Editing Talk:Small bird

==Did this need splitting?==
They're obviously intended to be the same thing as the [[Bird (species)|Birds]] from Super Mario World, they even look the same...and they were covered there just fine as well. Howsabout we merge this? {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 16:50, 23 July 2017

We have an article for generic butterflies, despite their differences in behavior. The ones in Super Mario Sunshine don't ''need'' their own page, and neither do the ones in 3D Land.This also got rid of the coverage of other ambient birds in the series, as well as  removing reference to the ones in Mario is Missing, which actually do things. This was unnecessary and somewhat appalling. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 16:54, 23 July 2017
:Well, these birds always have the same appearance in the various games they are featured in, two of which are spin-off titles, not games directly derived from ''Super Mario 3D'' games. I think that this alone makes them notable enough. To further show their importance, [https://youtu.be/ds7HukYR_2g?t=43 these same birds are going to be featured in ''Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle''], a crossover game. Also, the birds of ''Super Mario Sunshine'' are involved in the gameplay, so I don't really see why they don't deserve their own page. <s>If you want to create a page for the other ambient birds, feel free to create it, but</s> in my opinion these little white birds are just too relevant not to deserve their own page.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:56, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
::No, they're not "obviously intended" to be the same thing as the birds from Super Mario World (and I don't even know where you got "they even look the same", they don't have the same color and structure, at best, they're both passerine-like birds, but that's pretty much it). In Super Mario World, the birds have sparrow-like designs and have their colors based on the colored Yoshis. In Super Mario 3D Land, they are white, designed after tists, and have crests and do not draw any parallel to the appearance of the birds on the roof of Super Mario World. And as Mister Wu said, if the ambient animals have a gameplay function, they deserve their own page, and the birds and butterflies in Super Mario Sunshine etc do have a gameplay function different from their real world counterpart and thus deserve a page.

::I've gave this specific bird a page mostly because of its extremely specific design for an ambient object and its gameplay role in Mario Sports Superstars. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 19:02, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
:::To add to this, these birds even have an entry in the objects section of ''Super Mario 3D Land'' in the ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', on page 185:
:::
:::小鳥
:::コースにいてマリオが近づくと飛び立つ。
:::
:::This also gives them an official Japanese name, by the way. Anyway, regardless of whether this last aspect is notable for this wiki or not, their relevance reaching the point of affecting the gameplay of ''Mario Sports Superstars'' already makes them worth a page. Regarding the other birds, after a discussion we had we reached the consensus that it's probably better at this point to concentrate our efforts on the most relevant ones, such as the ones that affect the gameplay.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:06, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

==Moving to "Little Bird"==
This wasn't discussed. Just saying. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:10, 20 October 2017 (EDT)

== BJAODN ==

dude, when I saw 1996 on the year on the first revision, It should be in BJAODN.{{unsigned|Astro-Lanceur}}
:That makes no sense. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 20:07, 27 November 2017 (EST)
::It was me forgetting to change the date on Super Mario 3D Land on the infobox from a copy-pasta. It originally said 1996. Considering how quickly the mistake was fixed, I don't think it deserves to be on BJAODN. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 21:30, 27 November 2017 (EST)
:::Oh. Yeah, no, probably not. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 22:03, 27 November 2017 (EST)

== "Little Bird" ==
In the one source we have for the name, The Cat Mario Show, "little bird" is clearly a descriptor and not meant to be a proper name. They're likely called "little birds" in the first place to distinguish them from other birds in the game, like [[Flaptor]] and [[Wingo]]. It's even shortened to just a generic "bird" after being introduced. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 19:57, May 23, 2019 (EDT)
:Even if we are going to keep the “little” part of the name, it’s still spelled “little bird,” not “Little Bird.” The capitalization should be changed. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 18:27, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
:I have always been confused about them being called "Little Birds" and thought "Birds" would make more sense. I didn't notice our sources for that until now. Since both sources refer to them as "little birds", we should keep their name, because it currently appears to be official. However, "little" is not capitalized in either source, so I do agree about changing the capitalization. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 18:47, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
::As surprising as it sounds, ''little'' is part of the Japanese name as well, hence this consistency in using the adjective might not be a coincidence. In any case, both in Japanese and in English those birds don't have a proper name, so I agree with changing the capitalization to match that used in the official Twitter account. [[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:57, August 19, 2019 (EDT)

