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| == True name, again == | | == True name, again == |
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| Why is the name Moneybag not used again as the page title, seeing as it comes from a Nintendo-created page about Mario 64? The Moneybags and Money Bags plural names come from the NSMB Player's Guide which, as stated above, is already "rife with mistakes" anyway, and the SM64 Player's Guide, respectively. I believe by normal means the Nintendo JP website should take presedence over a guidebook. I would have made this change myself but seeing as this was an agreed-upon decision before I figured it was appropriate to put on here. ~ [[User:Qyzxf|Qyzxf]] ([[User talk:Qyzxf|talk]]) 22:45, September 25, 2023 (EDT) | | Why is the name Moneybag not used again as the page title, seeing as it comes from a Nintendo-created page about Mario 64? The Moneybags and Money Bags plural names come from the NSMB Player's Guide which, as stated above, is already "rife with mistakes" anyway, and the SM64 Player's Guide, respectively. I believe by normal means the Nintendo JP website should take presedence over a guidebook. I would have made this change myself but seeing as this was an agreed-upon decision before I figured it was appropriate to put on here. ~ [[User:Qyzxf|Qyzxf]] ([[User talk:Qyzxf|talk]]) 22:45, September 25, 2023 (EDT) |
| :What it comes down to mainly is that they haven't appeared in a new game and the wiki generally makes it a point to use the names as they evolved over time, and since the site takes an entirely different approach where they retroactively use the modern names (which I guess works for their purposes), we get to keep the 'pluralized' form they had officially for over twenty years straight (and it doesn't help that the 'singular' started off being [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia#List of English translation mistakes and names from the Super Mario Wiki|unofficial]]). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:20, September 25, 2023 (EDT) | | :What it comes down to mainly is that they haven't appeared in a new game and the wiki generally makes it a point to use the names as they evolved over time, and since the site takes an entirely different approach where they retroactively use the modern names (which I guess works for their purposes), we get to keep the 'pluralized' form they had officially for over twenty years straight (and it doesn't help that the 'singular' started off being [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia#List of English translation mistakes and names from the Super Mario Wiki|unofficial]]). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:20, September 25, 2023 (EDT) |
| ::But it's also a rule to use the current name as the title regardless ([[Nipper Dandelion]], [[Propeller Piranha]], etc.), and honestly I think it's entirely plausible that Nintendo just decided to change the name to the more logical singular version independently from the wiki. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:29, November 17, 2023 (EST) | | ::But it's also a rule to use the current name as the title regardless ([[Nipper Dandelion]], [[Propeller Piranha]], etc.), and honestly I think it's entirely plausible that Nintendo just decided to change the name to the more logical singular version independently from the wiki. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:29, November 17, 2023 (EST) |
| :::In general cases (not all, but often), if a more recent name comes from a lower priority source, the older name still stays as the title; otherwise we'd have, say, moved Banzai Bill to Bomber Bill. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:20, November 17, 2023 (EST)
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| ::::Portal also had its own collection of outright typos; for example, the SM64 page repeatedly misspells Piranha Plant as Piranha ''Plan''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:24, November 17, 2023 (EST)
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| :::::I don't see much of a reason to assume this is also a typo. Piranha Plant (and also Banzai Bill) have ''plenty'' of games confirming their names, while this only seems to have been named in two guides that already disagree on how to spell it. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 21:14, November 17, 2023 (EST)
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| ==Move to Moneybag (enemy)==
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| {{Settled TPP}}
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| {{Proposal outcome|passed|4-3|move}}
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| So there's only three sources cited for the name of this enemy, and all of them disagree with each other in some way: a Super Mario 64 guide calling it "Money Bags", a New Super Mario Bros. guide (which is "rife with mistakes", according to Doc a couple sections above) calling it "Moneybags", and much more recently, Mario Portal calling it "Moneybag", without the s. It's true that we haven't moved every enemy to its Mario Portal name, but as far as I can tell, the ones we haven't are ones whose names have been confirmed in a bunch of games up to recently (e.g. [[Banzai Bill]], [[Parabomb]]). It seems like the only reason this page hasn't been moved yet is because the singular Moneybag name first appeared in Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, but I don't think that's a very good reason not to move it - it didn't stop [[Fireball Boy]], [[Whimp]], or [[Mega Grrrol]] from using names that also appeared in Encyclopedia and then Mario Portal. And honestly, I think it's entirely possible for them to have come up with the name "Moneybag" independently of the wiki, seeing as it's just a much more logical name than "Moneybags".
