Editing Talk:Bull's-Eye Bill

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==Super Mario Sunshine==
So Super Mario Sunshine's are Missile Bills? Then why are they also found in the Bullet Bill article? {{User:Supermariofan14/sig}}
So Super Mario Sunshine's are Missile Bills? Then why are they also found in the Bullet Bill article? {{User:Supermariofan14/sig}}


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== Rename to Bull's-Eye Bill ==
== Rename to Bull's-Eye Bill ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{SettledTPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|gray|deleted by proposer}}
{{ProposalOutcome|gray|deleted by proposer}}
As stated in the article, a Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Qjqt2K_MM&t=1m30s trailer] by Nintendo calls them "Bull's-Eye Bills". We also recently had a member of the Nintendo Treehouse (the ones in charge of localization) confirm it as the official name during the World Championships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88eKjjQbeg&t=17m45s
As stated in the article, a Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Qjqt2K_MM&t=1m30s trailer] by Nintendo calls them "Bull's-Eye Bills". We also recently had a member of the Nintendo Treehouse (the ones in charge of localization) confirm it as the official name during the World Championships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88eKjjQbeg&t=17m45s


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== Should we base ourselves on the actual Bull's Eye Bills introduced in ''New super Mario Bros. Wii'' for this page? ==
== Should we base ourselves on the actual Bull's Eye Bills introduced in ''New super Mario Bros. Wii'' for this page? ==
{{talk}}
Right now, we are grouping together either enemies that are just red Bullet Bills (''Mario Party 8'') or that are stated to be Bullet Bills, but behave like Bull's Eye Bills (''Super Mario Bros. 3'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', ''Super Mario Advance 3''). As far as the latter cases are concerned, both the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' (on page 99), the Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario Sunshine''<ref>Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario Sunshine'', page 18:<br>キラー<br>出現ステージ ピンナパーク/コロナマウンテン最上部<br>出現コイン 2〜8<br>砲台からマリオに向かって発射され、ふれるとダメージを3受けてしまう。黒いキラーは水をかけるとコインを2枚出して爆発するが、そのほかにも追尾型の紫、コインを8枚出す金色、1UPキノコを出す水色のキラーがいる。</ref> and even internal data confirm that those of ''Super Mario Sunshine'' are just ''Killers'' (as far as internal data is concerned, those used in ''pinnaBeach1'' are called ''killer'', those used in ''coronaBoss'' are grouped under ''bathtubkiller''). Same for those of ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', with both the Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario advance 4''<ref>Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario Advance 4'', page 17:<br>キラー<br>マリオ<span class=explain title="め">目</span>がけて<span class=explain title="はっしゃ">発射</span>される<span class=explain title="ほうだん">砲弾</span>。<span class=explain title="とちゅう">途中</span>でUターンして<span class=explain title="もど">戻</span>ってくるものもある。</ref> as well as the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.''<ref>''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', page 36:<br>キラー<br>キラー砲台から発射され、まっすぐに飛んでくる。Uターンするタイプもいる。</ref> explicitly mentioning the U turn abilities of some Killers in the descriptions. The same case is seen in ''Super Mario Advance 3'', where the [[Bull's-Eye Bill#cite_ref-6|Nintendo Official Guidebook again groups them under ''Killers'' using the name ''Red Killers'' for the ones capable of following Yoshi]]. While it's highly likely that the ''Search Killers'' were based on those red Killers able to follow the player, I wonder if we should be more strict and just leave a mention of their predecessors in the introduction, considering how the properly distinguished Search Killers appeared in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:15, 6 March 2019 (EST)
Right now, we are grouping together either enemies that are just red Bullet Bills (''Mario Party 8'') or that are stated to be Bullet Bills, but behave like Bull's Eye Bills (''Super Mario Bros. 3'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', ''Super Mario Advance 3''). As far as the latter cases are concerned, both the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' (on page 99), the Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario Sunshine''<ref>Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario Sunshine'', page 18:<br>キラー<br>出現ステージ ピンナパーク/コロナマウンテン最上部<br>出現コイン 2〜8<br>砲台からマリオに向かって発射され、ふれるとダメージを3受けてしまう。黒いキラーは水をかけるとコインを2枚出して爆発するが、そのほかにも追尾型の紫、コインを8枚出す金色、1UPキノコを出す水色のキラーがいる。</ref> and even internal data confirm that those of ''Super Mario Sunshine'' are just ''Killers'' (as far as internal data is concerned, those used in ''pinnaBeach1'' are called ''killer'', those used in ''coronaBoss'' are grouped under ''bathtubkiller''). Same for those of ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', with both the Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario advance 4''<ref>Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario Advance 4'', page 17:<br>キラー<br>マリオ<span class=explain title="め">目</span>がけて<span class=explain title="はっしゃ">発射</span>される<span class=explain title="ほうだん">砲弾</span>。<span class=explain title="とちゅう">途中</span>でUターンして<span class=explain title="もど">戻</span>ってくるものもある。</ref> as well as the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.''<ref>''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', page 36:<br>キラー<br>キラー砲台から発射され、まっすぐに飛んでくる。Uターンするタイプもいる。</ref> explicitly mentioning the U turn abilities of some Killers in the descriptions. The same case is seen in ''Super Mario Advance 3'', where the [[Bull's-Eye Bill#cite_ref-6|Nintendo Official Guidebook again groups them under ''Killers'' using the name ''Red Killers'' for the ones capable of following Yoshi]]. While it's highly likely that the ''Search Killers'' were based on those red Killers able to follow the player, I wonder if we should be more strict and just leave a mention of their predecessors in the introduction, considering how the properly distinguished Search Killers appeared in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:15, 6 March 2019 (EST)
:Then what should we do about Missile Bill (which technically wasn't necessarily "red" in its original appearance, just flashed to the player's palette, which in most cases would make it red)? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:09, 6 March 2019 (EST)
:Then what should we do about Missile Bill (which technically wasn't necessarily "red" in its original appearance, just flashed to the player's palette, which in most cases would make it red)? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:09, 6 March 2019 (EST)
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A precisation: the ''Missile Bill'' name is a North American thing, in the Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario Advance 4'' (the first Nintendo Official Guidebook covering them) they are not split from the Bullet Bills and they are stated to be able to make U-turns, both these aspects are retained in the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.''(with this name I mean the Japanese one, not its translation). Earlier official Japanese sources talked about the roundtrip capabilities of them and again kept them with Bullet Bills, but U-turn was the term that subseded roundtrip in the official guides. The ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' Bull's Eye Bill is a separate enemy known as ''Search Killer''. This is the first time said term is used, and this enemy is indeed the first case of the Bull's Eye Bill we currently know. The original Missile Bills were a split that has never been officially acknowledged in Japan and the explicit connection through name sharing between said Missile Bills and the Bull's Eye Bills was not made by the developers, but rather by Prima Games.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:07, July 15, 2019 (EDT)
