Editing Talk:Mario Kart Wii

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== Course template ==
== Course template ==
{{Talk}}
Personally, I prefer the old revision. It looks more in-line with the rest on the page, it includes the course banner when the other one doesn't, and the staff ghost information is more readable. I'd argue to remove the internal course names since there already is a clear in-game name and that information isn't relevant for the casual reader, but I do like this layout better. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 15:50, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
Personally, I prefer the old revision. It looks more in-line with the rest on the page, it includes the course banner when the other one doesn't, and the staff ghost information is more readable. I'd argue to remove the internal course names since there already is a clear in-game name and that information isn't relevant for the casual reader, but I do like this layout better. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 15:50, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:For the record, I removed the banners because one image of the course seemed sufficient (and only so much space on the table, so something had to give). In my opinion, the biggest problems with the old revision are 1. it's too big and takes up way more space than it needs to, I can't even fit two courses' worth of information on my screen at once, 2. the layout is confusing, tables should read from left to right and use one row per subject (tables are very frequently misused and abused elsewhere on the wiki, but that's beside the point), and 3. a lot of the staff ghost information is obfuscated by images with no accompanying text, which is very bad for accessibility. I'm open to suggestions for how to make these better, and to be honest I'd be totally fine if the consensus is to just revert everything back to how it was before with a simple course listing and separate table of staff ghosts. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:34, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
:For the record, I removed the banners because one image of the course seemed sufficient (and only so much space on the table, so something had to give). In my opinion, the biggest problems with the old revision are 1. it's too big and takes up way more space than it needs to, I can't even fit two courses' worth of information on my screen at once, 2. the layout is confusing, tables should read from left to right and use one row per subject (tables are very frequently misused and abused elsewhere on the wiki, but that's beside the point), and 3. a lot of the staff ghost information is obfuscated by images with no accompanying text, which is very bad for accessibility. I'm open to suggestions for how to make these better, and to be honest I'd be totally fine if the consensus is to just revert everything back to how it was before with a simple course listing and separate table of staff ghosts. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:34, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
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==Decide how to present courses==
==Decide how to present courses==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{TPP}}
{{proposal outcome|passed|2-1-19-4|revert to original design}}
About a month ago, I started overhauling the course tables after discussions with several community members who were unhappy with their current state. I only completed the new courses before getting pushback, so I left it alone in the hopes that discussion would give a general consensus on what we should go with. As far as I can tell, no consensus has emerged and that discussion has stalled for several weeks. In the meantime, the course listing is split in half between two designs which isn't ideal, especially for a featured article. I think it's about time we just go to a proposal and pick one.
About a month ago, I started overhauling the course tables after discussions with several community members who were unhappy with their current state. I only completed the new courses before getting pushback, so I left it alone in the hopes that discussion would give a general consensus on what we should go with. As far as I can tell, no consensus has emerged and that discussion has stalled for several weeks. In the meantime, the course listing is split in half between two designs which isn't ideal, especially for a featured article. I think it's about time we just go to a proposal and pick one.


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#{{User|YoYo}} per all
#{{User|YoYo}} per all
#{{User|Lakituthequick}} These tables do not need all the things, as the 2010 meme goes. I will go into more detail about some design considerations in a comment below, but the main thing here is that tables should not be used for layout and the tables here should just list the courses. I do suggest rotating the table such that there is a row per cup instead of columns.
#{{User|Lakituthequick}} These tables do not need all the things, as the 2010 meme goes. I will go into more detail about some design considerations in a comment below, but the main thing here is that tables should not be used for layout and the tables here should just list the courses. I do suggest rotating the table such that there is a row per cup instead of columns.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
#{{User|Yook Bab-imba}} Per Koopa con Carne. I find this option too basic-looking, and I like the idea of having the map, but the way it's been implemented is not visually appealing. The audio files for each one is too much.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I'll be honest, adding in the music, having headers for different cups, even trying to squeeze the course maps alongside images of the courses — I just don't think the ''game'' article is the place to do all this when users could just click on the link.
#{{User|Bro Hammer}} - Per all.


