Editing User talk:24.47.220.3

== Mario Kart Wii statistics ==

The kart/bike comparison is based on the bar graph levels. The [[Zip Zip]]'s graph is not comparable to the [[Daytripper]], for example, because the statistics do not make a similar graph. If you are referring to the internal data, a new visualization or better wording should be used instead to help better your point. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:09, March 23, 2020 (EDT)

Hey dude, you are the same person who is removing the edits for the people making changes to not just these pages I edited, but for the game itself. I understand you are an administrator and have "all the power on this site," but please, let me put what I typed down. Also, I don't want to be rude, but others have criticized what you have wrote in other articles, stating that the information is false among other things. For my post, graphs are not relevant for the sake of this article, and are not even necessary since the ingame stats are enough. Also, it is pretty much common sense since the two have very similar acceleration and weight, which, in the game, shows as it to be the same. I will be putting what I wrote before back into those pages. Instead of removing them, if you strongly believe what was written is previously correct, then at least run it by other users on this site and ask them what they think.
{{unsigned|24.47.220.3}}
:I don't have "all the power", but there are guidelines you need to follow. The information you are putting in is not entirely correct, for the reason that I explained above. ''Mario Kart Wii''{{'}}s statistics are screwy, as the visual representation does not match the internal data. However, we shouldn't neglect the information that is visibly presented, as many casual readers and players are not aware of the internal data and likely do not care for it in the midst of game play.
:"graphs are not relevant for the sake of this article" Yes they are.
:"I will be putting what I wrote before back into those pages." Or you could not, as this will lead to edit warring, and again, the information is not entirely correct. You are removing information that is still accurate, replacing it with information that may also be accurate, but does not match with the visible data. Information should not be constantly changing.
:I have explained all of this before, but I'll say it again: If you want the information to stay, it needs to not replace the information that can be very easily verifiable simply by looking at the comparisons. Both the visual data and the internal data can be on the page, but replacing one with the other is not acceptable. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 16:59, March 23, 2020 (EDT)
::Also, where are these "others" you speak of? I have only talked to two people in the Gmail account, one being you. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:07, March 23, 2020 (EDT)


