Editing Talk:Kamek

== Split Giant Kamek from Kamek ==

The names are different in English ''and'' Japanese, Giant Kamek doesn't even look like Kamek, and the only evidence that they're the same is the description calling it "a Kamek made huge by magic", which is likely just a bad translation considering the Japanese names of Kamek and regular Magikoopas being exactly the same.

:::Yes, it was likely more a joke about his "nanny"-like role and appearance in that game than anything. Given the fact that the babies are not only there, but important to the plot, that being a different Magikoopa from the one in SMW2 seems highly unlikely. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:53, October 14, 2020 (EDT)

::I did consider the fact that it could be out of ignorance, but at least from what I found searching on Twitter and Niconico, most Japanese fans seem to have taken that comment at face value. Anyway, I'll add it to the article but I won't make any conclusions one way or another. --[[User:PaperSplash|PaperSplash]] ([[User talk:PaperSplash|talk]]) 22:58, October 20, 2020 (EDT)

== Secret Junior weakness? ==

Is there any text in the games where they explicitly deny the idea of them being related or that he merely raised/adopted Bowser? [[User:Tyciol|ty]] ([[User talk:Tyciol|talk]]) 19:06, February 16, 2022 (EST)

:That is nothing but speculation so none of that is going in the article. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 19:17, February 16, 2022 (EST)

== SMRPG redux ==

== Include pre-SMW2 singular appearances on this page ==

This page currently lists every singular appearance of generic Magikoopas as being the same entity... but only the ones from ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'' onwards. The reason for this is the outdated Anglocentric perception that SMW2 "invented" Kamek, when in reality he was, is, and always will be just a singular depiction of a generic Magikoopa, akin to how [[Toad]] and [[Yoshi]] are depicted, and this appearance merely codified several traits of the subject. There is no reason for the pre-SMW2 ones to not be on here, again similar to how Toad and Yoshi are handled.

*''Super Mario-kun'' (SMW arc) - A singular Magikoopa is a major antagonist, with a role similar to later games, and if I recall correctly, ''Manga Mania'' just goes ahead and calls him Kamek.

*''Yoshi's Safari'' - A single Magikoopa is a late-game boss, and even makes himself gigantic, much like they'd be known to do with other creatures.

*''Super Mario World'' TV - "That's Wizenheimer! '''WIZ'''enheimer!" While generally only one Koopa Wizard is seen at a time, they are still clearly depicted as being more than one, and the most important one had an actually-distinct name.

*''Nintendo Adventure Books'' - While there is a single Magikoopa character in it, he is notably distinct for being portrayed as Bowser's distant cousin. Maybe he could get his own article? I don't know.

*''Super Mario Adventures'' - There are actually two Magikoopas in this comic, both high-ranking. One is an immediate aide to Bowser and as such virtually indistinguishable from the current content of this page. The other is a distinct-looking old one who hypnotizes the princess. This proposal may add the former; the latter could potentially get his own article later since he has an actual important role and distinct appearance.

#Item 1

#Item 2

#Item...4?

Please either remove the quote altogether, or change it into something in-line like this:

== Split Wizakoopa (i.e., the ''Super Mario RPG'' boss character) ==

This is why I play the long game. The remake (coming out a few days before this proposal will end) has effectively confirmed that the boss Magikoopa from ''Super Mario RPG'' that everyone "knows" is Kamek thanks to the thought Easter egg is, in fact, a completely original character unique to that game, and has even relocalized the name from simply "Magikoopa" to "'''Wiza'''koopa," <small><small>("That's [[Wizenheimer]]! '''WIZ'''-enheimer!")</small></small> matching the unique Japanese name of ''Kamezard''. I already had a demo of a split page from well before the remake was even a pipe dream [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Kamezard|here]], for the record, so it can be used as a draft for the split.

#{{User|DrippingYellow}} I really do not see any connection between Wizakoopa and Kamek, other than both of them being high-ranking Magikoopas and characters in their own right. The [[Psychopath]] quote being a reference to ''Yoshi's Island'' doesn't convince me either. Was Kamek really the ''only'' Magikoopa to exist back then? (Not talking about in-game appearances, just logically). And aren't the [[Toadies]] also Magikoopas?

