View source for Talk:Sky-High Sundae

== Mario Kart Tour ==

a lot of people, im assuming, didnt notice this so im putting it here for others to see. at 28 seconds, bottom left corner, it confirms its coming to tour https://youtu.be/xBly7QHQkYA - [[User:RSM|RSM]] 09:55, July 28, 2022 (EDT)

== New track or Tour track? ==

I am very curious as to what Sky-High Sundae is supposed to be considered as. Now yes, it's Mario Kart debut is 8 Deluxe, and the website does not give it a prefix, but the first trailer for the Booster Course Pass states that it contains 48 remastered courses from previous Mario Kart games, including Mario Kart Tour. That said, in the Wave 2 trailer, it states that Sky-High Sundae will be added to Tour in the future, but it does not say that for GBA Snow Land, despite it also not being in Tour. There's also the issue of Ninja Hideaway not having a prefix despite being a Tour track, so maybe the same is still applicable here, where both courses were created for Tour but don't have the prefix because they're not based on a city. When this course comes to Tour, I doubt its gonna be labeled as coming from 8 Deluxe, meaning that its original creation was intended for Tour. But that's just what I'm thinking. Thoughts? [[User:Prpro&#61;03|PrPro03]] ([[User talk:Prpro&#61;03|talk]]) 15:05, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
:I say if it debuts in ''8DX'', it's an ''8DX'' track. We can't be sure if the track will be given an ''8DX'' label when it shows up in ''Tour'' until it happens, but that won't change the course's actual debut.  {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 15:46, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
:Even if it isn't listed as <small>Switch</small> Sky-High Sundae or something to that effect once it's added to Tour, I don't think that would really prove anything. Ninja Hideaway is solidly a Tour track, but it doesn't have a prefix in 8DX. Unless they change that in the update, but at that point we're working off of what we ''think'' will happen instead of actual sources, which isn't the right move for a wiki. In any case, the Mario Wiki's stance on this will really only affect where we put it in the "Mario Kart racecourses" template - and if we're putting {{classic-link|Tour|Paris Promenade}} in there, I think Sky-High Sundae is plenty justified being put there until we get clearer evidence one way or the other.{{unsigned|Ahemtoday}}
::Stretch comparison, but Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude all appeared in ''Fire Emblem Heroes'' before ''Three Houses'' released, but they're all still characters from ''Three Houses''. This really isn't all that different a situation. The DLC is clearly taking from ''Tour'' so there's enough reason to believe this is intended to be a ''Tour'' track. {{User:Tails777/sig}}17:13, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
:::I don't think that comparison is accurate. I'm no expert on the ''Fire Emblem'' series, so correct any errors I make, but AFAIK ''Three Houses'' is a proper "new game" (for lack of a better term) while ''Heroes'' is an ongoing mobile game revolving around obtaining heroes from past installments, making their appearance in that game more comparable to Roy debuting in ''Melee'' before his "proper" game was released than the circumstances surrounding this race course. ''Mario Kart Tour'' itself is an ongoing mobile game continuously receiving updates with mostly courses from previous ''Mario Kart'' games and variants of them, so the "past content crossover vs. fully new installment" contrast isn't present here. Without official confirmation, calling SHS "properly a ''Tour'' track" seems arbitrary to me. Nintendo has shown a lot of inconsistency with ''Tour'', straight up [[GBA Bowser's Castle 1|retitling]] [[GBA Bowser's Castle 2|existing]] [[SNES Koopa Troopa Beach 2|tracks]] for ''no reason at all'' and making Ninja Hideaway the only ''Tour'' track in ''8DX'' so far without a prefix. Therefore, I think we should stick to calling this an ''8DX'' track until we get official confirmation to the contrary. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 18:16, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
::::I still don’t think it’s right to call this an ‘’8 Deluxe’’ track since the Booster Course Pass is still marketed as “48 remastered tracks from past instalments”. I also don’t really think it’s speculation to say it’s intended to be a Tour track, since every track in the two waves is either in Tour, or at least in DS Shroom Ridge and even this course’s case, has an image to prove it will eventually be in the game. GBA Snow Land is the only track without direct proof, so with 15 out of 16 tracks all pointing in the same direction, I feel it’s clear to say this is all Tour based. And Nintendo didn’t say it’s a track originating from MK8D, but did say all 48 tracks were from other instalments, which sounds like proof that this isn’t a MK8D track. {{User:Tails777/sig}} 
:::::I personally think due to the mismatched flat textures and ultra wide roads that can fit the entire Daisy Cruiser on there that it's a Tour track first but idk. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 00:25, July 29, 2022 (EDT)

