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Club Nintendo Reference
I'm not sure if we should really put Mama Mario's appearance (or rather, reference) in the Club Nintendo comic "Super Mario in Die Nacht des Grauens" here. Peach's sentence Deine Mutter schrubbt Toiletten in der Hölle "Your mother is scrubbing toilets in hell" really makes no sense in this context. It seems to be more like a "your mother" joke (which is sometimes used in German, the language in which the comic was published, as well). So I don't think it refers to Mario's actual mother. I could be wrong though, it's debatable. Time Questions 14:02, 8 December 2008 (EST)
- Agree, it's just nonsense. If anything, it belongs to Trivia. --Grandy02 14:05, 8 December 2008 (EST)
- Well it is referring to Mario's actual mother, we just don't know if it is telling the truth about Mama Mario. It deserves to be somewhere. The question is where? -- Son of Suns (talk)
- Actually, I'm not sure if it is even referring to her. Among some people, it is just a common phrase they say in any imaginable situation. It's like the phrase "Oh my god" which you can say even if you're not religious. I agree with Grandy, the Trivia section seems to be a good place for this piece of information. Time Questions 14:22, 8 December 2008 (EST)
- What I mean is the insult refer's specifically to Mario's mother. Peach is trying to hurt Mario by insulting his family members, right? Even "your mom" jokes refer to the other person's mom even if you have no idea what their mom is like. Get what I'm saying? Of course this doesn't mean Mama Mario is literally scrubbing toilets in hell, but she is the subject of the insult. -- Son of Suns (talk)
- Well, that she is the subject of the insult is exactly the thing I'm doubting :) (It might be nit-picking, but either way this is a very minor issue, so I think it's okay to discuss it.) When you say "Oh my god", literally you talk about god. But you wouldn't say that you're referring to god. Or would you? It's a phrase that might have originated in an actual reference to god, but today it merely is an idiom, and when you say "Oh my god" you're not saying anything about god (or even, "your" god). But maybe I'm wrong when I'm putting the "Oh my god" phrase on a level with the "Your mother" phrase. Time Questions 14:44, 8 December 2008 (EST)
- I think the subject of "Oh my god" might depend on the person. I know when I say it, I am not referring to god, but potentially when others say it, they are referring to their god. I dunno. But "your mother" jokes, I think, are always in referrence to someone's specific mother - that is the whole point of the joke. A your mother joke not directed at anyone's mother is not really funny - I think it becomes like "Oh my god" as you are really not referring to anyone. If I just randomly say "Your momma is so fat, Obi-Wan Kenobi said that's no moon, that's your momma," people will wonder whose mother I am actually referring to. It loses its effect without a specific subject. However, it seems Peach is using it as a specific insult - insulting Mario's family and perhaps even his occupation. If there was not a concept of "Mario's mother" in the statement, then there would be no point in saying it. But Peach is trying to break Mario's spirit by recalling Mario's mother specifically. But this has nothing to do with where that info should be in the article haha. -- Son of Suns (talk)
- I think the fact that we managed to write the article without an unprofessional trivia section should be celebrated, not undone. Regardless of anyone's speculation on Abigor's intent while controlling Toadstool, it was a reference to Mario's mother, just like the one in "All Steamed Up." Mario doesn't say, "lol, and your mother's so non-existent she wasn't even mentioned in an instruction booklet," but takes the situation seriously and calls out to the real Toadstool. I seriously doubt we're supposed to look at the situation as if Abigor, a villain from hell, is joking with Mario. Now, if you wanted to divide the article into references and appearances, that would be one thing, but just moving a info blurb into a trivia section while leaving the other references untouched seems illogical. Stumpers! 16:26, 8 December 2008 (EST)
- While I don't think Trivia sections are unprofessional, I do think they are over-used (abused?) on this wiki. Splitting into actual appearances and references would be a good idea though, separating main information from more minor information. -- Son of Suns (talk)
- My only aversion to making that split would be that some references reveal the actions the character has taken (ie the reference in "Super Plant" which revealed Mama had left her plant in Mario and Luigi's care). On the topic of organization, though, I do need to put "Little Marios" before anything else in the Super Show section as it happened first chronologically. Stumpers! 17:05, 8 December 2008 (EST)
- Not to beat the bush (no pun intended), but is that plant story an important part of learning about Mama Mario? It seems we learn more about the plant from it, not Mama Mario. -- Son of Suns (talk) P.S. Is that even a saying at the beginning of my comment? I think I'm losing it...