== Rename to "small bird" ==

{{TPP}}
Our friends here are consistently referred to as "small birds" in ''[[The Art of Super Mario Odyssey]]'' (pages 69 142, 249). Because this text is a direct translation of a Japanese book and it is equally as justifiable to translate [[Little bird#Names in other languages|their Japanese name]] as "little bird", I thought this could have just been a preference of the book's translators. However, I recently noticed that these birds are explicitly named in ''Super Mario Odyssey'', in the mission "[[List of Power Moons in Bowser's Kingdom#Small Bird in Bowser's Castle|Small Bird in Bowser's Castle]]".

In all other missions that involve striking a bird for a Power Moon, the general term "bird" is used, but this sometimes includes avifauna that are clearly not the same thing as the little birds - namely hawks, seagulls, doves, pigeons, penguins and the small UFOs. They have different body shapes, and are not recognized as "small birds" in ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey''. So I think "bird" is the overarching term for all of these animal characters. But "''small'' bird"? That's specific to the subject of this article, and I believe it is the current, preferred English name.

I offer two options:

#'''Rename the article to "small bird".'''
#'''Leave it as is.'''

'''Proposer''': {{User|Nintendo101}}<br/>
'''Deadline''': April 18th, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Rename article to "small bird"===
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal; in-game names take priority over other names.
#{{User|Somethingone}} If this is the official in-game name, then it makes sense to go with it. Best to be consistent with our policy.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We are sorry to the Small Birds that we've been using the wrong name for them this entire time... <small>no joke, we have this article perma-watchlisted just because we love it when this gets a new picture in the gallery.</small> We would also be fine with Small bird as a mere redirect, but we think this just makes sense for consistency's sake--no matter how small the subject matter is, we should be treating it with the same scrutiny and quality as the rest of our articles, even if the previous name is more poetic sounding in our opinion.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Seems like a pretty cut-and-dry case to me.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all.

===Leave it as is===
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Based on what emerged from the comments. These birds have had a consistent design across many games, and are not what we have in Bowser’s Kingdom. There are small differences among the many small birds of Odyssey, with the little birds being one of them, so we should first ask ourselves a different question: do we want to make this page a page about all the small birds or do we want it to deal with just the iconic ones that appear in several games, with the same consistent design? Worth noting how the Twitter post dealing with Bonneton’s little birds - that are instead the familiar little birds we saw in the other games wearing a hat - indeed used the term “little birds”.

===Comments===
Just a comment, but "little bird" just has a nicer ring to it. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:31, April 4, 2024 (EDT)
:I agree, it sounds so poetic. Sometimes wiki policy can make names so dry. [[File:Bowsersm64.png|35px]] [[User:MegaBowser64|MegaBowser64]] ([[User talk:MegaBowser64|talk]]) [[File:BowserNSMBU.png|35px]] 20:32, April 4, 2024 (EDT)
::I also prefer the name "little bird", but "small bird" is just the current name. Besides, it is part of a shared naming convention with similar creatures highlighted in ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'': [[small animal]]s (an encompassing term for the chipmunks, rats, crabs, and geckos) and [[small UFO]]s (the tiny [[Torkdrift]]-looking critters). Those creatures will receive their own articles at some point. Changing the name of this bird article would accurately reflect their conceptual relationship. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:15, April 4, 2024 (EDT)

This is just an idea, but maybe "small bird" can be a redirect for little bird? {{User:Sparks/sig}} 20:35, April 4, 2024 (EDT)
:That would be a good compromise, I would at least rather have that than do nothing at all. [[File:Bowsersm64.png|35px]] [[User:MegaBowser64|MegaBowser64]] ([[User talk:MegaBowser64|talk]]) [[File:BowserNSMBU.png|35px]] 22:28, April 4, 2024 (EDT)