#{{User|Qyzxf}} - I feel like there is absolutely no reason that this didn't have its own page already—not to mention that it's been included on Kamek's page instead of Magikoopa's. The remake is very clearly establishing that this is not Kamek or just any ol Magikoopa, although the original Japanese script already did that anyway by giving him a new, different name. This is exactly the same case as Snifits from this game being wrongly localised which was also corrected in the remake. Per all above.

===Oppose===

#{{User|Mariuigi Khed}} The split up has a base to stand on, but I'm not really on board with it because this Magikoopa had two different Japanese names. Therefor, I would like to make the counter-proposition to yes, create a new page for Wizakoopa but treat him like a remake exclusive character, since in the original he has (or shares with) the name "Kamek". I think this could be like what they did with [[Psycho Kamek]] and [[Dr. Toadley]].

#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per Seandwalsh.

===Comments===

I get the enthusiasm, but I really think the Monster List will be the deciding factor in all of this, given how it greatly expands on the enemy profiles. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:07, November 5, 2023 (EST)

: If anything changes, we can just move the appropriate section. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 13:09, November 6, 2023 (EST)

@Seandwalsh: 2 things: 1. Despite the Psychopath quote, Kamek doesn't react to Bowser if he's in the party ("RUN FOR IT!", paraphrased of course), 2. Magikoopas were intended to be generic enemies going by early screenshots. "Kamezard" was just a stronger red variant at that point in time. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 15:38, November 6, 2023 (EST)

:I am referring to the Japanese (and now relocalised English) quote, in which he calls MARIO "the baby from that time" (or something along those lines). 2. That’s incorrect, the specific hypnotised Magikoopa boss was just called Kamek. --[[User:Seandwalsh|Seandwalsh]] ([[User talk:Seandwalsh|talk]]) 21:38, November 18, 2023 (EST)

@Mariuigi Khed: So, you don't like it with this character? There's also the fact that he's called Wizakoopa in the English remake, meaning he'd have to be renamed or split anyways. Plus, it appears that the SMW2 quote is an Easter Egg and you said there is grounds for a split. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 15:42, November 6, 2023 (EST)

@Seandwalsh: Peach and Toadstool is not a comparable situation at all. That's a name change that only exists in the English version, whereas this character has a different name from Kamek in both English and Japanese. Not to mention numerous sources that directly confirm Toadstool is Peach, which don't exist here. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:18, November 7, 2023 (EST)

:Peach and Toadstool is directly comparable. Kamezard, much like Princess Peach, is the new, relocalised and more accurate name for the same character. As I said the character was clearly an early attempt to give Kamek a unique name in Japanese, hence the blatant reference to Yoshi’s Island. That’s the source that exists here. This is open-and-shut. It’s Kamek. --[[User:Seandwalsh|Seandwalsh]] ([[User talk:Seandwalsh|talk]]) 21:38, November 18, 2023 (EST)

@PrincessPeachFan: More or less, I think this is something like what they did with [[Dr. Toadley]] and [[Psycho Kamek]]: these two titles are using two different characters for the same role (that also, from fan to fan, didn't really need a replacement). I feel that we should keep the ''Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars'' section here in Kamek's page, and Wizakoopa treat him like he just a ''Super Mario RPG'' character and nothing more. It's mostly the Japanese name that is bugging me in not picking a correct side. For the Japanese, the Kamek figure was already a thing, before us non-Japanese declare "ok, this is ONE specific Magikoopa" in SMW2:YI. I'm more bugged by this. If the names were the same between versions, I would accept this, but as for now, I can't remove the idea that they had Kamek in the game and now, for Master Hand knows for what reason, not anymore. {{User:Mariuigi_Khed/sig}} 12:09, November 7, 2023 (EST)

:: Yeah, that's the whole thing, Wizakoopa here is the leader of Bowser's Magikoopa group with the Thought Peek thing being an Easter Egg and again, he was originally just supposed to be a stronger Magikoopa. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:01, November 8, 2023 (EST)

So... given the circumstances under why this information has been removed, is it true that this is just speculation on our part? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:01, November 2, 2023 (EDT)