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Talk:Bandit: Difference between revisions
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== Bandits are not Shy Guys == | == Bandits are not Shy Guys == | ||
Appearances alone are not enough to claim that Bandits are a subspecies of Shy Guys. Considering the discussion at the top and LTL's comment, would anyone complain if I started making edits to remove this? {{User:Time Turner/sig}} | Appearances alone are not enough to claim that Bandits are a subspecies of Shy Guys. Considering the discussion at the top and LTL's comment, would anyone complain if I started making edits to remove this? {{User:Time Turner/sig}} | ||
:Any proof they aren't Shy Guys? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 19:28, 6 May 2015 (EDT) | :Any proof they aren't Shy Guys? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 19:28, 6 May 2015 (EDT) | ||
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== Decide if Bandits are a sub-species of Shy Guys == | == Decide if Bandits are a sub-species of Shy Guys == | ||
{{Settled TPP}} | |||
{{ | {{Proposal outcome|failed|6-10|bandits are shy guys}} | ||
The similar appearances of Bandits and Shy Guy aren't enough to link the two species together. | The similar appearances of Bandits and Shy Guy aren't enough to link the two species together. | ||
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===Bandits are not Shy Guys (make changes)=== | ===Bandits are not Shy Guys (make changes)=== | ||
#{{User|Time Turner}} Per me. | #{{User|Time Turner}} Per me.<br><s>{{User|Baby Luigi}} I'd argue that the Bandit's appearance IS proof that they're not related to Shy Guys. Second, I'd go as far to say that Snufits are not Shy Guys. Basically, Shy Guys are enemies that usually have "Guy" at the end of their name, like [[Fat Guy]], [[Fly Guy]], [[Mariachi Guy]], [[Groove Guy]]. Snifits and Bandits don't have the "Guy" suffix in their name, therefore not drawing any connections to Shy Guys outside of being robed, masked people. And this isn't some sort of rule I made up. Nearly every enemy that has "Guy" in their name and looks like a Shy Guy (so barring Fry Guy and such) can safely be classified as "Shy Guys", as they all share the same mask feature, which is pretty much a trademark symbol for Shy Guys. Considering that Bandits don't have that...well, again, I doubt they're Shy Guys. I agree that they should at most be just related species.</s> | ||
#{{User|Burningdragon25}} They don't look like it so, per all! | #{{User|Burningdragon25}} They don't look like it so, per all! | ||
#{{User|Lumastar}} Per all. The outfit is literally the only major similarity between the two, and even then the Bandit's outfit makes it appear more human while a Shy Guy's outfit makes it appear remotely alien. | |||
#{{User|SJ}} Per all | |||
#{{User|Marshal Dan Troop}} No evidence that they are shy guys other then speculation. | |||
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I definitely agree with the notion to do away with certain terminology, but per the original observation about YIDS museum categorization that indicates they're technically unrelated. As it stands, this proposal is explicitly about determining if Bandits are actually a ''sub-species'' (the current Mario Wiki implied definition of it) - whether or not Bandits are "conceptually" Shy Guys is a separate argument. | |||
===Bandits are Shy Guys (do nothing)=== | ===Bandits are Shy Guys (do nothing)=== | ||
#{{User|LudwigVon}} I think they are Shy Guy. They wear a mask like Shy Guy. The bandits wears a tunic that looks much like those worn by the Shy Guy with the exception of color. Several Sub -Species of Shy Guy and Bandit are similar to both. So I think we should believe that the Bandits are Shy Guy until good evidence. | |||
#{{User|TheHelper100}} There most certainly [[Shy Guy]]s because appearance is one thing but like LudwigVon said they have multiple colored clothes like shy guys and have a lot of sub-species of themselves besides I look at a Bandit and immediately think of a Shy Guy so I go with there Shy Guys. | |||
#{{User|Pyro Guy}} There are many confirmed species of Shy Guy that don't have 'Guy' in their name. [[Snifit]] is one example. And they have their most distinctive feature- the mask and strap- put on both of them. Also, the overall 'dress code' is the same, bar the belt is replaced by a stripe. So that is why I think that Bandits are a species of Shy Guy. Also, "''they all share the same mask feature, which is pretty much a trademark symbol for Shy Guys.''" | |||