Again, how is the information I am putting in not entirely correct? Bar graph level? Dude, as I explained again, graphs are not at all relevant in this game. I have been playing this game for years, watching videos, reading manuals, among other databases. None of them have discussed graphs at all for vehicle statistics. The most these guides get into are the number statistics that are given in the article pages themselves, as well as what is presented in game. So again, you are not right when stating the games statistics are screwy, and if I interpret correctly, you are stating the same for future Mario Kart games as well, since the statistics provided are much smaller than in this game. Therefore, the description and presentation of the graphs you are discussing is 100% negligible. Notice how you also failed to give me a reason as to why graphs are relevant in the game (or for the article, as I discussed earlier).
Also, I, along with others, have received edit warnings made by you for the articles presented for this game. I don't know these individuals, but I want to let you know that, if I interpret correctly, we are really frustrated by your constant removal of our posts, and we would like administration, or the supervisors of the articles to review specifically how you are in charge of being at such a position of being an administrator. This example right here clearly shows how the reasoning you are providing for my so called 'incorrect information" is wrong. Like I said, I don't know if these individuals feel the same way, but I am letting you know how I feel with you removing these edits. Again, I am not trying to be rude; I am just conveying how I feel about you and this matter.
Finally, I know for a fact in the edit history others are changing it. And what Gmail account are you referring to? Please elaborate further.
{{unsigned|24.47.220.3}}
:Do you not see the bar graphs at all when playing the game, the ones that show when selecting your vehicle? That is what these are based on, and are accurate as far as I can tell. They are just as relevant as the internal information, as, for all intents and purposes, they still display accurate information as far as immediate depictions are available.
:Whether you are frustrated with me or not is not my concern. My concern is making sure the information on the wiki is accurate, and if you do not care to cooperate, I will continue to hand out warnings and blocks. At the moment, this IP address, whoever is behind it, is in violation of "edit warring, failure to heed administrative action, and ignoring advice given to help better the article". Continuing to violate this will result in another block on this account. I am not saying your information is wrong, I'm saying your actions are. 
:One of your friends and/or group members has been contacting us on Gmail, but the last message was a while ago. This is all the same information I have given him.
:I have talked to the admins already, after the first couple of instances of this happened. You are not the first to go through this. They agreed both instances of information are correct, there is nothing wrong with the graphs, and overwriting the visible information with the internal data is not the way to handle this. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:25, March 23, 2020 (EDT)
Yes I do see these bar graphs and no numbers are shown for them. All that is shown is a box and a box inside of that same box highlighting in a different color the furthest it goes, if this makes sense. Since there are no numbers, you (or whoever wrote them) cannot make up information, as that can confuse the reader of the article like me. Therefore, that cannot be relevant or accurate.
Also, being frustrated with you is a concern, as like I said, there are indeed a vast amount of others who are frustrated with their valid information being removed and being replaced by your ignorant and, quite frankly, rubbish information. This deters us contributing to the wiki and becomes something worse for the wiki because you are losing visitors like us, which is something both you and I don't want.
I am not "ignoring advice given to help better the article," as the information that was provided is false and, just like any other wiki, is free for the public to made edits to. If you are that strict of others editing your wiki, then make it selective so that only certain people can edit it or explicitly state it in your terms and conditions. I don't mean to be rude by any means, but your autism and other conditions are making it really hard for me to comprehend with such a menial, minuscule issue. I feel like someone else should view this information from a fresh set of eyes because what you're saying is utter nonsense and beyond ridiculous; you are making up rules for a wiki that is accessible to everyone. My actions are of good will and of no harm; what I wrote is far clearer and better understandable to the others viewing the article, as what is already stated in terms of the numbers, is false information.
As far as I'm aware, I don't think anyone else that I personally know uses this wiki.
If you have talked to an admin already, then let another admin discuss this with me because it is not worth in discussing it with someone like you. Like I said, I mean no offense by any regards, but discussing this with you is pointless, especially with this article, since you have removed valid and correct information in the past.
Finally, I will not make anymore edits since you oversee me because of being an admin, however, as I said earlier, I want to discuss this issue with another admin, or someone above your position because this has been going on for a while now as you can tell, and this shouldn't be ignored despite being such a minor issue.
{{unsigned|24.47.220.3}}
:The stats are based on 80 being the max, which I think is a value only the visible chart follows, not the internal numbers. The numbers are not visibly displayed, it's just a max number the graph has to follow. If this needs to be adjusted or clarified, it should be brought up on Mario Kart Wii's talk page.
:I could very easily just block you right now for calling me ignorant and rubbish and then blaming my autism when I am fully capable of comprehending the entire situation, on top of everything else that has happened, but I agree, this two-person discussion is not going to solve much for you. If you want another admin involved, I will ask another admin to get involved. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:58, March 23, 2020 (EDT)
:First of all, you shouldn't blame the autism of a person, especially in this case. Secondly, even looking at the in-game stats, the comparison between Daytripper and Zip zip feels forced. The two vehicles don't have comparable acceleration at all, the E value, determining the overalll strength of the acceleration, is completely different (0.65 of the Daytripper versus 0.2 of the Zip Zip),making the Zip Zip accelerate way slower, especially at the end. The weight isn't similar as well, we're talking about 4.31 versus 3.47; when compared to the other medium vehicles, the Daytripper has average weight compared to the other medium kart, while the Zip Zip is on the light side of the medium bikes, too. Max speed-wise, the Daytripper is the slowest of the medium karts while the Zip Zip is not the slowest of the medium bikes, not even just the drift-type ones. The Daytripper has the highest Off-Road Handlimg of the medium karts, while the Zip Zip has the highest Off-Road Speed of the medium bikes. The Daytripper has the lowest traction stats, the Zip Zip has not. I think this attempt at finding kart/bike counterparts is really forced here.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 00:57, March 24, 2020 (EDT)
Hello, and thank you for your response. I want to start off by saying I was NOT blaming the autism of this person; I am saying that that may be deterring him from proving his point to me, which is the reason as to why I asked him multiple times to speak with an administrator. My intent was to not be rude to him, but I guess he must have taken it the wrong way (despite me telling him multiple times). 