- That would be, "beating about the bush." :P Stumpers! 19:00, 8 December 2008 (EST)
- Well, that she is the subject of the insult is exactly the thing I'm doubting :) (It might be nit-picking, but either way this is a very minor issue, so I think it's okay to discuss it.) When you say "Oh my god", literally you talk about god. But you wouldn't say that you're referring to god. Or would you? It's a phrase that might have originated in an actual reference to god, but today it merely is an idiom, and when you say "Oh my god" you're not saying anything about god (or even, "your" god). But maybe I'm wrong when I'm putting the "Oh my god" phrase on a level with the "Your mother" phrase. Time Questions 14:44, 8 December 2008 (EST)
- What I mean is the insult refer's specifically to Mario's mother. Peach is trying to hurt Mario by insulting his family members, right? Even "your mom" jokes refer to the other person's mom even if you have no idea what their mom is like. Get what I'm saying? Of course this doesn't mean Mama Mario is literally scrubbing toilets in hell, but she is the subject of the insult. -- Son of Suns (talk)
- I agree that's it's meant to sting a little more than "Yo Mama" jokes, seeing as she's "scrubbing toilets in Hell", which is demeaning her, as opposed to merely insulting. The context is also important: if Peach just said it off-the-wrist than it'd be more like a "Yo Mama" jibe; but she was actively trying to demoralize Mario when she said it, so it was a calculated part of her attack. Sorry if I'm just rehashing what other people have said, but I just wanted to get that out there. - Walkazo 20:25, 8 December 2008 (EST)
- Actually, I'm not sure if it is even referring to her. Among some people, it is just a common phrase they say in any imaginable situation. It's like the phrase "Oh my god" which you can say even if you're not religious. I agree with Grandy, the Trivia section seems to be a good place for this piece of information. Time Questions 14:22, 8 December 2008 (EST)
- Well it is referring to Mario's actual mother, we just don't know if it is telling the truth about Mama Mario. It deserves to be somewhere. The question is where? -- Son of Suns (talk)
Mama
I'm just wondering, Mama isn't her real name, right? That's how it sounds the way the article is written. 
CrystalYoshi 
09:43, 4 January 2009 (EST)
- It is the real name, from The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!. I believe we say in the article where the name is from. If not, I'll need to fix that. Stumpers! 22:20, 10 January 2009 (EST)
Another Reference?
In Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, Rawk Hawk says to Mario and his active partner, "You got some guts, calling my belt a fake, you shrimpy, no-belt-having wimps! Didn't your momma teach you any manners?!?" I'm not sure if that counts as a reference, though, because it's referring to a general idea of a mother, not a specific mom as in Double Dash!! Stumpers! 00:11, 20 January 2009 (EST)
- Yes. I severly doubt Rawk Hawk knows Mario's mother, so it is of dubious notability for this article. -- Son of Suns (talk)
- But at the same time, we don't know for sure if Peach knew Mario's mother when she told him she was "scrubbing toilets in Hell". Whatever we do with one of the quotes, we should do to the other; and now that there's two "Yo Mama"-type references (to borrow from the above section's discussion), I think making a seperate section for them would be the best course of action. They're not really part of Mama's history, but more like "Impersonal References" to Mama (whether or not that would work as a header, I have no idea). It was harder to place the Club Nintendo quote earlier because there was only one (single points look bad on their own), and the Hell part seemed sorta profound (though in retrospect, we Anglophones should've taken the German-speaking Users' words for it when they said it wasn't major - they know their culture better than we do). At least now, we don't need to resort to Trivia as the only alternative to the History section. Seeing as Mario is not rife with these sort of references, I think it's worth mentioning the few that are kicking around somewhere on the article, just to be thorough. - Walkazo 22:39, 20 January 2009 (EST)
- Sounds great to me! By the way, should it be "Mama Mario" or "Momma Mario"? The episode of the Super Show she was introduced in was called, "Mama Mia Mario" which is why we have the name we do. Stumpers! 23:41, 20 January 2009 (EST)