A precisation: the ''Missile Bill'' name is a North American thing, in the Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario Advance 4'' (the first Nintendo Official Guidebook covering them) they are not split from the Bullet Bills and they are stated to be able to make U-turns, both these aspects are retained in the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.''(with this name I mean the Japanese one, not its translation). Earlier official Japanese sources talked about the roundtrip capabilities of them and again kept them with Bullet Bills, but U-turn was the term that subseded roundtrip in the official guides. The ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' Bull's Eye Bill is a separate enemy known as ''Search Killer''. This is the first time said term is used, and this enemy is indeed the first case of the Bull's Eye Bill we currently know. The original Missile Bills were a split that has never been officially acknowledged in Japan and the explicit connection through name sharing between said Missile Bills and the Bull's Eye Bills was not made by the developers, but rather by Prima Games.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:07, July 15, 2019 (EDT)
:At the time. That does not mean they ''can't'' be the same thing from before, it's just divergent evolution of concepts, in a similar vein to how [[Beanerang Bro]] was originally an odd Boomerang Bro that this wiki split rather prematurely. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:18, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
::Do we really need to consider the Japanese names here? I mean, they should definitely be noted, but this is an English wiki. Grouping the enemies based on their Japanese names would just cause more of a headache. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 00:23, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::@Doc von Schmeltwick, @TheDarkStar, and @Waluigi Time, then what do you think about the Mario Party ones? I think we should merge these before making another proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 00:48, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::Merge the Mario Party ones with Bullet Bill. They don't home in. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 00:49, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::::But, should that be done prior to a proposal? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 01:05, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::::I don't see why a proposal would be necessary to split an enemy that doesn't even act like a Missile Bill. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 01:07, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::You misunderstand. I said if it should be merged prior to a proposal for everything else, or should be merged along with the proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 01:11, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::As Alex95 said above, it would be near-impossible to make a proposal here that isn't ridiculously overwhelming when it comes to options. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 01:14, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::Hmmm... You're right! It should be cut to less options.  --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 01:19, July 16, 2019 (EDT)


::Not just at the time, the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' clearly show that their position on the ''Super Mario Bros. 3 Missile Bills'' hasn't changed, with them again not giving them a dedicated box and stressing how they are Bullet Bills, just with the capability of making U turns. Conversely, the Bull's Eye Bills have their own box in the pages dedicated to ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''. Ultimately, if we keep the previous Bullet Bills capable of changing direction in reaction to the player here, it's just for convenience, since the first mainly red Bullet Bills that reacted to Mario were introduced in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' and we want to show how the Bull's Eye Bills came as an evolution of preexisitng concepts. If the ''Super Mario Pia'' might still be considered a case of following the names strictly, after the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' it's clear that Nintendo in Japan doesn't absolutely consider the Bull's Eye Bills the same as the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' Bullet Bills.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 09:05, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
::Agreed. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:32, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::Also, see Kuromame, which do not keep their name in there, and have a new one, based on its appearance and behavior. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:33, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::Aside from Kuromame though, most everything in that kept their names and classifications they had ''at the time'', hence the Kyodai/Biggu/Dai/Deka thing when in all but the Cheep Cheeps' case, they're pretty clearly the same thing, or at least the same ''concept''. And ''these'', aside from the MP ones, are ''definitely'' all the same concept. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:31, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::::So you mean that you support merging the Mario Party ones? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:33, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::::As has been said, that doesn't need a proposal as it is obviously a different thing, honestly more comparable to [[Mad Bullet Bill]]. I've seen gameplay, and Bowser shoots them towards the player, which may have been initially misconstrued by someone as them homing in. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:35, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::::No, SMB3 Missile Bills' turn-around gimmick isn't the same concept as Bullet and Bulls-Eye Bills' constant chasing. If they had some vertical position alignment in relation to Mario's position, '''then''' I'd be convinced they're homing, but they're not. They just switch directions when they pass Mario, and only once. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 14:22, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::::Sunshine ones act like the SMB3 ones, except they don't give up. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:13, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::You keep saying that, but it ignores the fact that by that logic any homing Bullet Bill in 3D Mario games (horizontally at least) would also act like SMB3 M. Bills, which I said are debatably separate from B. Bills - at best, to add. But it's not just U-turns, you could also get creative and try to make them go in circles and even figure 8s, but that's more of a testament to their tracking abilities. They're actually closer to SM64 B. Bills, where the tracking traits really originate from. Mario acting as a trigger to turn around is nowhere close to chasing down Mario at sight. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 16:22, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::Because ''at the time'', in JP, they weren't separate, but they are ''now''. Not being separate ''before'' does not ''bar'' them from being separate later, as shown by Bouncing Bullet Bill. The vanishing act in SMA3 is also really not relevant, because loads of SMW2 enemies had new behaviors, like Piranha Plant actually eating the player character and whatever was going on with the Pokey situation between [[Spiked Fun Guy]] and [[Needlenose]]. It's actually quite possible that them being separated in JP later was inspired by them being separate in Western depictions earlier. And obviously, it would be ''impossible'' to have them "home in" in SMB3 believably like they do in the later games, as sprite rotation on the NES is utterly impossible. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:12, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::Don't forget what I wrote: the U-turning Bullet Bills of ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' still aren't separate from the Bullet Bills according to the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', the first Bullet Bills that change direction in reaction to Mario and are acknowledged to be a separate enemy in that book are the Purple Bullet Bills from ''Super Mario Sunshine''. This is interesting, as the Nintendo Official Guidebook of ''Super Mario Sunshine'' didn't list the various Bullet Bills but rather had them grouped in the same box, showing again that the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' didn't just copy-paste what was said in the Nintendo Official Guidebooks of the time, reinforcing the lack of distinction seen in the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' case.