Next, I want to know where you are getting these "E" values for. How come you are stating the relationship between these two vehicles is forced? I don't see how it is in game at least; I played the game yesterday and saw that the two were actually similar. I do agree with you stating that the weight differs, however, the reason should be that bikes are lighter than karts, which is obvious in this game. The Daytripper and the Zip Zip each have average weight (which you stated), they have good acceleration, they have mediocre traction (which again, you stated), and the handling of the vehicles are also superb. None of the stats other than the weight of the Zip ZIp (due to it being a bike), if you want to argue, differ from each other. Even the in-game stats are similar. Heck, I have seen on other sites and guides of this game where each of them state every kart/bike having a counterpart besides the Piranha Prowler and the Phantom. They also NEVER mention the Sugarscoot and the Daytripper being counterparts for each other.
:You can see the actual stats used by the game [[Mario_Kart_Wii#Vehicles' Stats|here]]. The Sugarscoot wasn't mentioned here, but I'll let you know this: 
:* both the Daytripper and the Sugarscoot are the slowest kart/bike of the medium class
:* the Daytripper and the Sugarscoot have the same E-value of the acceleration (0.65), even when drifting (0.965)
:* both the Daytripper and the Sugarscoot have the highest handling of the medium class
:* both the Daytripper and the Sugarscoot have the worst traction of their own type (the Sneakster has even worse traction, but it's a hang-on type a.k.a. inside drifting bike)
:* both the Daytripper and the Sugarscoot have the highest off-road handling
:
:Ultimately, if they weren't put together, it's likely because people didn't know the in-game stats. Those stats show more similarities between Daytripper and Sugarscoot than between Daytripper and Zip Zip. Also, acceleration in ''Mario Kart Wii'' is very difficult to evaluate, because as soon as you start drifting it skyrockets, a behavior stemming from ''Mario Kart: Double Dash!!''. Ideally, the speedometer mod should be used while going forward without drifting and steering and the video should be recorded to have the various acceleration profiles. The recording is mandatory if you want to compare acceleration while drifting, due to how quick it is.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 15:40, March 24, 2020 (EDT)
::"My intent was to not be rude to him, but I guess he must have taken it the wrong way (despite me telling him multiple times)." FYI, saying you don't intend rudeness, and similar expressions, does not excuse you from being so. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 16:44, March 24, 2020 (EDT)

Again you're wrong, and the article in its history even mentioned the Classic Dragster's counterpart being the Sugarscoot. However, if you don't believe it, then let me explain. The Daytripper has a higher weight compared to the Sugarscoot. The Zip Zip weighs more than the Sugarscoot. Therefore, the Daytripper and the Zip Zip match in that category. While the Zip Zip does not accelerate as much as the Sugarscoot, it is almost identical to the Daaytripper since the Classic Dragster is very very similar in terms of its acceleration and weight stat to that of the Sugarscoot's.

Where is the "E" stat you are getting? I have asked that but no one has given me a response. You cannot compare acceleration or stats as a whole to previous Mario Kart games because of many reasons, with a major one being how the game doesn't give number statistics.

