Editing Category talk:Objects

==Mutually exclude items and objects==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|8-0|define items and objects as separate entities}}
Items go into your inventory. Objects are a part of the environment. Items can be freely and conveniently moved around. Objects, if they can be moved at all, most commonly remain in their local area or must be awkwardly pushed around by the player. Objects also encompasses traps and obstacles, and something is very off if [[Grinder]]s, [[Burner]]s, and [[Lava]] are all being classified as items. There's a contradiction if [[MarioWiki:Categories#Placement_on_articles|MarioWiki:Categories]] considers both [[:Category:Items]] and [[:Category:Objects]] to be "main" categories even though the objects exist as a subcategory of items, and we should really clear this up. Items and objects are completely separate, and there's no reason for us to categorize them like they're connected subjects. If this proposal passes, Category:Items will be removed from the objects category and the terms will likewise be removed from each other's pages (objects will no longer be defined as items).

(I'm aware that other wikis shouldn't affect our wiki, but it's worth mentioning that the [[zeldawiki:Category:Objects|Zelda Wiki]] and the [[wikirby:Category:Objects|Kirby Wiki]] already consider items and objects to be separate)

'''Proposer''': {{User|Time Turner}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 21, 2017, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Time Turner}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Niiue}} This has always bugged me. Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I'd say a better definition is that items are collectibles and powerups while objects are gimmicks, as many relevant games here lack an inventory system.
#{{user|Mario jc}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per all.
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Per proposal.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Plus, we '''''<ins>ALREADY</ins>''''' have notable precedents: [[Bumper]] and [[Tire]].

===Oppose===
<s>#{{User|Mario Kart DS Fan}} they are objects. they are power-ups. ithink they are the same thing.</s>
===Comments===
@Mario Kart DS Fan: How are, say, [[Rotating Panel]]s power-ups? [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 09:56, 7 October 2017 (EDT)

I think it's worth noting that ''technically'', all items are objects, but not all objects are items. Since an object is literally "a thing." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:30, 7 October 2017 (EDT)
:That's technically true but completely useless for categorization purposes. ''Every'' subject could be classified as an object under that definition. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 18:36, 7 October 2017 (EDT)

== Directory for objects, items, and obstacles in the Super Mario Encyclopedia ==

I have created a Google Spreadsheet of all the items, objects, and obstacles explicitly listed in the 2015 Japanese release of the ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]''. It can be viewed and commented on [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IZ9s4hYn96F1XBLhCrR_J9A-rgG-WhZsxAb9-ZVL2e0/edit?usp=sharing here]. You should be able to view columns in whatever way you want, not just the default listing "by game", but please let me know if it's not working. The spreadsheet does not include titles released after ''[[Super Mario 3D World]]'', as they are not in the book.

This spreadsheet includes localized and published English names for all objects. Objects understood to be the same thing across games share the same English name, even if they were localized under different names at the time of their respective games' releases, but I have provided columns for game-specific English names where it was needed. I did this to clarify what objects (I think) are intended to be the same thing between games. For objects that do not have a proper name (largely objects from ''[[New Super Mario Bros.]]'' and ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'', I left them blank but provided a brief description. Please let me know if there are any issues, or if I misinterpreted something. I did the best I could.

I thought something like this could be handy after Shadow2 made [[Talk:Super Mario Sunshine#A bit much??|this post]] on the ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]'' page, and I think what they brought up are valid issues. What is an object vs. a general part of the terrain? Does simply moving or being interactable count? Because that is something we cannot distinguish, than articles can truly become endless. I think the Shogakukan Guide, provides some of the best categorical insight into what objects are, even if imperfect. I also personally feel it would helpful to have something like this to help steer dedicated articles for objects, as they are not generally as well cataloged as enemies or characters. It is not always clear if objects are meant to be the same thing if they share the same name but have different functions, and vice versa. (I also thought it would be nice for folks to have an independent English reference for the topics in the encyclopedia, since the official localization of the book was not properly translated.) Here are some observations I made while working on this:

#'''The object sections for games are intentionally incomplete in the book.''' There are objects listed for one game that do not appear listed in another despite it definitely being in both, or only have one of a set of objects displayed. For example, only the [[Screwtop|blue screw]] is listed in the ''[[Super Mario Galaxy]]'' section, and only the [[Glowing Baby Yoshi]]'s [[Egg]] is listed in the ''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]'' one despite all three Baby Yoshis having eggs in the game.
#'''Some objects can be contextually {{wp|Lumpers and splitters|broad in one game, and narrowed in the next}}.''' For example, [[Fireball (obstacle)|fireballs]] and [[Lava Geyser]]s are not individually listed together in the ''SMG'' section, instead collectively grouped as マグマ (Maguma, "magma"). In ''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]'', the Lava Geyser is listed individually as 火柱 (Hibashira, "pillar of fire"), before again being lumped with fireballs in the ''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]'' section under "magma". Similarly, the climbable rock walls and cliffsides are treated as separate objects in ''NSMBW'', but are lumped together in the ''NSMBU'' section despite retaining their functions from the previous game. This classification scheme is fluid.
#'''There are objects that are clearly suppose to be the same thing but have different names across games.''' A good example is the Donut Block. There are some enemies like this in the book too.
#'''There are objects that share a Japanese name but are clearly not suppose to be the same thing''', such as the ones called 回転ブロック (Kaiten Burokku, or "rotating block"). The object by that name in ''NSMB'' seems to be the same as the flipping block platforms in SM64's Tick Tock Clock (or at least function comparably), whereas the "rotating block" in ''NSMB2'' is a row of Brick Blocks that twirl around a pivot point. Clearly not the same in function or design.
#'''There are objects that have been in the games for decades and have proper English localizations, but do not have proper articles yet''', such as Jet Pipes or Bowser's Flames (which should encompass [[Fire Breath]], I think).
#'''There are subjects we treat as discrete objects here on the wiki, but are not understood to be so in-text.''' For example, despite having a presence across multiple games, there are no listings of [[lava tide]]s, [[sand tide]]s, or [[water tide]]s for any of them, and the descriptions for [[Lava]] and [[Quicksand]] often explicitly include "rising" as an occasional attribute of the object, so I am inclined to think they are not true distinct objects and should be merged with their respective parents.

Hopefully this is a helpful reference, or at least relevant for a wider discussion on where we should ultimately draw the line between a true object and terrain. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:22, February 16, 2024 (EST)