:::::Nintendo didn’t say it’s a track originating from ''Tour'', either, and what they said about the BCP back in February isn't necessarily gonna hold up several months later. I remember Nintendo saying back when ''7'' was new that they didn't have any plans to patch that notorious Maka Wuhu respawn glitch for online play, then did exactly that shortly afterward anyway. Even if SHS was ''originally conceived'' as a ''Tour'' track, it still showed up in ''8DX'' first. The simultaneous announcement for both games may have even been planned from the start - we certainly don't have proof that it wasn't. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 01:11, July 29, 2022 (EDT)
Since it was '''announced''' for Tour and 8 DX '''simultaneously''', i suppose its a new track for both Tour and 8DX. - [[User:RSM|RSM]] 18:30, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
:Well, we can't put it down in both places on the all-race-courses template, so that doesn't help us. We still have to pick one. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:27, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
::Datamine will tell, if this course is "U" or "mob". So it's better to wait until this track gonna be released. [[User:Piotrek1113|Piotrek1113]] ([[User talk:Piotrek1113|talk]]) 10:23, July 29, 2022 (EDT)
:::Sadly, [https://youtu.be/JthHtyww3r0 I can already confirm that the Booster Course Pass won't help us with its internal names, as they're all placeholder names using the ''c_nsw_nn'' format]. We'll need to wait for the Sundae Tour. [https://mobile.twitter.com/mariokarttourEN/status/1555440969494908930 The in-game name used in ''Mario Kart Tour''] did confirm that it's not to be intended as a classic course introduced in ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'', though.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 05:10, August 5, 2022 (EDT)
::::I still think this track is fully intended to be a ''Tour'' original track that just so happened to make it's debut in ''MK8D'' beforehand. It was on the datamined banner and all those icons used their ''Tour'' appearances. And we're using that datamined banner to even further confirm <small>DS</small> Shroom Ridge for ''Mario Kart Tour''. If we can use that to say <small>DS</small> Shroom Ridge is in ''MKT'', we can use that image to confirm Sky-High Sundae was intended for ''Tour'' first. {{User:Tails777/sig}}23:35, August 5, 2022 (EDT)
:::::The course is here, and considering how it doesn't use U or Switch, the number of Jump Boosts, and the course icon matching the datamined banner image, I think it's pretty safe to say it's a MKT track. 
:::::EDIT: The filename uses mob, so Sky-High Sundae is basically confirmed to be a Mario Kart Tour course. {{User:WildWario/sig}} 02:28, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
::::::[https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Games/Nintendo-Switch-games/Mario-Kart-8-Deluxe-1173281.html#Booster_Course_Pass Tell] [https://mariokart8.nintendo.com/booster-course-pass/ that] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/switch/aabpa/coursepack/index.html to] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBly7QHQkYA Nintendo] [https://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew/mario-kart-8-deluxe-booster-course-pass-wave-2-approaches-the-starting-line-on-aug-4/ then], because for all we know they've been treating Sky-High Sundae as a new course for MK8D instead of a returning course. The "48 Remastered courses" tidbit is moreso an exception instead of the general statement. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 07:00, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
:::::::To be very clear: to treat Sky-High Sundae as a classic course from ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' is '''not''' treating it like Nintendo is treating it. Not a single word from the Sundae Tour suggests that this is a classic course, nor does it have a platform prefix in its name, nor [https://mobile.twitter.com/mariokarttourEN/status/1555433424990511104 did the Twitter account present it as a classic course]. In fact, the Sundae Tour's introduction specifically has this paragraph:
:::::::''Sky-High Sundae will also appear in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe!''
:::::::''The Sky-High Sundae course featured in the Sundae Tour is now also available in the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe game on the Nintendo Switch system as part of the paid Mario Kart 8 Deluxe - Booster Course Pass DLC!''
:::::::''You can enjoy Sky-High Sundae in both Mario Kart Tour and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe!''
:::::::The internal data clearly showed that the original target platform of the course were mobile devices, as it was even put in the ''new'' and not in the ''classic'' folder, but the course was released as a completely new course in both ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' and ''Mario Kart Tour''. Which makes sense, as it was originally developed for ''Mario Kart Tour'', but its ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' version was released earlier (and the paragraph title of the Sundae Tour suggests this was a late decision, with the original plan being that of the course being first released in ''Mario Kart Tour'', which also explains why the Booster Course Pass originally promised only remastered courses).--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:39, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
:::::::As I stated in the "Merge city course and Kalimari Desert layouts" proposal, this would probably need a proposal in order to settle what game Sky-High Sundae is to be treated from. There's enough evidence pointing it to be a ''Tour'' course, but with Nintendo treating it as a brand new course for the Booster Course Pass (in spite of previous statements that all 48 tracks are remastered from previous entries) certainly makes this a rather unique and unprecedented case. However, with Ninja Hideaway having no prefix either (and thanks to datamining, we know neither will Merry Mountain), there's also a possibility that Nintendo might pull this kind of stunt again in future waves. [[User:Arend|Arend]] ([[User talk:Arend|talk]]) 07:22, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
::::::::I don't know when this track will release in Mario Kart Tour, but honestly I feel this discussion should hold off a bit until then when we know how exactly it will be treated. I also don't think a proposal should be started until then. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 07:33, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
:::::::::The course is out in Tour ''today''. And it's apparently being treated as a new course in ''Mario Kart Tour'' as well, plus its internal name starts with the same kind of prefix as the internal names of other ''Tour'' courses, which is why the discussion is being picked up again, I believe. [[User:Arend|Arend]] ([[User talk:Arend|talk]]) 07:47, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
::::::::::I'm just bumping in. The phone notification about the Sundae Tour says, "''The second part of the Summertime Celebration is here, and we're starting with a tour to cool off in the summertime! The '''new course''' Sky-High Sundae is full of ice cream, and it's here!''". Say it's a new course to both games. Let's just leave out the prefixes for new non-city tracks, including Ninja Hideaway, despite mentioning the ''Tour'' prefix in promotional materal.- {{User:Infinite8/sig}} 08:33, August 10, 2022 (EDT)