Finally, Alex95, I would really appreciate if you would let me and Wu discuss this matter. Your lack of comprehending information is distracting for me to discuss the major issue. I want to leave a final note for you saying that all this time, my intent is not to be rude to you. You seem like a very nice person, but your removal of information really frustrates me and, again, if I interpret correctly, other users of the wiki. I'm not going to say what you can or cannot do, but just be careful. You have admin for a reason, which is obviously very good. But just be careful not to abuse your power so much and remove edits that are true in nature. Thank you bud.
:I'm sorry but you absolutely need to have a look at the in-game stats for the discussion to go on. You can find them here:
:
:[[Mario_Kart_Wii#Vehicles' Stats]]
:
:I told you five points that the Daytripper and the Sugarscoot have in common, to which I'll now add two more:
:* both the Daytripper and the Sugarscoot lose the least speed while steering
:* both the Daytripper and the Sugarscoot have the second best Mini-Turbo length
:you absolutely ignored the previous five points (now seven) in the name of weight considerations and an arbitrary perception of acceleration, plus previous edits that were undone for very good reasons. One single stat isn't enough to make two different vehicles similar, especially when another vehicle has far more points in common. Regarding acceleration, the E-value determines the overall shape of the acceleration curve, the higher the value, you can find more details on the meaning of the various acceleration values [http://wiki.tockdom.com/wiki/Mario_Kart_Wii#Vehicle%20Statistics here]. You misunderstood what I wrote about acceleration, by the way, I was just noting how the concept of changing acceleration during a drift (which can be seen in ''Mario Kart Wii'' by looking at the very different acceleration values) stems from a previous game, ''Mario Kart: Double Dash'', that definitely [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IRxK5lKZooopd3vx6mb069I414UsucaQFntal3L2cTA/edit?usp=sharing has numbered statistics].--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 20:22, March 25, 2020 (EDT)

You are still wrong because you, nor anyone else, have failed to tell me where you are getting these numbers from. The Daytripper, in fact, has a lot of speed when steering, so that is completely false. Acceleration is not at all arbitrary, as this game has another version of accelerating quickly (holding 1 and 2 buttons down simultaneously). The link you took me to has no meaning; it fails to describe where these numbers are taken from. That is why I'm making my claim of weight and acceleration since they are two stats that can easily be compared in game when playing.
{{unsigned|24.47.220.3}}

:The data comes from the <tt>kartParam.bin</tt> file in the <tt>/Race/Common.szs</tt> archive of the filesystem of ''Mario Kart Wii''. It contains the data actually used by the game. We are surely not ignoring those in the name of claims that so far don't even build on top of linked recorded evidence. ''lose the least speed while steering'' means that the top speed of the two vehicles is higher when steering, please read what I write instead of labeling it as ''completely false''. The standstill Mini-Turbo, [[Mini-Turbo#Mario Kart Wii|a technique we cover]], has a fixed 75 frames charge, independently of the vehicle, the acceleration stats don't influence that charge.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 16:37, March 27, 2020 (EDT)

So how do you access it then? I read what you wrote and label it completely false because the in-game statistics clearly differs from what you're saying. This also works in terms of racing in-game.
{{unsigned|24.47.220.3}}

:Uh, don't filenames take priority over the in-game stats? Don't they actually show the stats ''as they are''? I'm pretty sure there's at least ''one'' program out there for extracting Wii game files, especially since the console is over 10 years old at this point. That's likely how he accessed the stats. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:03, March 28, 2020 (EDT)