Anyhow I'm abstaining from voting as it feels like a very very hairsplit decision so the impact either way is insignificant. {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:38, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
:Oh also "seagulls". D:< Hmph!! {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:40, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
::This is one of those things where Nintendo made a decision to annoy me specifically. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:50, April 5, 2024 (EDT)

I'm not sure how significant this is, but I think it's important to note that the small birds in Bowser's Kingdom are NOT the same kind of bird as the little dove-like birds we see across the Mushroom Kingdom. They do have the same shape, but their feathers are brown and black, making them resemble little sparrows. If we end up moving this page with ''this'' mission as the clincher, maybe it's important that we cover ''all'' small birds across ''Super Mario Odyssey'' in this article (as well as mentioning the butterflies from the Lost Kingdom, and the UFO """birds""" from the Moon Kingdom), instead of only some of them. {{User:Arend/sig}} 18:43, April 6, 2024 (EDT)
:The impression I have from ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'' is that every kingdom has ''a'' bird, but not all of these animals are considered ''the'' small bird, if that makes sense. The top hat-wearing birds from the Cap Kingdom, the {{wp|scarlet macaw}}s from the Cascade Kingdom, {{wp|budgerigar}}s from the Sand Kingdom, pink birds from the Lake Kingdom, {{wp|blue jay}}s from the Wooded Kingdom, salt-covered birds from the Luncheon Kingdom, {{wp|Eurasian tree sparrow}}s from Bowser's Kingdom, and traditional white birds from the Mushroom Kingdom are all small birds. I think they should all be covered here.

:Though mechanical equivalencies, the avifauna present in the other kingdoms (the doves from the Cloud Kingdom, pigeons from the Metro Kingdom, [[Seagull|gulls]] from the Seaside Kingdom, [[penguin]]s from the Snow Kingdom, mini-Torkdrifts from the Moon Kingdom, and [[Butterfly|butterflies]] from the Lost Kingdom) are not considered small birds, and should have their own articles. (Three of them already do.) - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:53, April 6, 2024 (EDT)

@Mister Wu, I am not sure if the birds from ''Super Mario 64'', the parrots from ''Sunshine'' or any other animals in games released before ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]'' are ''the'' small bird, and I am not personally invested in reducing them into a generic "bird" article. However, I do feel pretty confidant that the sparrows in Bowser's Kingdom and the traditional white birds from ''3D Land'', ''3D World'', and ''Odyssey'' are intended to be the literal same thing, even if they are derived from different real world species of animals. That was just a design choice to compliment the respective kingdom's topography, similar to how every kingdom has its own [[Flower (environmental object)|vegetation]] that are all the same thing even though they reflect a wide diversity of real-world species.

I should note that the blue jays from the Wooded Kingdom are consistently referred to as "small birds" in ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'' - they are never referred to as the species they clearly are based on, nor are they ever generically just called a "bird", so the impression I have is that it is a literal translation of the same Japanese name used for the white birds of older games. That tells me they are recognized as the same subject. If these blue jays are "small birds", then Bowser's Kingdom's sparrows of the same name are certainly "small birds". That's at least my view. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:01, April 7, 2024 (EDT)
:I’m not arguing whether the small birds take inspiration from the little birds, but I see it as an expansion of the concept: in the Mushroom Kingdom and Bonneton we have the familiar little birds, that then ''Odyssey'' reveals being part of a bigger family of small birds. It should be noted that this page deals with the little birds because they are recurring and even had gameplay value in at least one game. They definitely deserve an individual page. Now, we might argue that there’s simply too little material to make a page about the broader small birds, and at this point we can decide to make this a page about the small birds as well. Absolutely nothing wrong with this, but I think at this point we should indeed vote on this intermediate step before jumping to conclusions and already making the rename. This is my position, and sorry if it wasn’t clear.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 07:13, April 8, 2024 (EDT)
::Thank you for clarifying your position. It's appreciated :) I I respect your perspective. But I do think ''Super Mario Odyssey'' considers the small birds in the Mushroom Kingdom, Cascade Kingdom etc. to all be one in the same, not just conceptually-related but distinct birds, and it consequently would be more accurate to keep them all in one article together.