#{{User|Walkazo}} - They're clearly conceptually based on Shy Guys and ''do'' bear clear resemblance to them, and we're doing ourselves and the readers no favours by thoroughly severing the connection. It's like how things like Hammer Bros. and Clubbas are still clearly Koopas: the only difference here is that while there's a general [[Koopa (species)|Koopa page]] and [[:Category:Koopas|category]], there's no umbrella for Shy Guys and their kin, just [[Shy Guy]] itself and [[:Category:Shy Guys|its category]], so the Bandits get put in there by default. Admittedly, the category stuff ''does'' feel like it's going a bit too far (like putting H-bros, into a "Koopa Troopas" category would), but a better solution would to make the Bandit category a subcategory of Shy Guys, allowing for the connection without having the two sets of pages mixed up together. As for "subspecies", this is a perfect example of why we should get rid of its usage altogether across the wiki, because it implies a much stronger relatedness than most pages actually have: just saying Bandits are a "derived species" would be far more accurate, like how Koopa Strikers, Koopeleons and Electro-Koopas are all "derived" from Koopa Troopas, but certainly aren't members of the same species (despite what the poorly-titled Koopa umbrella page suggests: another thing we should fix). | |||
#{{User|Toadbrigade5}} Per all, and just another note: The bandits that swap Baby Mario for a shy guy are working directly with Shy Guys, something Shy Guys of all subspecies commonly do. Just saying, not really a point, but just something I felt deserved to be mentioned. | |||
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Walkazo | |||
#{{User|Binarystep}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Mario}} Definitely NOT a subspecies, but Bandits have close enough resemblance to have a "related" or "derived" species mention, and they can fit within the Shy Guy species navbox (into its own section, not lumped with Fly Guy, Fat Guy, Stupid Guy, Sleeping Guy, etc.) | |||
#{{User|ShyGuy8}}Per All. They may not look the same buy they are still relatable. | |||
#{{User|BabyLuigi64}} Changing vote, per Walkazo. | |||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
What proof is there they ''aren't'' Shy Guys? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 01:30, 24 May 2015 (EDT) | What proof is there they ''aren't'' Shy Guys? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 01:30, 24 May 2015 (EDT) | ||
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::Barring the Japanese name and the robe points, one could use that to say Snifits aren't Shy Guys either. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 01:51, 24 May 2015 (EDT) | ::Barring the Japanese name and the robe points, one could use that to say Snifits aren't Shy Guys either. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 01:51, 24 May 2015 (EDT) | ||
:::...Which is exactly what BL's arguing as well. Your point? Also, you can't just say "well, what's the proof that it's ''not'' what you say" without providing anything in return, especially after I've already provided '''multiple''' points, as BL listed. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} | :::...Which is exactly what BL's arguing as well. Your point? Also, you can't just say "well, what's the proof that it's ''not'' what you say" without providing anything in return, especially after I've already provided '''multiple''' points, as BL listed. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} | ||
::::I missed that part of BL's vote because I'm a moron. Anyway, I'm actually trying to find something official calling them Shy Guys (hence why I didn't vote yet). [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 19:12, 24 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::::If there's nothing outright stating they are Shy Guys or not, investigation and inferences drawn from available evidence is a far more powerful persuasive tool than the argument of simply a lack of an official source. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:19, 25 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
By the way, Time Tuner, this proposal will affect several pages, including [[Slugger]] and [[Green Glove]] (who really shouldn't be called "Bandits" in the first place anyway). Just letting you know that. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 01:41, 24 May 2015 (EDT) | By the way, Time Tuner, this proposal will affect several pages, including [[Slugger]] and [[Green Glove]] (who really shouldn't be called "Bandits" in the first place anyway). Just letting you know that. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 01:41, 24 May 2015 (EDT) | ||
:Duly noted. Perhaps the follow-up could be about those stray Bandit sub-species... {{User:Time Turner/sig}} | :Duly noted. Perhaps the follow-up could be about those stray Bandit sub-species... {{User:Time Turner/sig}} | ||
::Also, [[Zeus Guy]] also seems to be an exception to the Shy Guy species rule (well not really, they don't have "Ho" in their Japanese name, a feature that -probably- all Shy Guy species have). {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:12, 24 May 2015 (EDT) | ::Also, [[Zeus Guy]] also seems to be an exception to the Shy Guy species rule (well not really, they don't have "Ho" in their Japanese name, a feature that -probably- all Shy Guy species have). {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 15:12, 24 May 2015 (EDT) | ||
:::[[Dancing Spear Guy]]s (Yariyari Dansā) don't. [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 18:25, 25 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::They don't count probably because they're a subspecies of [[Spear Guy]]. Logic says this: | |||
::::A: Spear Guys are Shy Guys | |||
::::B: Dancing Spear Guys are Spear Guys | |||
