Editing Talk:Shadoo

{{no forum talk}}
==Catch Cards==
Why does one of the catch cards seems to be separate from the others? {{User:Mr. Guy/sig|RAWR}}

==Shadoo's form==
I recently played this game and went through the whole flopside pit, and it is heavily implied that the thing you fight is not directly Shadoo. Let me explain (I put them is separate paragraphs to spread them out a bit): 

Firstly, completing the pit the first time puts you in a conversation with this Shadoo, and some point during the speech, a wierd blink happens accompanied by the sound of a camera shutter, or a mechanical eye in some sci fi films, which isn't really taken note of at all, and when I saw this I thought that maybe Shadoo is a type of computer that copies creature data and attempts to copy and possibly even attempt to replace those creatures, this could explain why the pit is filled with just dark forms of many enemies , in the same way there were dark forms of the four heroes. The part about possibly replacing them is suggested when Shadoo mentions its plan (to basically replace the heroes) and that it could additionally have the plan to replace everything.

Secondly, after completing the pit a second time, it announces that 'your clones are ready' (or complete) suggesting not only that the dark forms of these would be around at the same time (notice the s in clones) and that the clones were simply created by this thing but also that the procedure must have taken some time for it to mention that they are 'complete'.  The term clones also makes sense, because for Shadoo’s plan to work, it would help if he had a clone for each hero to exist at the same time, otherwise it would seem weird that only one hero makes an appearance at a time. Another thing about this is that because Shadoo requested you to do the Pit a second time, it could be Shadoo knew that they were the heroes, but wished them to do the pit again so it could copy your move set, through observation of your efforts in the pit, which might also show why it said your clones are ready the second time as opposed to simply attacking you the first time. I thought that after the battle how much Shadoo reminds me of malfunctioning computers, that go against its original programming, and that I thought that it could have been a referenc e to HAL 9000 (from 2001: a space odyssey).

Thirdly, the creature evidently talks in a computerised voice judging by the speech bubble and indeed the speech it gives itself, which only mechanical things can (such as Tiptron, Fracktail and Wracktail). Pixls, in the way this thing is implied to be the old Pixl queen, do not have the same speech bubbles. 

Finally, none of the cards of dark creatures say that the Dark characters (especially the heroes), are Shadoo, in fact the only reference to Shadoo being anything is when the thing introduces itself, also of note is that when the clone of Mr L appears, notice that the bubble disappears and is replaced by the one that the clone is talking with, suggesting it moved its voice into the clone (although that could also have happened for the simple reason that something was happening and that commentary would be completely unnecessary) BUT it also seemed unusual for the Mr L clone to speak in such an odd way, which was different to how Shadoo spoke before the clone appeared, which might support the clone and Shadoo as two separate entities. The part about Luigi speaking might actually simply be a reference to how Luigi Speaks a lot in the Paper Mario series as opposed to Mario, the silent protagonist, by having his clone speak.

Right I think I just about covered everything I thought up. [[User:DarkNintendo|DarkNintendo]] 23:34, 8 November 2008 (EST)

You could probably incorporate that data into the article. {{User:Knife/sig}} 17:13, 9 November 2008 (EST)

Well, I would but I am awaiting a criticism, just in case someone has something they wish to add that supports the clones as Shadoo and not as simple enemies created by Shadoo. Otherwise, it would look like a rather drastic piece of speculation that could mess up the whole article, I would possibly need approval from many more people, before it could be allowed to be mentioned. I might, at the very least, try to neutalise the article, which does not necessarily support either possibility, and goes with what is knowable JUST through playing the game. [[User:DarkNintendo|DarkNintendo]] 19:04, 9 November 2008 (EST)

== Speculation ==

Everything, and I mean '''everything''' written above is just speculation and nothing more. As such, it has no place in this article. Not even in the Trivia section, which is overly long as it is. We base information on what we can explicitly see from the games. Anything else should be left up to the player/reader. {{User:Phoenix Rider/sig}}

: If this is about what I wrote above, I have taken that into account and not rewrote the article to explicitly say what I think but I neutralised the article saying what can only be judged from the game. For example, all of the cards of the heroes is the names Dark Mario, Dark Luigi, Dark Peach and Dark Bowser, and their descriptions have no referal to Shadoo. In fact, what I wrote above is entirely based on what can be garnered from the game, at least the conlusion is anyway. Shadoo never mentions being the dark forms, but does talk about the dark forms in a way that makes them seem as separate entities from Shadoo itself. So really, you have made a contradiction in that thinking Shadoo to be the Dark forms of the heroes are more speculative than assuming them to be separate entities, especially when taking in to account every bit of information regarding them. In fact I would say that, if I had not read this article before actually attempting and completing the pit (twice) I would never have thought of Shadoo being the Dark heroes forms without thinking speculative thoughts, which this artice was once almost completely filled, so far to rename all of the cards with 'Dark [name] (Shadoo)' in the names rather then leave their names as being 'Dark [Name]' which their cards call them. 