- But at the same time, we don't know for sure if Peach knew Mario's mother when she told him she was "scrubbing toilets in Hell". Whatever we do with one of the quotes, we should do to the other; and now that there's two "Yo Mama"-type references (to borrow from the above section's discussion), I think making a seperate section for them would be the best course of action. They're not really part of Mama's history, but more like "Impersonal References" to Mama (whether or not that would work as a header, I have no idea). It was harder to place the Club Nintendo quote earlier because there was only one (single points look bad on their own), and the Hell part seemed sorta profound (though in retrospect, we Anglophones should've taken the German-speaking Users' words for it when they said it wasn't major - they know their culture better than we do). At least now, we don't need to resort to Trivia as the only alternative to the History section. Seeing as Mario is not rife with these sort of references, I think it's worth mentioning the few that are kicking around somewhere on the article, just to be thorough. - Walkazo 22:39, 20 January 2009 (EST)
More References as "Mama Mia"
So Mama Mario is referenced many times throughout the Super Show as "Mama Mia." For example, in the episode Stars in Their Eyes, Luigi says "I hope these Quirk disguises work," to which Mario replies "Our own Mama Mia wouldn't recognize us." This indicates "Mama Mia" is a term of endearment used by the boys for their mother. So we should make a note of that in the intro, and will have to begin cataloguing these references. Furthermore, we have a section about a "Grandma Mia," which may in fact just be an affectionate name for Grandma Mario, just like Mama Mia is for Mama Mario. -- Son of Suns (talk)
- Well, most people only have one mother, so it's reasonable to assume "Mama Mia" is indeed a term of endearment for Mama Mario and we should make a note of that. However, the grandmothers should stay seperate, as it's just as (if not more) likely that the two names are for their two grandmas. - Walkazo 21:25, 13 February 2009 (EST)
- I don't know why it would be more likely that they are seperate characters ('cause by extension Mama Mia would be a seperate character). Perhaps we should merge the two but note that any reference to Grandma Mia or just Grandma in general could be a reference to Grandma Mario or a different Grandma. Basically, it's kinda redundant to have a lot of the same information in two different spots. Anyways, I am getting closer to the episode where Grandma Mia is mentioned, so we'll see what it is specifically says in the episode. -- Son of Suns (talk)
- It'd be more likely because most people call their two grandmothers by different names to differentiate between them (whether they're using "Grandma (First/Last Name)" for each, or using totally different titles, like "Grandma" vs. "Bubby"). Even if one grandmother is dead, most people don't talk about their other one enough to bother coming up with creative alternative terms ("Mama Mia" sounds sorta tongue-in-cheek to me, as if
LuigiMario wanted to change things up from using plain "Mama" all the time). As for the repetition, if the stuff's written differently it's not so bad, and the Grandma Mia list entry is better than some veritably cut-and-pasted articles I've come across. - Walkazo 21:54, 13 February 2009 (EST)
- It'd be more likely because most people call their two grandmothers by different names to differentiate between them (whether they're using "Grandma (First/Last Name)" for each, or using totally different titles, like "Grandma" vs. "Bubby"). Even if one grandmother is dead, most people don't talk about their other one enough to bother coming up with creative alternative terms ("Mama Mia" sounds sorta tongue-in-cheek to me, as if
- I don't know why it would be more likely that they are seperate characters ('cause by extension Mama Mia would be a seperate character). Perhaps we should merge the two but note that any reference to Grandma Mia or just Grandma in general could be a reference to Grandma Mario or a different Grandma. Basically, it's kinda redundant to have a lot of the same information in two different spots. Anyways, I am getting closer to the episode where Grandma Mia is mentioned, so we'll see what it is specifically says in the episode. -- Son of Suns (talk)
I just don't know why Luigi would refer to his mother by her first name. -- Booster (talk)
- Do we know it's a first name? Perhaps the capitalization is misleading - mama mia or mamma mia might be a better way to write it. Mia is not a first name, but from the Italian for "my" or "mine" (i.e. affectionately "my mother," and by extension, "my grandmother"). -- Son of Suns (talk) P.S. Mario says it...