:::::::::Just to clarify a further point: I'm not necessarily against keeping the previous enemies in this page to show how the Bull's Eye Bills came from preexisting concepts, I just want to avoid passing them as the same entity while, even according to more recent sources, the process that brought to the current Bull's Eye Bills was a gradual one, with the previous entities not necessarily being already Bull's Eye Bills.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:28, July 17, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::Hmmm... If another proposal is made, it should be cut off to these options:
*Merge Missile Bill and Yoshi's Island iteration into Bullet Bill
*Split Purple Bullet Bill while merging the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration and the Yoshi's Island iteration to Bullet Bill
*Just merge Missile Bill into Bullet Bill
*Just merge the Yoshi's Island iteration into Bullet Bill
*Split Purple Bullet Bill while merging the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration into Bullet Bill
*Just Split Purple Bullet Bill
*Split Purple Bullet Bill while merging the Yoshi's Island iteration to Bullet Bill
*Don't do anything
The Mario Party ones would be a standalone, since they need to be merged before another proposal, as it would be against the previous proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:23, July 17, 2019 (EDT)
:That's still too many. Really, any proposal about this subject would have far too many options and overwhelm everyone who wants to cut up this page. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 11:28, July 17, 2019 (EDT)
::Also, Missile Bills may not be different from Bull's-Eye Bills in Japan, but this is an English wiki. It's all nice and okay to acknowledge the SMB3 Missile Bills not being different from Bullet Bills in Japan, but organizing a page based on the Japanese names when they're separate in America, even being named Missile Bills in the SMA3 guide, is, frankly, ridiculous. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 11:34, July 17, 2019 (EDT)
:::It's subjective about wether it's ridiculous or not. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:36, July 17, 2019 (EDT)
:::Nintendo is a Japanese company, so Japanese material takes precedence over English one when there are contradictions like in this case, especially because ''Missile Bills'' comes from the Prima guide, from the material we have Nintendo of America exclusively used ''Bull's Eye Bills'' to refer to the current Bull's Eye Bills.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:41, July 17, 2019 (EDT)
::::Yes, some of those can be further nixed (for example, I think it's safe to assume the "split Purple Bullet Bill" options would be unpopular and if anything could merge with the Bullet Bill article - if any of them should be split in their own article, it's the original Missile Bill, and even that is admittedly tenuous and would cause confusion), and to be clear, you mean Missile Bill and the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' iteration to be the same thing? Also, to answer Alex95's question: it kind of goes both ways since going with localizations all the time can still be needlessly convoluted (for example, Sky Troopa when it's clearly a Koopa Paratroopa, Flospy Fish when ''Super Princess Peach'' calls it a Cheep Cheep, etc.). We're not factoring the Japanese names just because they're Japanese, but because it happens to be the language of origin the majority of the time, which is the case for Bull's-Eye Bill. The same treatment should be expected for Western developers. That said, name changes can still happen over time, but at least it's not due to translation differences, which is the most common reason. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:01, July 17, 2019 (EDT)
:::::@LinkTheLefty, "I think it's safe to assume the "split Purple Bullet Bill" options would be unpopular and if anything could merge with the Bullet Bill article", what about [[Guided Bullet Bill]]? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:25, July 17, 2019 (EDT)
::::::I honestly think that should be a separate issue since we already have enough "proto-Bull's-Eye Bills", though I'd say that if Purple Bullet Bill merges with Bullet Bill then it makes sense to do the same to Guided Bullet Bill. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:29, July 17, 2019 (EDT)
Since that was being asked elsewhere, if a proposal were to be made, I don't think it makes sense to go into combinatorics, it would be just ''Split the predecessors'' and ''Do nothing''. We either want this page to deal exclusively with the Bull's Eye Bills that were introduced with ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' or we want to cover their predecessors as well, at which point it makes little sense to include some but not others (the ''Mario Party 8'' red Bullet Bills don't need the proposal, someone with knowledge of the game can just merge them already in the appropriate page).<br>
In any case, unless someone else comes up supporting the idea to be stricter in the coverage of this page, I think the proposal would be overkill, at best I can just group the enemies that came before in the ''Predecessors'' section and that's it.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 09:38, July 18, 2019 (EDT)
:I believe we might be able to reach a middle ground between moving all and moving none (again, I feel that about-facing is somewhat unique behavior that can potentially return as its own Bullet Bill variant separate from modern homing ones), but if the specifics on that are going nowhere then maybe an "all or nothing" situation is needed in order to proceed. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:07, July 18, 2019 (EDT)
::I think having a "predecessors" section would be overkill, I think we can just say "''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' introduced the modern Bull's-Eye Bill." Also worth noting is the situation it appeared at in NSMBW, being unique to a bonus level lacking the "normal" Bullet Bills, and unlike SMA3, being the main feature of said level. In SMB3 and SMS, they appeared alongside normal Bullet Bills, so treating them as a simple color variation was additionally more convenient at the time. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:52, July 18, 2019 (EDT)
:::How would it be overkill? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 18:36, July 24, 2019 (EDT)
===References===
===References===
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<references/>


== Determine how to reorganize this page ==
== Determine how to reorganize this page ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{SettledTPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|cancelled}}
{{ProposalOutcome|cancelled}}
So, given the above discussion, i'd like to open this proposal. This will determine how to reorganize this page.  While most sources consider Missile Bill being the same as Bullet Bill, just with a different behavior (A Big Bertha/Boss Bass situation obviously), the Zen Hyakka treats them as a separate entity. <span class=explain title="おうふく">往復</span>キラー "Oufuku Killer", which, for future references, does the same with [[Porcupuffer]], which explicitly states that [[User talk:Mister Wu/30th Anniversary Books Related Questions#More encyclopedia names|it]] [[:File:SMW Zen Hyakka Porcupuffer.jpg|is]] a [[Cheep Cheep]], which no guide has done before, besides the Daizukan. The Purple Bullet Bill is キラー(紫) "Killer (murasaki)", which confirms them to be a separate entity. We have [[Guided Bullet Bill]] split, so why not this one? The Yoshi's Island homing ones that disappear after a couple of second are considered as a color variant, which while it did the same for the [[Bouncing Bullet Bill]] and [[Relay Heihō]], the latter two were more obvious to be definitely based off of each other.
So, given the above discussion, i'd like to open this proposal. This will determine how to reorganize this page.  While most sources consider Missile Bill being the same as Bullet Bill, just with a different behavior (A Big Bertha/Boss Bass situation obviously), the Zen Hyakka treats them as a separate entity. <span class=explain title="おうふく">往復</span>キラー "Oufuku Killer", which, for future references, does the same with [[Porcupuffer]], which explicitly states that [[User talk:Mister Wu/30th Anniversary Books Related Questions#More encyclopedia names|it]] [[:File:SMW Zen Hyakka Porcupuffer.jpg|is]] a [[Cheep Cheep]], which no guide has done before, besides the Daizukan. The Purple Bullet Bill is キラー(紫) "Killer (murasaki)", which confirms them to be a separate entity. We have [[Guided Bullet Bill]] split, so why not this one? The Yoshi's Island homing ones that disappear after a couple of second are considered as a color variant, which while it did the same for the [[Bouncing Bullet Bill]] and [[Relay Heihō]], the latter two were more obvious to be definitely based off of each other.