::::C: Therefore, Dancing Spear Guys are Shy Guys | |||
{{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 18:29, 25 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::What about both types of [[Chuck Guy]]s (''Ūrara'' and ''Ōrara'')? [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 18:33, 25 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::Some Shy Guys don't even have "Guy" in the English name ([[Glum Reaper]], [[Greaper]], [[Springer]], [[Stretch (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|Stretch]], [[Train Bandit]]). [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 18:36, 25 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::And according to TMK, regular Spear Guys are called ''Yari Dansā'' in Japan (at least in ''Paper Mario'', notably, they're called ''Yarihō'' in the ''Yoshi'' series, where they also act slightly differently by carrying shields). [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 18:38, 25 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::::I don't count Super Mario RPG enemies, as I'm well aware they're called "Shyster" (just as how various other enemies in Super Mario RPG have strange English names, like Cheep-Cheep for example). It's just a general rule, it's not a rule set in stone. The difference is that those enemies have the trade-mark Shy Guy appearance, with the same mask and body build. Bandit doesn't. He has a different mask, different robes, and hands for hands instead of nubs in which what Shy Guys have. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 18:45, 25 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::::I can see your point about the appearance (that's also the reason I haven't voted and prefer to find actual evidence in a guide that they're Shy Guys). [[User:Binarystep|Binarystep]] ([[User talk:Binarystep|talk]]) 18:51, 25 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
Okay, a bit relevant to this proposal, but is [[Porcupuffer]] a Cheep-Cheep, then? {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:20, 24 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
:Let's pick this apart one at at time, mkay? {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 17:21, 24 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
Sigh, some of these voters are demonstrating exactly WHY this voting system is flawed >_> {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 00:13, 26 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
:It's not like the opposition is enough to overturn your ''infallible'' reasoning this time, sis. {{User:Mario/sig}} 19:13, 26 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
::I wouldn't mind if I got a convincing opposition to my vote. What is getting opposed is not a reasonable opposition. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 00:37, 27 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
Bandits aren't Shy Guys because they steal items in Paper Mario games so, that is why they're different! [[User:Burningdragon25|Burningdragon25]] ([[User talk:Burningdragon25|talk]]) 10:25, 26 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
:''...What?'' {{User:Time Turner/sig}} | |||
::Um, dude, you do realize Shy Guys DO steal items in the original Paper Mario? {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 17:23, 26 May 2015 (EDT) | |||
"''As for "subspecies", this is a perfect example of why we should get rid of its usage altogether across the wiki, because it implies a much stronger relatedness than most pages actually have: just saying Bandits are a "derived species" would be far more accurate, like how Koopa Strikers, Koopeleons and Electro-Koopas are all "derived" from Koopa Troopas, but certainly aren't members of the same species (despite what the poorly-titled Koopa umbrella page suggests: another thing we should fix).''" | |||
Per all the way. "Subspecies" isn't even used correctly in this wiki. That this wiki is actively misinforming me while confusing several readers is ''not'' a good sign. I remember subspecies being used as a term for minor, but coherent differences ''within'' a species, generally divided by region; e.g. woodhouse scrub jay vs. California scrub jay; the several dark-eyed junco variations; Audubon yellow-rumped warbler vs. Myrtle yellow-rumped warbler. I hope Walkazo understands what I'm talking about. But ''this'' usage is totally misleading as it implies they're simply species based off a parent species. That's how ''I'' understood from being in this wiki for way too long. | |||
''Thank you'', MarioWiki. You failed zoology. {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:12, 3 June 2015 (EDT) | |||
:Yeah, a more authentic use of "subspecies" would be the red and blue [[Spike Top]]s (with the additional [[Red Spike Top]] being a separate species on the side - like the Gilded Flicker to the Yellow/Red-Shafted Northern Flicker subspecies pair), but we don't even use it there. (But keep in ind that most cases, like red and blue Bandits, multicoloured Cheep-Cheep and different Koopa shell colours don't run by geographical divisions (because multiple colours occur in single games), and so, aren't subspecies, just [[wikipedia:Polymorphism (biology)|polymorphisms]].) Anyway, these latest TPPs are convincing me that something really needs to be done about the term, so I'm probably gonna make a Proposal about it tomorrow; no sense waiting until these proposals are over since the subject's not in direct conflict or anything (but I ''do'' need to wait until I'm not falling asleep). - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 21:36, 3 June 2015 (EDT) | |||