===Do nothing (no binding decision, allow further options/discussion)===
===Do nothing (no binding decision, allow further options/discussion)===
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::**"HTML tables should be used for tabular data — this is what they are designed for. Unfortunately, a lot of people used to use HTML tables to lay out web pages, e.g. one row to contain the header, one row to contain the content columns, one row to contain the footer, etc. [...] This was commonly used because CSS support across browsers used to be terrible; table layouts are much less common nowadays, but you might still see them in some corners of the web." (this section continues [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/HTML/Tables/Basics#when_should_you_not_use_html_tables with more points])
::**"HTML tables should be used for tabular data — this is what they are designed for. Unfortunately, a lot of people used to use HTML tables to lay out web pages, e.g. one row to contain the header, one row to contain the content columns, one row to contain the footer, etc. [...] This was commonly used because CSS support across browsers used to be terrible; table layouts are much less common nowadays, but you might still see them in some corners of the web." (this section continues [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/HTML/Tables/Basics#when_should_you_not_use_html_tables with more points])
::Use of galleries is indeed subjective, however, for the issues you raise, there are a few display modes for galleries as listed in [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images#mode_parameter the MediaWiki docs]. Especially <code>mode="packed"</code> is of interest in course galleries, and attributes such as <code>widths</code> and <code>heights</code> exist to make images larger. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 16:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
::Use of galleries is indeed subjective, however, for the issues you raise, there are a few display modes for galleries as listed in [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images#mode_parameter the MediaWiki docs]. Especially <code>mode="packed"</code> is of interest in course galleries, and attributes such as <code>widths</code> and <code>heights</code> exist to make images larger. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 16:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
:::Dedicated layout elements in HTML tend to be a bit more squirrelly to use than table elements (and I did attempt using divs at first, but the result was so poor it didn't make it past the edit preview phase). Taking advantage of easy-to-use elements in creative ways is ''not'' bad, in spite of what their original purpose was. And yeah, I know about those gallery tags, and use them often on gallery pages; they still don't look as good as tables do on mainspace pages, and I prefer to keep gallery elements exclusive to dedicated gallery sections and pages whenever possible. A page interrupted by a table is normal; a page interrupted by a gallery just looks ''off''. And yes, that too is subjective, but I'm not saying it should be disallowed completely. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:49, July 27, 2024 (EDT)
::::I'm going to have to question your claim that "web design is my primary occupational skill". Do you know CSS or not? To be frank and honest, your replies to LTQ's comment is not lending credence to your claims. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:20, July 27, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Yes, I do (and have many examples on the very computer I am using made in Visual Studio; if you need proof, I can DM you a github link), but some CSS functions do not work within HTML tags (even within the 'style="..."' portions, which if you look at my edits you will see I use extensively), and for wiki pages, the only way to use these remaining ones are through pages such as "[wikiname].common.css," which are rather outside the scope of what a non-sysop should be editing. I can't just put a <nowiki><style> or <script></nowiki> section on an ordinary wiki page, it won't do anything. Granted, .CSS pages can be made for template-specific ones, but I generally prefer to save making a new template for extreme cases as I do not like their overuse since they become too rigid in how they format things (and become highly difficult to preview changes on when there are multiple together). Now, I have had Porple's help in implementing certain CSS functions that require that (such as the rotating item icon for Petey and King Boo on the Double Dash page), but in general I prefer to limit myself to what tools can be done without deep changes to the wiki's functionality. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:32, July 27, 2024 (EDT)


I've noticed people bringing up "consistency with MK7 and MK8 pages" as a reason to revert, which I find rather baffling - I've been doing these in release order, so I ''hadn't gotten to them yet''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:16, July 26, 2024 (EDT)
I've noticed people bringing up "consistency with MK7 and MK8 pages" as a reason to revert, which I find rather baffling - I've been doing these in release order, so I ''hadn't gotten to them yet''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:16, July 26, 2024 (EDT)
:First, I for the life of me cannot find who even ''mentioned'' Mario Kart 7 in this conversation at all but you, and definitely not in regards of consistency (in fact, my vote is the only one which mentions the old tables match that of MK8 and MK8D). Second, you doing these in release order and thus having applied this style on more games than not, doesn't necessarily mean the argument is invalid. The point is that ''most people liked the old style better'', and your style had been applied ''only by yourself'' without much discussion, if any. If people don't like the new style only you have a (large) hand in, it doesn't exactly matter whether your style is the more consistent one. That's like if I alone were redesigning the tables in all the ''Mario Party'' games by release order, and by the time I got to ''Mario Party 10'', someone told me that they liked the old tables better and likened the old style to those in ''Mario Party Superstars'', and I'd say "Yeah but ''my'' tables are the more consistent one now, and I'm doing them in release order, so it doesn't matter if they should be more consistent with the ''Mario Party Superstars'' ones since I haven't gotten to that one yet". The reason why people are only now saying something about it is that your course tables on Mario Kart Wii are by far the most egregious example, and it looked actually kinda alright on the prior Mario Kart pages (even if they still include some unnecessary things like internal filenames and course BGM, and there wasn't necessarily anything wrong with the old tables there either - hello ''[[Mario Kart DS#Courses|Mario K]][[Special:Diff/4253367#Courses|art DS]]''). {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:51, July 27, 2024 (EDT)
::Well, on this page, I think they were brought up on other ones, and I mostly remembered people saying "later ones" (which would include it) and "Mario Kart [number]." And to be fair, I fixed the glaring issues brought by MKW's widescreen screenshots to this style by removing them, and also removed the internal names for it; look at the "retro" section on the page now, it looks a lot better than it did when this proposal was initially made. MKDS's main issue, admittedly, was the battle courses being in a different section entirely; to the point that at first, I thought they were outright missing from the page, their location was so counter-intuitive. And I will metaphorically die on the hill that while the BGM may not be "necessary," it does not hurt anything but ''does'' add more to it, so it's better there than not there by sheer measure of enrichment. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:01, July 27, 2024 (EDT)
:::You still haven't addressed my comment about requiring to include sound effects in item sections, voice files into character sections, vehicle engine sounds in vehicle sections, which are all as equally important, adds more to the article, and as enriching as BGM. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 03:20, July 29, 2024 (EDT)
::::We don't -have- files for most of those, and sound effects are different from music - mainly because they almost always have more than one per entity. That being said, I'd have no problem with including the select character voice clip, or the engine noises (note that I did include the character-based unqiue victory themes on the SMK character table); most of the items don't really have a distinct audial cue (let alone in a consistent context), though. And apologies for not answering this one sooner, I legitimately did not see it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:53, July 29, 2024 (EDT)

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