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::::::::That's an if statement. I'd prefer it not be split at all, hence where I'm voting at this juncture. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:18, May 24, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::That's an if statement. I'd prefer it not be split at all, hence where I'm voting at this juncture. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:18, May 24, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::Then, should i cancel the proposal to let out the above discussion play first, rather than rushing a proposal? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 15:19, May 24, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::Then, should i cancel the proposal to let out the above discussion play first, rather than rushing a proposal? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 15:19, May 24, 2019 (EDT)
== Determine how to reorganize this page, take 2 ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|2-2-3-9|do nothing}}
The discussion above has been going on for a ridiculous amount of time, and no consensus has been reached. In Japanese sources, the NSMBW Missile Bills are the first appearance of Missile Bills, while the ones from SMB3 and SMS are simple color variants there. However, in English sources, they're separate entities.
'''Proposer''': {{User|TheDarkStar}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 7, 2019, 23:59 GMT
===Split all===
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} <s>Second option,</s> <s>p</s>Per my thoughts above. Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heyho aren't a comparable situation, as they are from a Yoshi game, which reused many mechanics from the first game. And it was ''obvious  enough'' that they were the same enemy I.E. a callback and not a coincidence, unlike Bull's-Eye Bill, which has an overlap with every iteration of chasing Bullet Bill. We don't know of which each iteration has been based off of. Also, agreed with SmokedChili. Additionally, if this proposal fails, the best thing to do would be to contact Nintendo about wether the Super Mario Bros. 3, Yoshi's Island, Super Mario Sunshine and current ones are based off of any, and which ones, if not coincidence. The Yoshi's Island iteration might be based off of the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration, but it is also possible that it is a coincidence The Purple Bullet Bill might be based off of one or the other, both, or is like them, coincidence. The modern one can '''only''' be a callback to the Super Mario Bros. 3, if not coincidence, which might have been intended to be a different enemy. IMO, the Biting Bullet Bill should never have been merged here, it should have been merged with Bullet Bill from the start of a proposal. If we knew about that.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per my comments above and some more. First, the name "Missile Bill" came from the Nintendo Power guide, which also split Kyodai Pukupuku into "Boss Bass" and "Big Bertha", which are currently merged on this wiki, so there's basis for that. Second, technical limitations of NES are no excuse for Missile Bills simply switching directions once passing Mario, and no sprite rotation is needed for believable homing behavior when there's Boos chasing Mario as an example. Finally, there are no '"pre-split" Bulls-Eye Bills'; there are only Bullet Bills with homing abilities before Bulls-Eye Bill became its own thing to differentiate them from normal Bullet Bills when those don't chase Mario.
<s>#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Second option. While I personally agree least of all with splitting the ''Yoshi's Island'' red Bullet Bill as it is arguably most approximate to the modern Bull's-Eye Bill and just splitting ''Sunshine'''s Purple Bullet Bill and the original Missile Bill would be the bare minimum required to satisfy ''Super Mario Pia'', this is the nearest available choice. ''Super Mario Pia'' is an admittedly imperfect product, but it only stating modern Bull's-Eye Bill appearances is the closest to an official statement we have on the matter and I don't see significant enough reasons to doubt this case at the moment, at least not to the extent of the English ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia''.</s>
===<s>Split only Mario Party 8's red Bullet Bills</s>===
#{{User|Niiue}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per everything I have said above.
<s>#{{User|TheDarkStar}} Yeah, this is probably the best option.</s><br>
<s>#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per my thoughts in the above discussion. I see no reason to split any of the others.</s>
===Merge the SMB3 Bullet Bills to the Bullet Bill page===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} First option, per SmokedChili. While I am reluctant to split all "predecessors" of the modern Bull's-Eye Bill (particularly the ones that actually demonstrate a dynamic homing behavior), the Missile Bill from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' shows fairly unique behavior in that it performs an abrupt ''about-face'' action that is said to travel back and forth rather than what is described as homing. I'm well aware that this ''can'' be chalked up to technical limitations that later evolved into the version we see today; however, that is an educated guess and not necessarily the case, and I feel like this type of Bullet Bill can just as easily make a reappearance alongside Bull's-Eye Bill on any developer's whim.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Second option, per LinkTheLefty. The rest may still need revisiting, see [[Guided Bullet Bill]].
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Second option, per all for this. At the very least, SMB3 Missile Bills' turn-back behavior upon passing Mario is distinct from chasing Mario that the SM64 Bullet Bills first showed.
===Do nothing===
#{{User|TheDarkStar}} Splitting any "blinky chasy homing bullet bills" from the "blinky chasy homing bullet bill" page simply because they have different Japanese names is beyond ridiculous.
#{{User|Alex95}} - Per my suggestions above. The only one I think that could justify a separate page would be the "Biting" Bullet Bill, but even that would be a stretch.
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per both.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per everything I have said above.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per my thoughts in the above discussion. All of the off-model Bull's-Eye Bills come from games where lots of enemies were already off-model, and the SMB3 ones are way too similar to split. I personally still don't buy them being separate to begin with.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
#{{User|Obsessive Mario Fan}} Per all.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Second option. While ''Super Mario Pia'' does not mention any appearance of Missile Bill / Bull's-Eye Bill earlier than ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', it should be noted that its comprehensiveness in listing appearances is somewhat lacking overall. For example, Togepuku (Spiny Cheep Cheep) is not listed as appearing in "SML2" or "SMG" despite "SMG2" being mentioned, and the "giant" variants of Goomba and Piranha Plant from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' are also ignored (and the latter is apparently conflated with Big Fire Piranha from ''Super Mario 64'') presumably due to the newer "big" name. Therefore, there is room to doubt this book, at least when it comes to its lists of appearances. Additionally, even if Bull's-Eye Bill's behavior was standardized with its name, there is a parallel to be made with Bull's-Eye Banzai's behavioral evolution, itself having limited homing capabilities before having much more dynamic range.