::I had to disagree with keeping Bandits the same "species" as Shy Guys, personally I always saw them as different things. Maybe they share similarities, but I really don't see Bandits as Shy Guys, especially considering we have a myriad of "Guy" (or "Ho") species that are clearly intended to be Shy Guys and the similarities aren't enough for me to draw the connection. I'm not advocating completely separating the line, I just want to say, "yeah, bandits are related to shy guys, we can add them to 'related species' but they aren't shy guys period". The Porcupuffer thing is more clear-cut out than this imo. Again, just personal bias and I'm just using my logic to justify it. | |||
::Or just ---- it, we can just wait for your proposal to come {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 23:19, 3 June 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::Bird lady 'kazo isn't advocating to keep Bandits as the same species as Shy Guys, per se. Baby Luigi, you're technically agreeing with her with the "they share similarities" and how you don't advocate "completely separating the line". You agree with her fundamentally. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:36, 5 June 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::What I'm saying is more like how birds are derived from dinosaurs, and so, are technically dinosaurs, but are different enough that we talk about them separately. Similarly, Bandits are ultimately based on Shy Guys (and bear some similarities as a result), and therefore should be in the "derived species" umbrella, but are different enough that they should be talked about separately overall. Meanwhile, "related species" are things that are branches from a common ancestor (i.e. pterosaurs and dinosaurs - two separate reptile lineages) or similar by chance (i.e. pterosaurs and bats - convergent evolution of membranous wings). - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 22:46, 6 June 2015 (EDT) | |||
== Bandits as Shy Guys == | |||
For future reference, ''Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser'' classifies these as Shy Guy Minions, confirming them to be Shy Guys; note the same game proves Hammer Bros. and Magikoopas are '''not''' considered Koopa Troopas. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:57, November 29, 2021 (EST) | |||
== SMW2YI Variant/Relatives == | |||
{{talk}} | |||
Are we sure Green Glove/Zeus Guy etc. are direct variants of Bandits as opposed to relatives, aside from being lanky Shy Guys? I know we consider Snifits and Beezos to be variants of normal Shy Guys when they were all introduced at once, but this is a different case here. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:29, October 8, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:[[File:Banditartwork1.png|thumb|100px]] | |||
:I agree, especially when considering the Bandit's original artwork, which shows it with the same proportions as a regular Shy Guys. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:31, October 8, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::Consider that they appear together in [[The Cave of the Bandits]]. Not "The Cave of the Tall Shy Guys," but "The Cave of the '''Bandits'''." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:52, October 8, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::I don't recall Grunts appearing in this level (and their mask also looked different, taking up the whole head, though you might say that's redundant since it's still shaped like a Shy Guy's head) --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:20, October 8, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::I guess Grunts are kinda different, being lickable and stompable like normal Shy Guys (at least when bareheaded), while Zeus Guys and the baseball boys can't be eaten, nor defeated with a single stomp, like Bandits. Still, lacking the Bandit's whole namesake gimmick, they feel more "members of the same group" rather than "subtypes". Would "subject origin" work here? I can never tell with these infobox parameters. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:09, October 8, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::::I agree! Their faces also look different from normal Bandits too. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:31, October 9, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::::(I mainly intended to save the subject_origin parameter for genericized subjects, like how Sidesteppers are based on normal crabs despite those technically appearing later, but that's not too important now.) I think this is overcomplicating matters a little bit. Going back to Doc's "The Cave of the Bandits" example, basic Bandits and Coin Bandits are actually outnumbered by Lava Drops and Little Skull Mousers (a fact that the [[tcrf:Proto:Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island/ys romX 0#World 6|early name]] apparently picked up on); but if we count Sluggers as Bandits, then it's roughly tied to each, and just adding Green Gloves and maybe Zeus Guys to the mix tips them in the majority, thus making more sense of the final name. The better question would be where Grunt fits in, given it's arguably the most different. If we're going to put aside the shape/proportions, there are still other physical similarities at play. Consider that Green Gloves, Sluggers, Grunts, and Zeus Guys all have Bandit hands/gloves, and except for the sleeves and Zeus Guy's black belt (which visually suggests a similar motif over Shy Guy's buckled belt), they all have Bandit's striped clothing. Variants don't always have to take on the namesake quality of their parent subject. I would say that Green Glove and Slugger are relatively safe to consider Bandits, and Grunt and Zeus Guy would be reasonable assumptions for simplicity's sake. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:45, October 13, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::::I guess that could work. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:56, October 13, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::::::Regarding the visual similarities, well, that's true, but a) white gloves aren't that unique a design element, they're the logical choice for making poses read well b) the baseball enemies' artwork depict them wearing brown belts instead; c) the modern design for Bandit has the stripe as a rim of sorts, while Grunt's appearance in YNI uses the original belt-like stripe design, while also having a color scheme reminiscent of regular Shy Guys. As for the level name, I'll point out that most of [[What's Gusty Taste Like]] doesn't feature Gusties. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:52, October 13, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::::::[[Scary Skeleton Goonies!]] featured more Dancing Guys than the enemies the level is the namesake of, now that you mention it. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:43, October 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::::::For the Shy Guy family? Hands are very unique. It basically dwindles down to the Bandits and their oddball YI cousins. Maybe it is a readability thing, but in that case, why not redesign Shy Guys in general? We've got no shortage of Shy Guys that can use the extra readability, such as Mace Guys, relaying Boo Guys, etc. As for the Slugger & Green Glove artwork, keep in mind there's other art oddities like the miscolored green Cheep Cheep - I think if they wanted to update the sprite design in ''Yoshi's Island DS'' just like the game's Shy Guys, that could have easily been done. Also consider that they apparently kept revising the designs, and [[tcrf:Development:Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island/Sprites#Banks 46-47 (Standard sprites 4)|early versions]] more closely resemble the artwork. Level titles? Well sure, they're descriptive and tell you either what feature the level is introducing or its notable setpiece. The Japanese level title of The Cave Of The Bandits, however, is more specific; it's more like "The Cave Filled To The Brim With Bandits", not "The Cave With A Moderate Amount Of Bandits" or "The Cave Where You Can Find Bandits". But that does bring me to an interesting aside: I looked up the prototype version of the level slot, and while it's pretty different to the point it's probably mostly placeholder, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av_1LSsp_As&t=920s see] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av_1LSsp_As&t=960s this.] In earlier version of the game, Yoshi can lick up Bandits and spit them out, pretty similar to unhelmeted Grunts (obviously cruder). So the Grunt behavior may be a leftover from some of Bandit's behavior. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:27, October 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::No, no, i wasn't on about the Shy Guy family here... I was just saying that the Skeleton Goonies were outnumbered by another enemy, and this one specifically, populate the level more than any other enemy. The fact that this specific enemy is a Shy Guy subtype is entirely irrelevant to my point. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:33, October 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::Like I said, though, the level titles are meant to introduce features or highlight setpieces. Spear Guys were already introduced in the jungle areas. That level introduces Flightless Skeleton Goonies, and sets the vibe for the rest of World 6. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:44, October 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::I see... --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:50, October 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::::Most of the D. Spear Guys in Scary Skeleton Goonies are in a difficult-to-find optional bonus area, actually. (Also he was mostly responding to Blinker.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:22, October 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||