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Hewer}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': <s>May 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to May 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT
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| ===Support===
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.
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| #{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal. Moreover, per [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable_sources_for_naming|naming policy]], a name from an official Nintendo-hosted website has higher priority over any physical guide source.
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| #{{User|Cadrega86}} per Hewer's comment.
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| #{{User|Dark-Boy-1up}} Per Hewer's comment.
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| ===Oppose===
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| #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: We have two strategy guides saying Moneybags and official sources disagreeing with each other is nothing new. Just check out Gnawties from Donkey Kong 64 which were only called that in the manual whereas literally everything else calls them beavers.
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} My position is admittedly weaker with the naming policy adjustment, but the fact remains: it's not a source contemporary with the original release of the game (or any releases, for that matter), so it breaks the wiki's spirit of generally keeping the legacy names as they were used at the time, and there is still no new game with the new spelling. (Honestly, I might suggest to rethink tiers 2 and 3 with either a swap or a merge.) As for judging our sources based on mistakes, I'd say that the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' Player's Guide is arguably the ''least'' mistake-ridden; sure, the "Sumo" Sledge Bro raises eyebrows, but I think there was probably just internal miscommunication due to Sledge Bro's Japanese name also changing, and it lasted as late as the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' Prima guide.
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| #{{User|DrippingYellow}} Given how mistake-prone the Mario Portal is (like recently "correcting" [[Bunbun]] to Boom Boom, calling the [[Winged Strollin' Stu]] "[[Swipin' Stu]] (blue)" despite it not doing much Swipin' (a result of the enemies having the same Japanese name), even the small and big Fire Piranha ''Plan''s also in the SM64 section), this could very easily be a typo for all we know.
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| ===Comments===
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| As LinkTheLefty pointed out above: In general cases (not all, but often), if a more recent name comes from a lower priority source, the older name still stays as the title; otherwise we'd have, say, moved Banzai Bill to Bomber Bill. And as Doc pointed out, the portal has a lot of naming errors anyways. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:54, April 30, 2024 (EDT)
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| :As I said in my vote, per [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable_sources_for_naming|naming policy]], a name from the Mario Portal has higher priority over physical guides. This is not comparable to the "Banzai Bill"/"Bomber Bill" situation because the name "Banzai Bill" has been used in games (which means it is a higher-priority name than the name "Bomber Bill" which has yet to appear in a Mario game) whereas the name "Moneybags" has never appeared in any game to begin with. Besides, official guides make a lot of naming errors as well. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 09:09, April 30, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::<s>I concur with official guides making naming errors as well; I'm still under the impression that the "Swoopin' Stu" name was misplaced to [[Gooble]] and was supposed to be for the [[Winged Strollin' Stu]], as well as that "[[Snifit (Super Mario 64)|Snufit]]" and "Sniffit" may be typos.</s> {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:29, April 30, 2024 (EDT)
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| :LinkTheLefty's argument above is outdated, as the naming policy was updated in January to prioritise official websites over guides. Of our three sources for this enemy's name, Portal wins both recency and source priority, so why shouldn't we use it? This is nothing like Banzai Bill using that name in a ton of games for years - our only source for "Moneybags" is one old, "rife with mistakes" book. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:24, April 30, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::No more rife with mistakes than portal, which has just as many blatant misspellings per available word as the guide does. The singularization this time is a potential mistake; "moneybags" is essentially slang for a rich person, like the Spyro character and how the Monopoly guy is named Uncle Pennybags. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:36, April 30, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::In that case, Portal should take priority per naming policy. This is a case where I feel like there's no way of knowing if it was truly a "mistake" or not, since both of the names make sense, and I'd rather just go with the much more recent and higher priority name than pick favourites. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:53, April 30, 2024 (EDT)