- "Mia" is a first name (see). I didn't really interpret "Mia" as a name in this scenerio (though I do think it's the grandmother's name), but more like an expression, such as "Mother Dearest", only with a Mario spin to it. And even if he did mean "mia" as in "my", he also said "our own Mama", so the second possessive would be a bit redundant (i.e. "my mother of mine" sounds bad, does it not?). - Walkazo 22:48, 13 February 2009 (EST)
- Of course Mia is a first name. I was just asking if we know if it's a first name in the case of Mama Mia. Yeah, I definitely see it as an expression with a Mario spin, as well as Gramma Mia, as an extended pun on the use of Mama Mia. -- Son of Suns (talk) P.S. And hey, it's the Super Show. Mario says a lot of things that don't make sense. =P
- Well, if the name "Mama Mario" comes from the episode title "Mama Mia Mario", then "Mia" could very well be her first name as well as a continuation of the phrase "mamma mia". It is strange that they'd be calling her by her first name in that case (as Booster pointed out), but as you said, sensibility and the Super Show aren't exactly bosom brothers... - Walkazo 23:18, 13 February 2009 (EST)
- Of course Mia is a first name. I was just asking if we know if it's a first name in the case of Mama Mia. Yeah, I definitely see it as an expression with a Mario spin, as well as Gramma Mia, as an extended pun on the use of Mama Mia. -- Son of Suns (talk) P.S. And hey, it's the Super Show. Mario says a lot of things that don't make sense. =P
- Oh my gosh. I was just about to write that! =) Maybe Mama Mia Mario is her full name. -- Son of Suns (talk) P.S. Isn't it as equally strange that the boys call her by her last name as well?
God, this is getting confusing... -- Booster (talk)
- Mama mia! Actually, I'm trying to remember if the brothers ever did call her Mama Mario... I do believe she is only called that by other, unrelated characters. We should consider making a list of all the sources in which Mario used the term "mama mia" though, because that's a sort of reference in itself. Yeesh... I've never had such an Easter egg hunt with a character's appearances before. Stumpers! 01:04, 14 February 2009 (EST)
- I believe Mario calls her "Mama Mia" in "Will the Real Elvis Please Shut Up!" Before his pseudo-performance at the beginning of the episode, he dedicates the song to his "Mama Mia." -- Son of Suns (talk) P.S. Pretty sure about this, I'll have to watch the episode again...
Just wondering, what are we gonna do about the article's title? Are we gonna leave it as "Mama Mario", or should we change it to "Mama Mia Mario (character)" and turn the episode into "Mama Mia Mario (TSMBSS episode)" with plain "Mama Mia Mario" as a disambiguation page? I don't recommend we use "Mia Mario", but perhaps "Mama Mia" would work, seeing as that's what she seems to be called the most (not including plain "Mama"). That's why Princess Peach is so-named: she's called that more than plain "Peach" (unlike Bowser vs. "King Bowser") or "Peach Toadstool" (which was phased-out, though seeing as our only solid source of info pertaining to Mario's mother name is a single TV series, the passage of time isn't so much of an issue here). I still like "Mama Mario" the best, but I figured I should voice all the other options, just in case. - Walkazo 00:10, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- Remember, we use the common name of the character (Bowser rather than King Bowser, Princess Peach rather than Princess Peach Toadstool), so we'd still be using Mama Mario as the article's title because that's what she is referred to most consistently. And, might I add, that is the name used by other people to discuss her. This "mia Mario" stuff has only been Mario and Luigi (which makes me think that the "mia" would be "my" rather than a name in this case). Just to throw this out here, we can't speculate on whether the "mia" is referring to a name or "my," as you all know - just like we can't speculate that Mario's father's name is "Papa Mario" even though Mama Mario has a maiden name. Stumpers! 09:17, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- But isn't even Mama Mario is somewhat speculative, correct? For all we know, it could be "mama Mario." What I am getting at is that we should try to provide the best name with all possible evidence. Seeing that we have an episode named Mama Mia Mario (just like other episodes named after characters, such as Robo Koopa), there is evidence to suggest that Mama Mia Mario is her full name. Mama Mario could still be the title, but perhaps the name stated at the beginning should be Mama Mia Mario, just like Princess Peach Toadstool is used in the beginning of the Princess Peach article, even though I don't think she has ever been explicitly referred to as "Princess Peach Toadstool." It's her full name, but a name based on many different sources, just like Mama Mia Mario would be. Basically, there is a different between 'inference and speculation. -- Son of Suns (talk)