<s>#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Nope, i'd prefer it to be done without a proposal, as Mister Wu pointed out above, and as LinkTheLefty pointed out below.</s>
===Comments===
I agree with keeping everything here, with the exception of Mario Party 8's red Bullet Bills, and I think others who don't want this to be split into pieces would agree with me. Could this be added as an option? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:16, July 24, 2019 (EDT)
:Added. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 19:24, July 24, 2019 (EDT)
::As Mister Wu mentioned, the ''Mario Party 8'' oddity probably could have been easily handled before a proposal since it seemed like a clear-cut case and no one was objecting to it. Just for clarification, to "split only" mean to merge it into the main Bullet Bill article, right? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:46, July 24, 2019 (EDT)
:::Yes. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 21:06, July 24, 2019 (EDT)
Technically, it was sorta a color variation in the English ''Sunshine'' guide, but I stand by my thoughts that the chasy ones from before are just a "pre-split" Bull's-Eye Bill (for Japan). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:11, July 24, 2019 (EDT)
:Like i said above, this one wouldn't need a proposal, and should be a standalone, with the proposal being only for the rest. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 01:54, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
::Also, it would still need talk to, since we still have the others to treat. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 04:01, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
:::@TheDarkStar "I don't see why a proposal would be necessary to split an enemy that doesn't even act like a Missile Bill." --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 04:05, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
::::The difference being that I was specifically asked to add the option. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:39, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
@SmokedChili Again I differ you to [[Bouncing Bullet Bill]] and [[Relay Heihō]], which clearly had "pre-split" versions. To only count the YNI versions of not prior in those cases is absurd. Why should this be any different? As for the sprite rotation thing, a bullet has to travel in the direction the pointy end is. Traveling upwards at a 78 degree angle while facing flat to the side would look really weird for pointed ammunition. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 04:54, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
I'm sorry, but the ''Mario Party 8'' red Bullet Bills '''must''' be fixed immediately and taken out of proposal. They are not player-seeking Bullet Bills, have no reason to stay here and we can't bind their fate to a proposal over an actual disagreement, since a consensus was already reached. Proposals should never deal with decisions that already have a consensus, as the policy states.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:48, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
Another separate point: ''Missile Bills'' is not used by Nintendo of America in its directly-produced material (manuals, in-game text et al.) to refer to the ''Search Killers'', with them rather using the unique term ''Bull's Eye Bills'', ''Missile Bills'' referred to ''Search Killers'' was used exclusively in the Prima guide of ''New Super Mario Wii''. As such, the ''Missile Bills'' term used to generally refer to Bull's Eye Bills in all their appearances is misleading (and it would be against naming policy if it ended up in the main page).--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 09:33, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
:Naming policy specifies how Prima (generally) stands in pre-''Super Mario Galaxy'' guides, as ''Super Paper Mario'' is the last game in the ''Mario'' series to be covered by Nintendo Power, though I'd suggest replacing the "Split only Mario Party 8's red Bullet Bills" option with "Split only Super Mario Bros. 3's Missile Bills" since SmokedChili raised some good points (and once again, Bullet Bills with that same behavior have room to return). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:08, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
::I was referring to ''the first appearance of Missile Bills'', here ''Missile Bills'' is mentioned as a term referring to ''Search Killer'' in all the games it had appeared, due to that Prima guide, we don't have a single corresponding term for ''Search Killer'', so we should be careful when wording proposals.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:13, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
:I can't really remove the option, as that would be altering other users' comments. Four people have voted there already. I added it per request. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:34, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
::''Mario Party 8'' is overwhelmingly agreed upon, with the one "do nothing" vote being in favor of deciding through discussion rather than proposal, so I think you can use a <nowiki><s>strikethrough</s></nowiki>. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:37, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
:::I don't mean to literally put the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' option in its place, since they did not vote on it. Add the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' option as a separate header; ''Mario Party 8'' just had no business here because it is simply not a point of contention with current info. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:49, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
::::Done. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:51, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
:::::Thanks. That part of policy is not well known, this is why I made that first point, sorry if that sounded harsh.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:13, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
::::::Please take a look at current state of the article, as it groups non-Bull's-Eye Bill enemies into there, which might or might not be coincidentally similar to each other. Ukiki is probably a comparable situation. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:17, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::No it's not, as those actually had behavioral differences. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 12:19, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::If this proposal fails, it might need revisiting at some point. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:20, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::Same could be said about ''any'' proposal. You don't need to bring this up just because ''you'' disagree with the direction it's going. Seriously, that's annoying. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:32, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
@LinkTheLefty As I already said, the ''Sunshine'' purple Bullet Bill's behavior is essentially a 3D rendition of the SMB3 Missile Bill's behavior. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:01, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
:Could you add "Merge YISMA3 Bullet Bill to Bullet Bill", "Merge both SMB3 and YISMA3 Bullet Bills to Bullet Bill", and "Split Puprle Bullet Bill"? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:01, July 26, 2019 (EDT)
::In my opinion, six options is going a bit overboard. Merging Purple Bullet Bill would be unpopular, and therefore unnecessary. We don't need to go into "merge this thing, merge this other thing" types of options, since that may overwhelm people. The SMA3 Missile Bill is a homing red Bullet Bill, so it's likely to be unpopular as well. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:16, July 26, 2019 (EDT)
:::I meant split Purple Bullet Bill unto its own article. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:19, July 26, 2019 (EDT)
::::Really, I'd more like for Guided Bullet Bill to be merged here. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:21, July 26, 2019 (EDT)
:::::They're a subspecies, are <u>'''slower'''</u>, and can move in more angles than a Bull's-Eye Bill. That'd be like merging the [[Climbing Koopa]] with [[Koopa Troopa]]. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:24, July 26, 2019 (EDT)
::::::Last I checked, Bull's-Eye Bills could move in any angle, too. Speed decrease does not a split make. And no, Climbing Koopas actually act different from Koopas, in that they climb on fences. Biting Bullet Bill is just a Missile Bill that futilely tries to eat you. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:47, July 26, 2019 (EDT)
@TheDarkStar By your vote, it's also beyond ridiculous that SMG Bullet Bills are not on "blinky chasy homing bullet bill" page because they are "blinky chasy homing bullet bills" just with a different Japanese name.<br>
@Doc von Schmeltwick You're making the case for believable homing on the NES more complicated than it is. I can think of three solutions myself. First, make additional sprites for up, down and diagonal positions for the Bills and have them change directions at 45 degrees to chase Mario, which is what I've seen done in ''Mega Man 5''. Second, what I said earlier about changing altitude and using Boos as an example, doesn't have to be your exaggerated numbers like 72 degrees or whatever. Third, combine the two solutions with full Mario-seeking capacities and changing between the eight directional sprites depending on the angle. And no, purple Bullet Bill's turning around while actively chasing Mario isn't a 3D rendition of turning around upon passing Mario and keeping flying in one direction. What a few quotes we have from the Japanese books about SMB3 Missile Bills don't even talk about them chasing Mario. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 05:55, July 27, 2019 (EDT)
