change comes up in the future, I think we should add a sentence to the Name Changes section along the lines of "''If the subject is from a third-party franchise, and has since had its name changed outside of Mario-related media, then only the most recent or commonly used name following the policy above from crossovers with the Mario franchise is used as the article's title rather than the newest overall name.''" Changes to the wording are welcome suggestions if you think there's something I haven't hit the mark on here. | |||
To my knowledge, this doesn't affect any existing pages and I don't intend for this policy to mean that any pages have to get shuffled around without further proposals, but if there is something I've missed that would be affected, then please let me know and amendments can be made as necessary. My main aim for this proposal is just to get some policy down where there wasn't some before, just to cover any other future incidences where this stuff might come up. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|BBQ Turtle}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': May 14, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
===Add both=== | |||
#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per proposal | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal (though for the second policy, I'll suggest a wording change from "a third-party franchise" to "a different franchise that crosses over with ''Mario''"). | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. | |||
#{{user|Shokora}} – I can't think of examples at the moment, but I think it's a good addition to codify into policy. The proposed wording seems to cover all ground too. | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all. | |||
===Only add the external series name policy=== | |||
===Only add the retroactive renaming policy=== | |||
===Add neither=== | |||
===Comments=== | |||
Would the proposal for example impact [[Kinoko mark]]'s name? [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 12:06, April 30, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:To be completely honest, I've read through the discussion and I'm not sure that I totally follow where the naming conflict is coming into this, so I don't know if I can say for sure at the moment. [[User:BBQ Turtle|BBQ Turtle]] ([[User talk:BBQ Turtle|talk]]) 13:10, April 30, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::In short, we have an official Japanese name that specifically refers to this object in this specific game, but not an English name (it comes from the other Excite games instead) [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 16:18, April 30, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::OK, well if I'm understanding this right, then I'd probably say no. It sounds like that object only appears in that one game (please correct me if that's wrong) and we have a name for it. It sounds liek it's a different item from the one from the original ''Excitebike'' anyway? Sorry, I don't know enough about this to come down with a good judgement. This isn't designed to override the other policies, it's like another last-case thing if none of the ''Mario''-related sources give you a name and to avoid having to use conjectural ones when an official one exists somewhere. [[User:BBQ Turtle|BBQ Turtle]] ([[User talk:BBQ Turtle|talk]]) 16:48, April 30, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::It is identical in functionality, but not in appearance, and has a different JP name. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 16:50, April 30, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::::OK, so thinking about this more, and trying to get my head around the situation better, then I don't think this proposal will directly affect the name of the article. To decide the name for that, I think it would have to be decided whether or not it is a distinct item from the Cool Zone- which is a different discussion in itself. From what I understand, at least some of this policy is kind of an unwritten rule anyway, so it could be named either way regardless of whether this passes. This is mostly just to get this stuff in writing. [[User:BBQ Turtle|BBQ Turtle]] ([[User talk:BBQ Turtle|talk]]) 14:01, May 3, 2023 (EDT) | |||
Thanks for the suggestion Hewer, I'll incorporate that wording if this passes. [[User:BBQ Turtle|BBQ Turtle]] ([[User talk:BBQ Turtle|talk]]) 13:10, April 30, 2023 (EDT) | |||
==Request for admin to change foreign language name example== | |||
{{Talk}} | |||
Per a [[Talk:Chomp_(stomping)#Move_to_Chomp_.28stomping.29|recently decided proposal]], [[Bound Wanwan]] has been moved to [[Chomp (stomping)]]. It is currently used as the example of an article with a foreign-language title, and shouldn't be since it no longer has a foreign-language title. Perhaps it could now reference something like [[Burner Heihō]]? Just one example, there are many potential articles that work in the [[:Category:Articles with titles from other languages|relevant category]]. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 04:10, August 24, 2023 (EDT) | |||
== On the revised [[MarioWiki:Naming#Derived names|Derived names]] section == | |||
{{talk}} | |||
It's a bit unclear. Does it mean that subjects like [[leaping flame]], [[green enemy]], and [[green fish]] require a "derived" conjectural template? Not that I feel any particular way about this revised policy, I'd just like some clarification. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:43, May 20, 2024 (EDT) | |||
:Well "green enemy" is a direct translation of the Japanese name, whereas that's not the case with the other two. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|talk]]) 09:46, May 20, 2024 (EDT) | |||
::The section doesn't discriminate between English and foreign-language descriptions. It just says that an English conjectural name may be derived from a descriptor if it features the only semblance of an official name for the subject (implying that descriptor can be in any language). {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:52, May 20, 2024 (EDT) | |||
:::(GOSH DARN EDIT CONFLICT!) Hmmm...interesting. "Green enemy" already has a conjectural template, despite it being a direct translation of Japanese. And I wouldn't say "discriminate", I would say "distinguish", which is true. Perhaps a "derived from another language" template? But you do have a point. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|talk]]) 09:55, May 20, 2024 (EDT) | |||