However if you weren't talking about my backed up theory, I would suggest replying to the topic rather then make a new one that ironicly leaves its purpose up for speculation. Otherwise it could lead to this very reply in the future, which can get confusing. [[User:DarkNintendo|DarkNintendo]] 23:18, 2 January 2009 (EST)

We know. It's just good to discuss theories and let people say what they think. [[User:Master Hand|Aluigi,]] [[User talk:Master Hand|The Luigi Legend!]] [[Special:Contributions/Master Hand|Whut Stuff?]] 14:54, 5 December 2008 (EST)

:Well, that's all fine and good, but that is what the forums are for. Let's keep the talk pages for improving articles on the Wiki. {{User:Phoenix Rider/sig}}

==Spanish Name==

Well, I have something to say. I have a Spanish guide of Super Paper Mario, and it says that Shadoo's name is "'''Umbrius'''", not "Soombra". {{User:Paper Yoshi/sig}} 13:53, 14 January 2009 (EST)

== Waste of space ==

How do we put Dark Peach's Catch Card next to Dark Bowser's one? Dark Peach's card seems to be underneath the others, and it's a waste of space. So does anyone know? {{user:Mario jc/sig}}

== Separate Pages per Dark guy ==

I think we should make separate articles for each form of Shadoo, according to [[PipeProject:Paper Mario Enemies|this PipeProject]].

{{User:SKmarioman/sig}}

:Personally, I don't think they should be separated. Dark Bowser, Luigi, Mario, and Peach are different forms of the same Shadoo, and those will just be four more stubs to deal with. Maybe if Shadoo makes an appearance in another game someday. {{User:Mpeng/Sig}}
what species is shadoo!?!?!?! [[User:Mariopatrick1234|Mariopatrick1234]] 22:29, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
What Species is shadoo!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!???!!!!???!?!? [[User:Awkpaterick|Awkpaterick]] 19:31, 6 August 2011 (EDT)

Actually, the pages would be Dark Bowser, Dark Mario, Dark Peach and Dark ''Mr.L'', because if you look closely, you can see Mr.L's handkercheif (or bib) tied at the back.{{User:M&L'[[User:M&amp;L|M&amp;L Baby_mario.gif]] 21:05, 10 January 2012 (EST)'}}

@SKmarioman: You can try a talk page proposal if you want to split each form. {{User:Tails777/sig}}

== Sprites ==

I have sprites of all four clones. Would those be useful? I was thinking we could put them all in the infobox. It would be better than just showing Dark Luigi (I know that's his entrance, but still...). We could also use them instead of the [[Catch Card]]s and in the [[Super Paper Mario bestiary|bestiary]].<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 11:36, 16 November 2016 (EST)
:[[File:Shadoo sprites.png|thumb|left|150px]]
:Here's all four sprites. This is the image I believe should be used in the character infobox.
:{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 15:43, 16 November 2016 (EST)
::The character infobox should be the only place this image should be. If all users, who have the current image in the infobox on there article and can answer this as soon as possible after being contacted, say it is ok, it can be deleted then this image moved to its place. If they say it is not ok, then this just replaces the image in the infobox and the users who wanted to put this new image in their userpage can. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 16:13, 16 November 2016 (EST)
:::I was thinking I would move this into the infobox, move the current image somewhere else on the page with the caption "Shadoo's entrance as Dark Luigi", upload the individual sprites and put those in the enemy boxes and in the bestiary, and any users who see this image and want it on their userpage can swap it out. Sound good?
:::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 16:19, 16 November 2016 (EST)
::::Now it makes more sense. Sounds good. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 16:21, 16 November 2016 (EST)
:::::Done.
:::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 16:41, 16 November 2016 (EST)
::::::The old image doesn't need to be on the article due to File:SPM Confront Shadoo.png. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 16:43, 16 November 2016 (EST)
:::::::Oh, I see. Well, any active users who see that they now have a broken file link on their page will fix it. If you're uncomfortable deleting the image without notifying anyone, see if any active users are using the image and tell them.
:::::::{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 17:09, 16 November 2016 (EST)
::::::::There are 19 users who have the image on there userpage. Here is the list
*User:7feetunder
*User:Baby Mario Bloops
*User:Commander Code-8
*User:Daris98
*User:General bob-omb
*User:Koopas lost shell
*User:LuigiFan
*User:MapleTree46
*User:MarioLOA
*User:Pyro
*User:Rise Up Above It
*User:RotMS
*User:SKmarioman
*User:Super Metal Mario
*User:Supermariosuperfan
*User:Tails777
*User:The RPG Gamer
*User:Zaimoon
*User:Zero777
::::::::Some are active. Others are not. Due to how often they come to this wiki, only the active ones and those that come can decide whether or not to have the old image. Until a decision has been made, don't delete it. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 17:22, 16 November 2016 (EST)

== Screenshots ==

We only have a screenshot of Dark Luigi's entrance. Could someone upload screenshots of the other clones, preferably using their abilities? I could do it, but they won't be high quality.<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 19:20, 16 November 2016 (EST)