:While yes, that is possible, and I have sprited that very solution myself, it would be, say, a little OP given SMB3's gameplay. But that's just me. I still think it's a direct enough "ancestor" to the modern concept, sort of like Grinder and Ukiki. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:26, July 27, 2019 (EDT)
:Thing is, the SMG Bullet Bill was referred to as such in all sources, unlike the Purple Bullet Bill and Biting Bullet Bill. It didn't continuously flash, and it was clearly a Bullet Bill. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 21:56, July 28, 2019 (EDT)
::SMS Purple Bullet Bill is also clearly a Bullet Bill and didn't "flash" all the time, only when it starts seeking Mario, which is what SMG Bullet Bill does too. Besides, "Purple Bullet Bill" comes from a Prima guide where palette swaps have seemingly the color made a part of their name if the sourcing on this wiki is to be believed. So if anything, SMS Bullet Bill has an otherwise unspecified palette swap that targets Mario, while SMG Bullet Bill comes in one color that targets Mario. As for "Biting Bullet Bill", I don't know whether you made that up or if it comes from a guide, but given my stance on the localized YI names, I wouldn't be surprised if the writer(s) just took creative liberties with a color variant if the latter is true. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 06:27, July 29, 2019 (EDT)
:::Regular Bullet Bills appear in SMS too, so by that logic, ''every'' variant of Bullet Bill is clearly a Bullet Bill. The regular Bullet Bills don't home in, Purple Bullet Bills do. Considering it just another Bullet Bill would be downright misleading, since regular Bullet Bills are in there too. I honestly don't know what source "Biting Bullet Bill" came from, but it's a logical name, given Bouncing Bullet Bill. It doesn't matter whether it was named in a Prima guide, since [[MarioWiki:Naming]] states that Prima guides are perfectly acceptable sources. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig|thinks Purple Bullet Bills are Missile Bills.}} 06:58, July 29, 2019 (EDT)
::::For clarification, "Biting Bullet Bill" was a conjectural name made up by the wiki in 2007 because they try to "eat Mario" (though not exactly true since other enemies from the game like Piranha Plant and Lunge Fish exhibit that behavior), and to confirm, the purple Bullet Bill, like the pink Boo, only have their colors capitalized in the Prima guide. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:42, July 29, 2019 (EDT)
::::Is it really misleading to call Purple Bullet Bill a Bullet Bill since that's essentially what available sources call it; Bullet Bill (of different color). No distinguishing names like Missile Bill or Bulls-Eye Bill. It's Bullet Bill that seeks Mario, compared to Bullet Bill that doesn't. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 06:18, August 1, 2019 (EDT)
:::::That's exactly it: the Purple Bullet Bills have ''behavioral differences'' from the regular Bullet Bills. Just because "Purple Bullet Bill" was from the Prima guide doesn't eternally disqualify it from being a name. "Purple Bullet Bill", despite its Prima-ness, is still a more name-like name than "Bullet Bill (purple)". Prima guides are valid sources, despite their [[Bull's-Eye Banzai|many]] [[Fish Bone|mess-ups]]. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 06:52, August 1, 2019 (EDT)
::::::No, that's not "exactly it". As LinkTheLefty said, only the Prima guide capitalized the colors for the purple Bullet Bill and the pink Boo, and I presume this applies to the Electro-Koopas too. Taking "Purple Bullet Bill" at face value would ignore why this is the case; maybe the capitalized colors are just a stylistic choice on the writers' part. Given how everything else we have from internal names to other publications make the "Purple Bullet Bill" just Bullet Bill, there's thus more reason to move it to the Bullet Bill article than keep it on Bull's-Eye Bill's. After all, its treatment is that of a palette swap. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 09:06, August 3, 2019 (EDT)
Here's what I think: Regular Bullet Bills appear in SMB3, SMA3 and SMS. In SMB3, the Bull's-Eye Bills move back toward Mario while regular Bullet Bills don't. Just because they don't flash before targeting doesn't mean merging with Bullet Bill. In SMA3, Bull's-Eye Bills are red and still function differently from regular Bullet Bills, still chasing the player unlike regular ones. As for SMS, the Purple Bullet Bills still home in on Mario. Pretty much [[Bob-omb|every]] [[Blooper|returning]] [[Cheep Cheep|enemy]] has a different design and we keep their SMS appearance in the same article. I don't see why we should treat this one differently other than the slightly different name. We're also treating [[Gold Bullet Bill]]s the same. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 16:42, July 27, 2019 (EDT)
:::::Is the wording change ok on the page to make it look like less speculative about if they are the same or not in certain sections? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:53, July 31, 2019 (EDT)
::::::Since a complete agreement on that hasn't been reached, I think that could work for now. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 12:21, July 31, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::I see... --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 15:24, August 1, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::@TheDarkStar, like i said, Guided Bullet Bill is a '''''<u>subspecies</u>''''', and '''''<u>not</u>''''' the same enemy. If anything, Guided Bullet Bill is a subspecies of Bullet Bill. Normal Bullet Bills also looked like that. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:13, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::They look exactly like Purple Bullet Bill except for color. We’ve established countless times in the past that color variants shouldn’t be split solely because of the color. It makes no sense to refer to GBB as a subspecies of BB when it’s clearly a Purple BB. I’m pretty sure that the Bullet Bills in Sunshine didn’t have blinky noses, but I might be wrong. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 12:25, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::[[File:Bullet Bill SMS.png|100px]]<br>The regular ones didn't have blinky noses. Also, the [[Guided Bullet Bill]]s are slower than the purple ones and are capable of moving up and down. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 12:31, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::Thanks. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 12:34, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::Also, Prima does treat Purple Bullet Bill differently, but so does it to the Electro-Koopas, namely red and blue, which have enough differences to be split. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:54, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::::”They treated another, clearly different species that do not behave in any way like any other enemy as a different species in a guide” is not a valid reason to split an article. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 13:18, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::::I was mainly referring to SmokedChili. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:23, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::::OK, there seems to be a misunderstanding here. GBB don't really move "up and down" per se, it's more that they slowly descend as they actively follow Mario . PBB rises from is cannon, goes down an arc until it's right above the ground, and then acts as a more persistent version of the MB from SMB3, shooting forward in straight patterns and doing a thin u-turn when it's missed. Normal Bullet Bills, to compare, just go along that downward arc and hit the ground. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:06, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Speaking of behavioral differences, I forgot something: Bull's-Eye Banzai (King Bill / Magnum Search Killer) originally had limited movement only homing up and down, and did not turn around, yet their modern appearance in ''Super Mario Maker 2'' gives them the same range as Bull's-Eye Bill. Obviously, we consider the first appearance of it to be in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', but admittedly, this does give credence to the notion that Missile Bill simply had a design evolution over time despite lacking the current name. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:25, August 7, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I personally view it as an evolution that gradaully led to the current Bull's-Eye Bills, still there being an evolution that can be tracked back to those first Missile Bills in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' is something I agree with, and that evolution is still going on, as you correctly pointed out. Gameplay-related aspects in particular are constantly evolving.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:30, August 7, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Huh, I thought I mentioned that, but I guess not.... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:40, August 7, 2019 (EDT)
Thanks to {{User|Time Turner}}, here are the names of the Purple Bullet Bills in the English guides that name them (the Nintendo Power guide doesn't):
<blockquote>
'''Prima''': "Purple Bullet Bills home in on your location." / "Special Purple Bullet Bills in Corona Mountain drop 1-Up Mushrooms."<br>
'''BradyGames''': "Bullet Bill: Purple Bills are guided." / "Chorobe fires black and purple Bullet Bills from the barrels of the cannon."<br>
'''Versus''': "There are three kinds of Bullet Bills: [...] "Purple ones intelligently hone in on you" / "If you seek Blue coins, wait behind the six baskets scattered around the level and let the Purple Bullet Blues destroy them for you. If it's Gold Coins you seek, hold your ground and use your Squirt Nozzle to destroy all the approaching Bullet Bills; even the Purple and Black ones yield two coins a pop. Splash a few of the cash-filled Yellow ones, and 100 Gold Coins, here we come."