- Whoa, hold up. Trying to define what is speculation and inference is going to be a slippery slope, and when you come down to it it's going to make a lot of nice arguments. How about this for an inference: the Super Mario Bros. film isn't part of the main continuity. Even if I agree with you, I just can't support logic that a little speculation is fine if you dress it up as an inference. Let's review the facts: (1) The name Mama Mario is not at all speculative. It's her public title as used by both members of her family and those outside of her family. So, really the only issue we can take with it is the capitalization. Yet, last I checked, when used as a name, all variations of "mother" are to be capitalized (ie "Hey, Mom!" versus "She's my mom"). Nintendo of America's translators decided to capitalize "Mama Peach" per that rule in Super Mario Sunshine. Here's what I think we should do with the intro: "Mama Mario (referred to as Mama and Mama Mia by her children)" or something to that extent. Still, though, this only applies depending on how "mia" was used: can you clarify exactly how we know that the word "mia" was used as a name rather than as a name? Did Mario say, exactly, "my Mama m/Mia?" Stumpers! 21:19, 16 February 2009 (EST)
- But isn't even Mama Mario is somewhat speculative, correct? For all we know, it could be "mama Mario." What I am getting at is that we should try to provide the best name with all possible evidence. Seeing that we have an episode named Mama Mia Mario (just like other episodes named after characters, such as Robo Koopa), there is evidence to suggest that Mama Mia Mario is her full name. Mama Mario could still be the title, but perhaps the name stated at the beginning should be Mama Mia Mario, just like Princess Peach Toadstool is used in the beginning of the Princess Peach article, even though I don't think she has ever been explicitly referred to as "Princess Peach Toadstool." It's her full name, but a name based on many different sources, just like Mama Mia Mario would be. Basically, there is a different between 'inference and speculation. -- Son of Suns (talk)
- See...there's inference at work. Since Nintendo has capitalized "Mama" in the past, therefore "Mama Mario" should be capitalized. That's an inference, not an established "fact." But I am simply trying to make a point. What is a "fact," an "inference," or "speculation" will always be slippery.
- As far as Mama Mia goes. I know of at least two quotes regarding the use of Mama Mia, although there may be more. The first is above: In the episode Stars in Their Eyes, Luigi says "I hope these Quirk disguises work," to which Mario replies "Our own Mama Mia wouldn't recognize us." The second occurs in the episode Will the Real Elvis Please Shut Up!, during Mario's beginning performance. He says "I'd like to dedicate and sing this next song to my lovely Mama Mia." What do you make of that? -- Son of Suns (talk)
- Very indicative... but one last thing before we say case closed: didn't you just get the DVD? Could you turn on captions to "English for the hearing impaired" and check out the capitalization? That's how I figured out "Mama Peach" was capitalized. And yes, I see what you were saying about inferences. As long as we're militant about judging inferences we should be fine. Stumpers! 00:17, 17 February 2009 (EST)
- As far as Mama Mia goes. I know of at least two quotes regarding the use of Mama Mia, although there may be more. The first is above: In the episode Stars in Their Eyes, Luigi says "I hope these Quirk disguises work," to which Mario replies "Our own Mama Mia wouldn't recognize us." The second occurs in the episode Will the Real Elvis Please Shut Up!, during Mario's beginning performance. He says "I'd like to dedicate and sing this next song to my lovely Mama Mia." What do you make of that? -- Son of Suns (talk)