::I'm not sure how helpful this is, but it is noteworthy that the posts dedicated to the small birds from Fossil Falls, Tostarena, Steam Gardens, and Mount Volbono on the [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/switch/aaaca/archives/world.html?page=1 Odyssey Journal] refer to them all as {{hover|小鳥|ko tori}} ("small bird"), whereas a post dedicated to the pigeons in the Metro Kingdom simply refers to them as {{hover|鳥|tori}} ("bird"). To me, this name unifies these specific birds together, distinguishes them from the other avifauna in the game, and is directly shared with the white crested birds in the ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'', suggesting they are one in the same. The use of 小鳥 for the small birds in Tostarena, Steam Gardens, and Mount Volbono mirrors the localization choices made in ''[[The Art of Super Mario Odyssey]]'' (and presumably the original Japanese text), where there was plenty of opportunity to have adopted more discrete names for these animals, as was done with penguins, gulls, doves, and pigeons in the same book. Not these guys though - they are all explicitly named "small birds". In my experience on the wiki, we have lumped other subjects together that were previously seen as different because they share the same name in Japanese, and it seems inconsistent to not do the same here. (With regards to ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'', they are demonstrated to even share the same name in English.)

::I would also say that the small birds in Bonneton are probably not supposed to be the same literal species as the one from the Mushroom Kingdom. Their differences are more apparent [https://www.models-resource.com/nintendo_switch/supermarioodyssey/model/66702/ here], where they are side-by-side. Their body shapes are different. Their beak shapes and sizes are different. The color of their eyes differ, and even the shade of white differs. If they were suppose to be the same literal species, then I don't understand why they would have changed so many subtle details and not just include a hat. So I would think splitting each small bird into separate articles would necessitate splitting the Bonneton birds off too, and I am not sure that is the most accurate direction to take this. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:41, April 9, 2024 (EDT)
:::While the bit about the Bonneton birds is valid, I think these two bits of information from the site you linked clarify how the different small birds are viewed:
::: 砂の国「アッチーニャ」に生息する黄緑色の小鳥です。街中や砂漠のオアシスに暮らしています。群れで集まっている所には、何か秘密が…？
:::Here they are stating that they live in towns and desert oasis, so it’s pretty clear that they are talking about the specific variant of Tostarena, this one is even clearer:
::: 滝の国「ダイナフォー」に生息する小鳥。都市の国に生息する鳥とは異なり、カラフルなのが特徴です。ZZZ…
:::Here they clearly say that the small birds of Fossil Falls are peculiar because unlike the birds of the cities they are colorful.
:::Ultimately, like I said before, the various small birds aren’t seen as a single species, but rather as various species that all behave similarly, like the little birds of the Mushroom Kingdom. You can see those as counterparts.
:::For this reason I would have preferred if we made first this page a page about the various small birds - since honestly I doubt we could make more than a stub about the ''Super Mario Odyssey''’s concept of small birds - and then the name change would have been consequential, with the introductory paragraph noting how the small birds of the Mushroom Kingdom are recurring and were often referred to as '''little birds''' in English material.
:::Not a big deal, just what I think to be a more direct M.O., so that the indirect purpose of the proposal - making this a page about the various small birds we see in ''Super Mario Odyssey'' - was more apparent. Indeed, all the case you listed in the body of the proposal aren’t about the little birds of the Mushroom Kingdom, so at this point, with the official site confirming they are different species, if we were to be pedantic we arguably shouldn’t rename the page if we didn’t intend to make this a page about the small birds.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 04:51, April 10, 2024 (EDT)