</blockquote>
The first ''Purple Bullet Blues'' is an actual typo of the Versus guide.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:16, August 7, 2019 (EDT)
Furthermore, I uploaded the scans of the entries of the ''Super Mario Sunshine'' Bullet Bill variants {{file link|SMS ESMB Bullet Bills.png|in the Japanese ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.''}} as well as {{file link|SMS NOG Bullet Bills.png|in the Nintendo Official Guidebook of that game}}. This is more for future reference, since a discussion over these Bullet Bills variants started here.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 11:30, August 7, 2019 (EDT)
:So two guides distinguish it, with one mistankely calling it Purple Bullet Blue. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:21, August 7, 2019 (EDT)
==Biting Bullet Bill==
Biting Bullet Bill slowly disappears after a while, instead of flying offscreen like the other Missile Bills. Should it be split into its own article? {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:29, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
:I don't think so, it's still a bitey-chasy homing Bullet Bill that targets the player. How it exits the screen isn't a big enough difference to consider them completely different. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 11:25, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
::It's an unofficial name, perhaps merging it to Bullet Bill to counter the previous proposal that decided to merge it ''here''? Since the wording has been changed i am neutral to the current state of the article, but still thinks about what i've wrote above. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:53, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
:::It ''was'' it's own article, but I proposed to have it merged, and that went through. I stand by what I said then. Plenty of SMW2 enemy behavior had new behaviors added that didn't really stick around aside from the <s>clones</s> sequels, like the suddenly-growing and actually-carnivorous Piranha Plants. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:31, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
::::Yes, i don't necessarily disagree with it being here, but, the Japanese source treated as such. Like i said, my thoughts about current state is neutral, but i still stand my thoughts. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 03:19, August 20, 2019 (EDT)
==Determine how to reorganize SMB3 Bill==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|red|Leave as-is 5-0-7}}
This is something that's been on my mind since [[Talk:Guided Bullet Bill#Merge to Bull's-Eye Bill or Bullet Bill (or both)|this proposal]]. Simply put, with Purple Bullet Bill and Guided Bullet Bill merged back into Bullet Bill, it makes sense to focus on the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' Missile Bill. To recap, "Missile Bill" refers to both the early ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' and the current ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' ones, which have different behavior; the former just performs one immediate 180° about-face when passing its target, whereas the latter curves and accurately homes in on its target and takes its time pulling off a full circle rotation. You could say that this is due to the limitation not showing off the its dynamic motion, but when the limitation or lack thereof changes how the player fundamentally interacts with it, at what point do you consider it the same thing? As far as Japanese sources go, it's been referred to as both an unnamed subtype (described as taking a U-turn) and 「{{ruby|往復|おうふく}}キラー」(''Ōfuku Kirā'', Roundtrip Killer) in an older source; the English [https://archive.ph/0bmQD Mario Portal] recently does not mention it. So for this proposal, I'm including two options: the first option is to split off Missile Bill entirely as its own article, with a note at the top of the page stating that it was also the initial name for Bull's-Eye Bill; the second option is to merge the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' content into the main Bullet Bill and turn Missile Bill into a disambiguation page ala Boss Bass / Big Bertha.
Note that I'm not including the red ''Yoshi's Island'' Bullet Bill for now because I feel that out of all of the pre-NSMBW ones, it's still the most analogous to modern Bull's-Eye Bill, [[Bouncing Bullet Bill|its color counterpart]] did get fully split later on, and it almost undoubtedly would've been considered a full-fledged Bull's-Eye Bill had it made the cut in ''Yoshi's New Island''.
'''Proposer''': {{User|LinkTheLefty}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>December 31, 2022, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>Extended to January 7, 2023, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to January 14, 2023, 23:59 GMT
===Split Missile Bill (''Super Mario Bros. 3'')===
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} My preference as I feel like this can easily make a reappearance separate from either sometime.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} The original Missile Bills never were homing Bullet Bills in the first place, and the Japanese guides, both modern and of the times, never pretended they were (which is why the names of the original Missile Bills found in them are different from ''Search Killer''). While we might argue that this U turn behavior was the first test of a behavior that eventually became a proper homing behavior, that is mostly a reconstruction that we do and that might have some merit to it, but still isn't enough for the original Missile Bills to be stated that they were homing in the Japanese ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', to name a recent example (and mind you, the original Japanese one was written along with Nintendo, so it is nowhere near as problematic as its translations).
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
<s>#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, especially the point about it being distinguished in Japanese sources.</s>
===Merge Missile Bill (''Super Mario Bros. 3'') with Bullet Bill===
===Leave Missile Bill (''Super Mario Bros. 3'') in Bull's-Eye Bill===
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I don't see the value in splitting a flashing Bullet Bill that chases you called a Missile Bill from a flashing Bullet Bill that chases you called a Missile Bill. If the Japanese names were the same from the get-go this wouldn't even be brought up at all. Whether it's meant to be the exact same entity in SMB3 and NSMBW or not, it's similar enough to keep it all in one place.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per Waluigi Time. I do not see the point in this.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} I believe they are the same enemy.