== Sprites or Cards ==

Once again, we have sprites of a boss, yet think we need to use the catch cards, when there's really no reason to. The catch cards are the same as the sprites, just with that distracting background. I see no reason to use Catch Cards and not sprites. The cards can still be viewed at [[List of Catch Cards]]. The same thing has happened at [[Count Bleck]], so this is for that article too. Can I get an opinion on this?<br>
P.S. The clones are out of order. They are fought in reverse of the order the characters are unlocked, e.g., Dark Luigi, Dark Bowser, Dark Peach, Dark Mario. Right now they are order Dark Peach, Dark Luigi, Dark Mario, Dark Bowser.<br>
{{User:Ultimate Mr. L/sig}} 11:11, 17 November 2016 (EST)

==On the "identity" section==

<nowiki></nowiki>"''Shadoo's true identity and backstory are never revealed; however, it bears some resemblance to the Pixl Queen discussed by Carson. The Pixl Queen was created by an Ancient, and after developing a grudge against her people due to how they used the Pixls, she attempted to overthrow the Ancients by taking control of the Pixls[1], similar to how Shadoo hated the Ancients and wished to use the Heroes' Pixl companions to exact its revenge. The Pixl Queen was also said to have "powers of illusion", which she used to hide from sight[2], just as Shadoo hid itself, a Warp Pipe, and the clones. Furthermore, the details of the Pixl Queen's fate is not revealed, with Carson only stating that she was "defeated", with the Dark Prognosticus being "taken from her" after her defeat[3], suggesting she survived the battle (unlike the Pixl that helped defeat her)[4]. Additionally, his speech bubble resembles the computer-type bubble used by characters like Tiptron, Fracktail, and Wracktail, implying he is mechanical. Shadoo's real self is unknown.''"

This section was removed on the ground of "being nothing but just a bunch of speculation". I think this was a bad decision that shows a lack of critical thinking. To quote our very own [[MarioWiki: Good Writing]] page:

"''That being said, analysis and dissection are not inherently bad if they're kept to a minimum. There are admittedly some things included in the Mario series that are left somewhat ambiguous (i.e. '''the various character backstories hinted at in Super Paper Mario'''), and it is better to have something rather than nothing about these aspects. But keep in mind that the interpretations must be straightforward and logical, backed up with solid references (i.e. the original quotes from the games or related material), and explicitly stated to be "implied" or "hinted at" (etc.), rather than passed off as solid fact. ''"

Of course fan speculation based on nothing but coincidental similarities should be removed, but this isn't that. The section point out objective similarities between two characters who appear in the same game, is backed by quotes from the game that it provides in the references and it doesn't try to pass itself as The Truth: it even ends with the statement "Shadoo's real self is unknown". If anything, the section is ''examplary'' for showing how quote-unquote speculative content should be handled.

Not everything the wiki covers can be "confirmed". Creator lies, forget, and good storytellers leaving thing deliberatly ambiguous. In that respect, if a game hints at a plot thread, it's better to have ''something'' than nothing as long straightforward and provide evidences, and removing that content because "it's not confirmed" makes for a poorer website. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 09:59, 6 January 2017 (EST)

==Appearance==
We need an image of Shadoo's eye.
--[[User:Jann75|Jann75]] ([[User talk:Jann75|talk]]) 23:28, 3 July 2017 (EDT)

== Shadoo (general) ==

We need to get to the end of this.
Shadoo is, for what we know, an eye, we don’t know if he has a body or not, but what I know is that he can turn 3D. I’m serious, because how could he go to the foreground, if the world is 2D? Shadoo’s eye is black, monochromatic like the rest of the pit. I can relate him to Dimentio, as he creates a clone of Mr. L instead of Luigi, for some reason. This “reason” could be Dimentio. Dimentio is defeated, yes, but what if he revived himself? He is the master of dimensions, so who couldn’t say that ANOTHER Dimentio from ANOTHER dimension revives him?
I will get to the end of the mystery.
If someone’s with me, but your username in a reply.
We will solve Mario’s biggest mystery. [[User:ZKhay0|ZKhay0]] ([[User talk:ZKhay0|talk]]) 13:40, May 22, 2020 (EDT)
:It's probably just for the sake of not spoiling that Luigi becomes an ally. {{User:PinkYoshiFan/sig}} 13:46, May 22, 2020 (EDT)
::That can't be it, because the Tattle specifically calls him Dark Luigi. If anything, going to the Pit before unlocking Luigi is arguably an even bigger spoiler since it confirms Mr. L is Luigi, even though that was fairly obvious. Anyway, there's no mystery to be solved here. We don't know why they used the Mr. L sprite instead of Luigi as it's never explained why, and there's nothing official to suggest he's affiliated with Dimentio in some way. You can come up with all the fan theories and headcanons you want, but unless Nintendo officially comes out with more information on Shadoo, we can't include it on this article. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:51, May 22, 2020 (EDT)