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Template talk:Foreign names: Difference between revisions
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==(First topic)== | |||
How are we to handle different translations into the same language? Case in point, the page for the [[Fountain]] lists its French name as "Salle de bains", which I presume is the name in the PAL version of SMG, because the NTSC French version calls it "la Fontaine". How should one remark both names? [[User:Gus|Gus]] 03:34, 23 October 2008 (EDT) | How are we to handle different translations into the same language? Case in point, the page for the [[Fountain]] lists its French name as "Salle de bains", which I presume is the name in the PAL version of SMG, because the NTSC French version calls it "la Fontaine". How should one remark both names? [[User:Gus|Gus]] 03:34, 23 October 2008 (EDT) | ||
:Actually, I didn't even know that ''Mario'' games are available in different languages in North America. Are there more languages in North American versions (European ones usually offer five languages)? And what about Latin America, do they get ''Mario'' games in Spanish and Portuguese or just the English versions? And what is Rosalina named in NTSC French version, Harmonie like in French European version or Rosalina? Uh, to answer your question, I'd just enter both names like done [[Spiny#Foreign Names|here]]. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 06:11, 23 October 2008 (EDT) | :Actually, I didn't even know that ''Mario'' games are available in different languages in North America. Are there more languages in North American versions (European ones usually offer five languages)? And what about Latin America, do they get ''Mario'' games in Spanish and Portuguese or just the English versions? And what is Rosalina named in NTSC French version, Harmonie like in French European version or Rosalina? Uh, to answer your question, I'd just enter both names like done [[Spiny#Foreign Names|here]]. --[[User:Grandy02|Grandy02]] 06:11, 23 October 2008 (EDT) | ||
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== Retitle == | == Retitle == | ||
The proposal above decided that English would not become part of the template, so that's not what this question is about. However, I still think that "foreign" seems a little offputting of a title since I see it as a term that's relative to where someone is around the world (for example, an English speaker who lives in Japan wouldn't see Japanese as "foreign"), though I can't think of a better name. Are there any suggestions? [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 23:30, January 16, 2025 (EST) | The proposal above decided that English would not become part of the template, so that's not what this question is about. However, I still think that "foreign" seems a little offputting of a title since I see it as a term that's relative to where someone is around the world (for example, an English speaker who lives in Japan wouldn't see Japanese as "foreign"), though I can't think of a better name. Are there any suggestions? [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 23:30, January 16, 2025 (EST) | ||
:I am an American English speaker, so my perspective should not be weighed as heavily as that of others. However, because American English is the {{wp|lingua franca}} of our site, the application of "foreign" is correct in relation to Super Mario Wiki. For example, on our sister wiki Mario's Castle, English is among their foreign names because the lingua franca of their wiki is German. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:58, January 16, 2025 (EST) | :I am an American English speaker, so my perspective should not be weighed as heavily as that of others. However, because American English is the {{wp|lingua franca}} of our site, the application of "foreign" is correct in relation to Super Mario Wiki. For example, on our sister wiki Mario's Castle, English is among their foreign names because the lingua franca of their wiki is German. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:58, January 16, 2025 (EST) | ||
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"NIOL" is short for "Names in other languages," which could already be implied by the section heading itself. | "NIOL" is short for "Names in other languages," which could already be implied by the section heading itself. | ||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br> | '''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}} (blocked)<br> | ||
'''Deadline''': April 7, 2025, 23:59 GMT | '''Deadline''': April 7, 2025, 23:59 GMT | ||
===Support=== | ===Support=== | ||
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal. | <s>#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal.</s> | ||
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} ヽ(ー_ー )ノ I agree with [[#Retitle|Koopa con Carne]]. Plus, [[#Change Japanese language code to "Jpn"?|with parameters renamed]], this template is already partially unviewable in older page revisions normally, so that part is not much of a concern (you can hit edit to look at source text). | |||
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} A) PorpleBot has been used many times before to rewrite a piece of syntax across thousands of pages in a matter of moments. B) The proposed renaming may break the template in an article's previous versions, but the changes that were logged to the contents of the NIOL charts would still be easily viewable. Every article revision has a log showing precisely what changes occurred in syntax. Also refer to what LTL says in their vote: the template is already broken in history revisions to begin with. C) A word can't be "foreign" to a ''language''. Languages are a tool, not a person or some other living entity. If this reading of the opposition's rationale comes across as semantic, then my only interpretation of it is that "the site caters specifically to those who speak English natively, or that those speakers constitute the majority of the site's readerbase and userbase, so the template's name must be relative to that", which, ''nah''. [[:Category:User languages|There's plenty of ESL's using the site]], myself included, for whom certain subject names are not foreign, making the current title of the template subjective and inaccurate. On the other hand, "NIOL" is unequivocally objective. D) "NIOL" aligns with the "Names in other languages" heading this template is always preceded by. This is more of a bonus than a sound argument for the change, though. E) It is easier to type out than "Foreign names", which for a template that sees so much repeated use can be a boon.<br>A succinct and objective term, I struggle to see shortcomings of "NIOL" opposite of "foreign names". Indeed, don't fix what ain't broke, but in this case, this label is undeniably flawed and needs fixin'! | |||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
#{{User|Technetium}} It's foreign from the standpoint of the wiki, yes, given it's an English wiki. It doesn't have anything to do with the users themselves. Mostly, I just don't see the point of renaming a template so commonly used like this. It could mess up viewing older edits and people are already used to using the current name while editing. Now, the switch to JPN had these same issues, but given the original code was also a slur, it was worthwhile to do. This doesn't feel the same way to me. | #{{User|Technetium}} It's foreign from the standpoint of the wiki, yes, given it's an English wiki. It doesn't have anything to do with the users themselves. Mostly, I just don't see the point of renaming a template so commonly used like this. It could mess up viewing older edits and people are already used to using the current name while editing. Now, the switch to JPN had these same issues, but given the original code was also a slur, it was worthwhile to do. This change doesn't feel the same way to me. | ||
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Technetium. while i understand the phrasing concern, being a native Spanish speaker myself, the cost of implementation and change outweighs the benefits. | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The wiki is written in English, so there's nothing inaccurate or alienating about calling names in other languages foreign names. | |||
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|SGoW}} Per WT. Renaming a template used in thousands of pages on the wiki is a horrible idea. | |||
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Waluigi Time. Even though, yes, we ''can'' bulk rename templates on pages (see: PorpleBot), this feels a lot like a case of "change for change's sake". Maybe as time goes on and the concept of a "Foreign names" section fades away into obscurity in lieu of the newer "Naming" section, it would make sense? But at least for right now, though, the template's current name is clear enough. | |||
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all, especially TC and WT. | |||
#{{User|LadySophie17}} As someone whose first language isn't English. I don't mind this. It's inconvenient to change, doesnt affect the actual look of the pages for the average reader and would break more things than it would "fix". | |||
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all. | |||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
{{@|Technetium}} "Foreign names" can be a redirect. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 13:58, March 24, 2025 (EDT) | |||
:We want to avoid using redirects when possible. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 13:59, March 24, 2025 (EDT) | |||
something i forgot to add in my vote, but renaming a template makes it so older page versions using the previous template name don't function properly. that's also something to consider {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 17:36, March 24, 2025 (EDT) | |||
I will defer to users whose first language is not English, but I think the current name is fine. I would be interested to hear from those users though if find the use of the word "foreign" to be exclusionary to them. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:26, March 24, 2025 (EDT) | |||