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| @LinkTheLefty: We keep legacy names to reflect how they were used at the time, but use the most recent names for article titles to reflect how they're used now. This is always how the wiki's naming policy has worked, even in cases where the subject's only actual appearance(s) used a different name, e.g. [[Propeller Piranha]], [[Nipper Dandelion]], [[Proto Piranha]], [[Pipe Fist]], [[Ghost Vase]], etc. And Mario Portal has not been an exception to that otherwise (again, [[Whimp]], [[Fireball Boy]]), nor should it be per the naming policy. So I feel like there's no valid reason to ignore Portal in this case when we have only one older, lower-priority source for the current name. It just feels like ignoring the naming policy and arbitrarily picking the source we prefer, which is never good. Mistakes in Portal shouldn't really be a factor here in my opinion since we have no good reason to assume that this particular name is a mistake, just because it doesn't match exactly the name from an old guide. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:11, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
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| :There is, at present, more of a reason to move Bomber Bill and Parachute Bob-omb (at least appearing in other products), but we've generally agreed to hold off and see what the next game appearance goes with. This change to the naming policy is very recent and, I think, under-discussed. Yes, I agree with moving online content up due to print media falling by the wayside, but placing it higher than guides puts it at odds with legacy material. Example here: ''Super Mario 64'' had an official Nintendo Power website with names like Swimming Beast and Big Bird, but the game's own Nintendo Power print guide used Dorrie and Klepto, which are the names that get prioritized. So under this new paradigm, do we use Swimming Beast and Big Bird since that was from online media at the time? Probably an argument to make for a broader discussion, but the point stands that there are are dozens of instances where print and online media don't fully line up, even with Mario Portal and enemies previously named in guides (Sleepy Boo, Wind Spirit, etc.). Which is another thing - common-sense source priority exceptions exist, and have been done for stuff like the ''Super Mario Sunshine'' and ''Yoshi's Island DS'' Nintendo Power and Prima guides. Changing this name requires adding an identifier, which is one of the reasons those source priority exceptions were made. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:59, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I already addressed Bomber Bill and Parachute Bob-omb, but to to reiterate, those cases are many games including recent ones vs. Mario Portal, whereas this case is the New Super Mario Bros. Player's Guide from 2006 vs. Mario Portal, so it's not comparable, and Moneybags is currently an outlier among Fireball Boy and friends. I feel like the Swimming Beast and Big Bird case is too antiquated to be relevant, but even if we did go with those names for Mario 64, they've been called Klepto and Dorrie since, so it'd be another Bomber Bill case (minus the "wait and see if it becomes a permanent name" element). Even if websites aren't infallible, neither are guides, so I don't see a problem with the current naming policy. And I think it's quite a stretch to call an exception here "common sense" - even if "Moneybags" technically makes sense as the name, I'd be more inclined to call "Moneybag" the more logical name. Better to settle the disagreement by going with the more recent and high-priority source rather than what we like more, that's what the naming policy's for. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:02, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::I'm a little confused. What Fireball Boy, Whimp, and Mega Grrrol have in common is that they don't have any known English name from a previous accepted non-foreign source, unlike this one. (And we still go by contemporary source priority from what I can tell, e.g.Bloober/Blooper, just that [[Talk:Nipper Dandelion|the Nipper Dandelion kerfuffle]] set a precedent.) What is this proposal aiming at? If it's to classify Moneybags as a mistake, I strongly disagree since the original spaced spelling was also pluralized, and as Doc points out, it's from slang. If it's just to follow the (very new) policy tier, then...well, what exactly makes this different from the likes of Big Boo (''Super Mario Sunshine''), Cyclo, Fire Cheep Cheep, Rocky Wrench (''Super Mario Galaxy''), etc.? Why not use stuff like Mega Goomba, Mega Koopa Troopa, Mega Piranha Plant, and Mega Cheep Cheep for ''Super Mario Bros. 3''? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:30, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::The goal isn't to classify Moneybags as a mistake, just to de-classify Moneybag as a mistake because it could very easily not be one. I generally don't like assuming something's a mistake if there's a reasonable possibility it isn't. I realise that might mean having an article called "Moneybag" while its actual appearances use "Money Bags" and "Moneybags", but I don't see much of an issue there, I've already brought up similar cases like [[Proto Piranha]]. And for those other cases you mention, maybe, but I'm focusing now on how this particular name ignoring feels anomalous. There are other cases of Mario Portal taking precedence over other English names like [[Snifit (Super Mario 64)]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:57, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
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| @DrippingYellow: Once again, it could be a typo or it could not be, since it makes sense either way. So why assume it is one? Innocent until proven guilty, right? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:57, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Again, I direct you to the numerous spelling errors (you are ''not'' about to try and convince me that they could've for all we know intended to call Big Piranha Plants "Big Piranha Plans" in ''SM64'' only, they literally spelt it correctly for normal Piranha Plants!), the unfitting usage of all-lowercase names in the ''[[Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins|Super Mario Land 2]]''... English is very clearly not the first language of the person who translated the Japanese website. That, or they're just incompetent at their job. Either way, we have good reason to not be immediately assuming the Mario Portal name is a more "official" name in matters of a single-letter difference. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 14:33, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Except that, again, it's higher priority in the naming policy, "Moneybag" is much less obviously mistaken than "Piranha Plan", "Moneybags" is attested by a single guide versus dozens of sources for "Piranha Plant", and Mario Portal's had us rename a good number of enemies already. Moneybag isn't even the only enemy given a name in the SM64 section of Mario Portal that differs by a single letter compared to an old guide name, but [[Snifit (Super Mario 64)]] already got renamed accordingly. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:55, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::"Money Bags" with an "S" is corroborated by at least ''two'' guides (I've noticed the DS Pocket Guide has yet to be brought up here, was Moneybag(s) mentioned by name in there?), regardless of parsing differences. And I actually disagree with the core reasoning behind the Snufit/Snifit move: they failed to consider that the Japanese name in ''Mario 64'' is the same as normal Snifits, and the Portal is known to mislabel entities that happen to have the same name in Japanese but not in English (once again, [[Bunbun]]).
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| :::To be clear, I was never trying to suggest that Mario Portal should be completely docked in priority as a source entirely ([[Wind Spirit|Cyclo]], [[Bone Twister]], [[Ground Urchin]], [[Zap Nozzle]] are perfectly fine names that we don't really have any reason to doubt). But when it's a single-letter difference that happens to be on the ''exact page'' where the website translators made it very apparent they couldn't spot a typo even if it sprouted from the ground and nipped them in the face (the website might've been updated, but Piranha Plan is still there after 2 years), I hope you can understand why I'm very reluctant to move the entire page over it.
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| :::If it was named something completely different like "Oingy Sproingy Coin Purse", then I might be OK with moving it there. If the spelling was carried over to the NSMB section of Mario Portal, then I might relent knowing it is consistent, but as it happens, NSMB is the ''only'' Mario platforming game to not have comprehensive coverage like the others for whatever reason. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 00:56, May 12, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::I think in this case, when we don't know whether it's a mistake, we should treat it as not a mistake rather than speculatively assume it is, for consistency with other Mario Portal names being used and its priority on the naming policy. I feel there aren't sufficient grounds for us to ignore an official source (and quite a high priority one at that) if we aren't sure it's mistaken and it could well not be. And "Money Bags" and "Moneybags" are different names in my book, the constant inconsistency in this thing's name throughout the few sources that name it is a major reason why I think we should just go with the most recent, higher-priority one rather than picking a favourite. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:26, May 12, 2024 (EDT)
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