#{{User|Somethingone}} - I honestly fail to see how this case is any different from [[Ukiki]], who had a different English & Japanese name in their debut, was renamed in Japanese before it was renamed in English, & then when the newer English name came out nothing much had changed functionally or design-wise since then. If them being treated as a Bullet Bill variation in Japan only happened in SMB3 & Mario Portal listed them as a color variation of Bullet Bill via making Bullet Bull's image entry a mini-gallery & not just ignoring them entirely, then I would be in support of this. The difference between this and the SMS variation is that in Sunshine there were 2 other variations that also chased the player and none of the Bullet Bills in that game were red.
#{{User|Swallow}} Per all
#{{User|Hewer}} Since the main reason I was supporting turned out to be me not reading the proposal correctly, per all.
===Comments===
@Waluigi Time: To be fair, the ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' Prima guide is also the reason we're stuck with the King Bill confusion, and they evidently didn't get the memo about the Koopalings yet (and I forgot that modern Bull's-Eye Bill flashed since they don't do that outside ''Mario Party 9'' and the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games), though as I said, this proposal exists because the Purple/Guided Bullet Bill merge now makes this one stand out like a sore thumb in my opinion. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:05, December 18, 2022 (EST)
I feel like I might have misinterpreted something here - when you say Missile Bills were once identified as "an unnamed subtype", do you mean a subtype of standard Bullet Bill or of Bull's-Eye Bill? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:04, January 6, 2023 (EST)
:A subtype of Bullet Bill, specifically; Bull's-Eye Bill doesn't have any subtypes unless you counted the ''Super Mario Sunshine'' colors, but that was [[Talk:Guided Bullet Bill#Merge to Bull's-Eye Bill or Bullet Bill (or both)|another proposal]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:30, January 6, 2023 (EST)
:I'm personally puzzled how that changes anything. Mister Wu puts it well. Also, Boos from the same game will actively home in on you; Missile Bills just turn around once. Different behavior entirely. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:32, January 6, 2023 (EST)
::It's about as homey as they could get on NES, since sprite rotation just plain isn't a thing on that level of processing power; ESMB/MP not even mentioning them makes this a bit more frustrating, though I want to point out how much the SMMSMB3 sprite resembles the red palette (minus flash) on the original SMB3. SMA3's also does u-turns, just with added rotation. I'm abstaining this round since I can see it go either way. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:36, January 6, 2023 (EST)
:::Why would Missile Bills need sprite rotation for more elaborate homing if Boos do just fine without? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 03:46, January 7, 2023 (EST)
::::Same reason Boo's only slightly rotate to this day; they're floating ghosts. With ammunition rounds, you expect it to go the direction of the pointed end. It also is probably the reason Fire Chomp was faceless most of the time in SMB3, as that makes it appear more flexible. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:30, January 7, 2023 (EST)
:::::Sounds like realism for the sake of realism. Boos didn't have sprite rotation or extra sprites back in the day and their movements worked fine with what they were limited to, so logically a homing Bullet Bill could achieve the same on NES. Just sprites for facing left and right and code them to seek Mario's current position. Like how [[Mask Gate]] works. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 12:34, January 7, 2023 (EST)
::::::For a bullet/missile, that's just off. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:49, January 7, 2023 (EST)
:::::::Couldn't they have used a different sprite if they really wanted to? Like, round off the back to have it resemble a cannonball, for example? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:07, January 8, 2023 (EST)
::To answer why this made me change my vote, the only reason I was supporting at first is because I thought the proposal said that a Japanese source once addressed Missile Bills as an unnamed subtype of Bull's-Eye Bills (i.e. a separate thing from Bull's-Eye Bills), though in hindsight I should've realised that wasn't the case sooner given we probably would already have split them if it was. That was the only point that convinced me as I think the others are just too speculative, so now I've opposed. I'm not really sure where this talk of homing and rotation came from, I don't remember ever mentioning that. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:49, January 7, 2023 (EST)
:::By "unnamed subtype" in Japanese sources, I mean that it was also just considered a Bullet Bill with alternate behavior, sort of like a color variant. [[Bull's-Eye Bill#Names in other languages|It's cited as such in the article.]] Technically, the second option might be the least speculative, but it's also the least popular. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:11, January 7, 2023 (EST)
One question: if this passes, will Bull's-Eye Bill be considered a variant of Bullet Bill or of Missile Bill? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 09:09, January 8, 2023 (EST)
:Hmm, it's too late to specify that in the proposal, and same goes for what to do with Bull's-Eye Blaster, so these decisions will just have to be informal. If the first option passes, I'd be fine with considering Bull's-Eye Bill as either a variant or relative of Missile Bill. Bull's-Eye Blaster would probably necessarily have to be split as "Turtle Cannon (Missile Bill)" ala Torpedo Base (Targeting Ted). Open to other suggestions, though. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:26, January 8, 2023 (EST)
Sorry if I'm wrong, but shouldn't this proposal have failed already? There were 12 voters at the second deadline, half of which is 6, and 7 opposers. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:49, January 10, 2023 (EST)
== Chinese Names ==
What's the official Chinese name of this? [[User:Ffffff|Ffffff]] ([[User talk:Ffffff|talk]]) 19:05, June 1, 2024 (EDT)
:The name was added. --[[User:PhGuy12|PhGuy12]] ([[User talk:PhGuy12|talk]]) 15:20, June 2, 2024 (EDT)
== Super mario sunshine? ==
So you know super mario sunshine, which has purple bullet bills that home at the player? Well I think we should merge them as to being the same enemy as [[Bull's-Eye Bill]]s. Despite being purple,this the closest resemblance of them being bullseye bills because the other homing bullet bills didn't seem to be worth it enough(since not all homing bullet bills are bullseye bills). ([[User talk:31.127.147.101|talk]]) 7:39, October 8, 2024 (EDT)
:While certainly mechanically similar, the purple Bullet Bills are not recognized as the same enemy as Bull's-Eye Bill, and these also are not even the only varieties of Bullet Bill that home-in on the player, if I recall correctly. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 10:11, October 8, 2024 (EDT)
Oh yeah, right. The [[Cat Bullet Bill|Cat Bullet Bills]] from super mario 3d world, I can't believe I forgot them, anyways thanks for your time, you users are amazing! ([[User talk:31.127.147.101|talk]]) 16:04,  Wednesday 6, 2024

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