==Determining which game did Sky-High Sundae come from==
{{TPP}}
A simple discussion doesn't seem enough, so it's time for a proposal.

Anyways, here are the points for both games:

*'''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''': As per what {{user|Somethingone}} said, Nintendo markets Sky-High Sundae as a '''new course''' for ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''. Additionally, the course debuted earlier in that game compared to ''Mario Kart Tour'', which would make it seem like this is clearly a new course for ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''.

{{multiple image
|align=left
|direction=horizontal
|footer=Comparison of both images
|image1=MK8D-Banner-Leak-SHS.png
|width1=100
|image2=MKT Icon Sky-High Sundae.png
|width2=300
}}
{{br}}

*'''Mario Kart Tour''': But, there are many points that support that it was meant for ''Mario Kart Tour''. First, the [[Media:MK8DX BCP Leak.jpg|datamined banner]]'s image for Sky-High Sundae matches up perfectly with the course icon. (as shown above). Secondly, the course's internal name in MKT is "mob", which is used for MKT's new courses. (Thanks to {{user|Mister Wu}}, we know that MK8DX's internal name does not provide any details). Third, MKT itself also classifies Sky-High Sundae as a '''new course'''.  The introduction for the Sundae Tour uses this sentence: '''Sky-High Sundae will also appear in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe!''' Like what Mister Wu said, this means that Sky-High Sundae was likely supposed to be introduced here first, but there was a change in plan. The course also features a lot of Jump Boosts, and extremely wide roads, which is way more suitable for MKT. This is a speculative though, so you can feel free to disagree with this point.

An explanation for the MK8DX marketing could be that they wouldn't want to confuse players. Sure, we know all about Sky-High Sundae's puzzling situation, but for most regular players, it would be confusing if they marketed a course that first appeared in MK8DX as a MKT course. Also, voting for the do nothing option wouldn't help much either. Most of the information has already been found, so it doesn't seem like we'll get any new information from Nintendo just by waiting for a couple weeks or months.

Anyways, the aim of the proposal is to determine where is Sky-High Sundae is a new course. Though like Mister Wu said, this wouldn't mean we'll classify the other game as having Sky-High Sundae as a classic course. We could just put it in an other section. If there's any important information that I missed or was found later, please notify me in the comment section.

EDIT:Adding new both option per comment section.

'''Proposer''': {{User|WildWario}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 24, 23:59 GMT

===Consider Sky-High Sundae to be a ''Mario Kart Tour'' course===
#{{User|WildWario}} Per all of the points stated.

===Consider Sky-High Sundae to be a ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' course===

===Consider the course to be a new course for both games===
#{{User|WildWario}} Second option.
#{{User|Swallow}} Per Koopa Con Carne's comment
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per all

===Do nothing===

===Comments===
My preference: '''it's both a ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' and a ''Mario Kart Tour'' course'''. It has no prefix in either game, and promotional material (namely horse's-mouth type of information such as the [https://mariokart8.nintendo.com/booster-course-pass/ American] and [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/switch/aabpa/coursepack/index.html Japanese] websites, brought up by {{User|Somethingone}} above) squarely frame it as a new course while framing Ninja Hideaway as a mobile course; if said material doesn't outweigh the game's own stance, it at least competes with it through sheer recurrence. Besides, there was barely a week time between the course's two appearances, which does not really help its case as a "''classic'' course". {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:05, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
:I agree with Koopa Con Carne on this. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 09:11, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
−	
:Fully agreed with this latter position. They had all the rights stating it was a completely new course when it debuted in ''Mario Kart 8  Deluxe'', at the same time they treated it as a new course in ''Mario Kart Tour'' too, which makes sense since it was announced just one day after its Booster Course Pass release and also because of all the hints the internal data as well as the tour paragraph gave us: it has been originally conceived as a ''Mario Kart Tour'' course. While for us the concept of a course that is new in both games gives us headache, all the official information points to Sky-High Sundae being just that. Really, I think the only way to present this course closer to how Nintendo is presenting it is simply presenting as new in both games while explaining what both the official information, the timing of release and the datamined information is telling us about this odd case in this page. If we need to adapt the wiki for that, let's adapt it! So I'd add this option among the choices.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 09:16, August 10, 2022 (EDT)