::::I mean, I would be fine with dropping this proposal if you feel this is the wider discussion we should have first. I can see the benefit of having dedicated articles for each small bird. I am sorry if it seemed like I was trying to Trojan horse this proposal - the way the page was already written and the way its [[Gallery:Little bird|gallery]] page was laid out left me under the impression that this article was already written with other small birds in mind. My intent was just to change the name to what I believe the preferred name is in ''Super Mario Odyssey''. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:21, April 10, 2024 (EDT)
@@ Line 31: / Line 31: @@
 == Rename to "small bird" ==
-{{Settled TPP}}
-{{Proposal outcome|passed|6-1|Rename}}
+{{TPP}}
-Our friends here are consistently referred to as "small birds" in ''[[The Art of Super Mario Odyssey]]'' (pages 69 142, 249). Because this text is a direct translation of a Japanese book and it is equally as justifiable to translate [[Small bird#Names in other languages|their Japanese name]] as "little bird", I thought this could have just been a preference of the book's translators. However, I recently noticed that these birds are explicitly named in ''Super Mario Odyssey'', in the mission "[[List of Power Moons in Bowser's Kingdom#Small Bird in Bowser's Castle|Small Bird in Bowser's Castle]]".
+Our friends here are consistently referred to as "small birds" in ''[[The Art of Super Mario Odyssey]]'' (pages 69 142, 249). Because this text is a direct translation of a Japanese book and it is equally as justifiable to translate [[Little bird#Names in other languages|their Japanese name]] as "little bird", I thought this could have just been a preference of the book's translators. However, I recently noticed that these birds are explicitly named in ''Super Mario Odyssey'', in the mission "[[List of Power Moons in Bowser's Kingdom#Small Bird in Bowser's Castle|Small Bird in Bowser's Castle]]".
 In all other missions that involve striking a bird for a Power Moon, the general term "bird" is used, but this sometimes includes avifauna that are clearly not the same thing as the little birds - namely hawks, seagulls, doves, pigeons, penguins and the small UFOs. They have different body shapes, and are not recognized as "small birds" in ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey''. So I think "bird" is the overarching term for all of these animal characters. But "''small'' bird"? That's specific to the subject of this article, and I believe it is the current, preferred English name.
@@ Line 92: / Line 92: @@
 ::::I mean, I would be fine with dropping this proposal if you feel this is the wider discussion we should have first. I can see the benefit of having dedicated articles for each small bird. I am sorry if it seemed like I was trying to Trojan horse this proposal - the way the page was already written and the way its [[Gallery:Little bird|gallery]] page was laid out left me under the impression that this article was already written with other small birds in mind. My intent was just to change the name to what I believe the preferred name is in ''Super Mario Odyssey''. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:21, April 10, 2024 (EDT)
-:::::My thoughts on this are still the same as they were 7 years ago: I think that indeed all the small "fly away when approached" (and otherwise generic) birds should be treated as the same subject regardless of design, including the [[Bird (Super Mario Sunshine)|ones from ''Super Mario Sunshine'']]. ''Odyssey'' just clarified that that is the correct decision by giving multiple designs. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:27, April 10, 2024 (EDT)
-::::::To be fully fair, the behavior of the small birds is still that of the little birds, and the appearance of the little birds continues to be very consistent. They’re a very clear distinguishing element of the modern games. With that being said, we could indeed make a proposal to decide if we want this page to only cover the Mushroom Kingdom little birds or if we want to include the ''Odyssey'' small birds or, as a third choice, include even the ''Sunshine'' birds. In my opinion, it’s not a big deal if we just keep this proposal, in case we’ll make a second proposal afterwards, so in the meantime you might gather some material to see if indeed Nintendo wanted to make a connection between the ''Sunshine'' birds and the ''Odyssey'' small birds - after all Isle Delfino was originally planned for ''Odyssey'' so there might be some leftover material about a possible “bridge” between the two.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:22, April 12, 2024 (EDT)