I understand what you're saying but he is not showing a reference to those ingame files. I agree with how there can be a program to get these stats, but no one has shown it to me. Once I get at least one good picture, I will stop replying and leave the page where it is. As it is anyways, all other reference pages and other wikis show the two not being counterparts and instead being the way which I originally stated before it was removed.
{{unsigned|24.47.220.3}}
:The process to extract the data from the files that I used is pretty simple, it goes as follows (I also added at least a picture of each stage, you can view it throught the links):
:
:# I start from the binary file, <tt>kartParam.bin</tt>, [https://i.imgur.com/kHA20tZ.png opened in a Hex Editor]. Its header (white part before the selection in blue) states that the data is referred to 36 elements (24 in hexadecimal = 36). Said 36 elements are the vehicles of ''Mario Kart Wii'': (6 karts + 6 bikes) × 3 weight classes = 36 vehicles. The whole content is copied as a single line of space-seaprated 32-bit hexadecimal values (8 hexadecimal values = 32 bits).
:# The line is [https://i.imgur.com/Bk3NDaO.png pasted into Notepad++ in order for it to be properly separated in 36 lines] (since the header told us the data is referred to 36 elements). Once it has been properly split, the data is copied.
:# The 36 lines are [https://i.imgur.com/6fI52gW.png pasted in a spreadsheet], with the use of the ''HEX2DEC'' function and a [https://www.excelforum.com/tips-and-tutorials/687757-whats-in-your-personal-xls.html#post2111661 hexadecimal-to-floating-point routine] whose correct working was verified through the Hex editor's built-in hexadecimal-to-floating-point conversion (and can anyway be verified even in the image by looking at the last two rows) the hexadecimal values are [https://i.imgur.com/SDk5reR.png converted into numbers], which are then copied and pasted [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ED0T-w9q7_-z5lyBZAmBGBWuhLExSlYDcfZgzrdm7Wg/edit?usp=sharing in this sheet].
:# How to find which is which? Well, the vehicles '''are in the same order of the in-game menu''', going from light, then medium, then heavy of the top left to the light, then medium the heavy of the slot immediately below until the bottom left is reached, then going to top right to bottom right. You can see this by looking at the third column (column C), which dataminers discovered being the column of the weight class (0 = light, 1 = medium, 2 = heavy), while the second column (column B) states the vehicle type (0 = kart, 1 = drift-type bike a.k.a. outside drifting bike, 2 = hang-on type bike a.k.a. inside drifting bike). An easy cross-check of this information can be done by looking at the Mini-Turbo length column (column AB, immediately recognizable as it is coded as a small integer value instead of a floating point value - it's indeed the numner of frames the Mini-Turbo lasts), which then leads to the discovery of the max speed column (column G). Even just with these two columns it's possible to identify vehicles such as the Jetsetter (row 15, highest max speed of 85.07, worst Mini-Turbo length of 15 frames) or the Bullet Bike/Mach Bike/Flame Runner trio (especially the first in row 22, with its 40 frames Mini-Turbo length, the highest Mini-Turbo length coded in the vehicles' stats) and those provide a guidance and an insight into how the data is organized in the file.
:# Therefore the Daytripper is row 14, the Sugarscoot is row 26 and the Zip Zip is row 29. Column N is the E-value of the acceleration while going in a straight line. It is 0.65 for the Daytripper and the Sugarscoot, it is 0.2 for the Zip Zip. How was the purpose of that column discovered? Through various tests done by the various modders and dataminers, who also gave it that name.
:As an aside, since I thought at this point it was important to verify the actual impact of those stats and since you wanted to have proof based on actual in-game behavior as well, I personally did a test of the acceleration of the Daytripper compared to that of Sugarscoot and the Zip Zip using two players VS Races, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyBq_vewims which I recorded and posted on YouTube]. As you can see from the recorded game footage, the acceleration of the Sugarscoot is much more close to the acceleration of the Daytripper than the Zip Zip's, confirming what the in-game data already hinted.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 22:23, March 28, 2020 (EDT)

So thank you for providing me with the video and your aside. There was a similar problem with the Spear and the Mach Bike in this game. The ingame acceleration stat showed the two to be identical to each other, but in game, it showed that the Mach Bike accelerated faster. Having said that, I don't think it is worthy to pit the two vehicles to each other. I played the game yesterday and showed the Sugarscoot to be more of a match to the Classic Dragster since the acceleration is almost identical and weight is closely similar.{{unsigned|24.47.220.3}}
:No problem, I'm glad we finally could understand each other. Indeed, the stats shown by the game in the bars are a way devised by the developers to summarize multiple underlying statistics and even some behaviors such as the inside drifting mechanics, as such they sometimes don't reflect the actual in-game performance well.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:56, March 30, 2020 (EDT)
No but you still don't understand what I'm saying.
@@ Line 80: / Line 80: @@
 So thank you for providing me with the video and your aside. There was a similar problem with the Spear and the Mach Bike in this game. The ingame acceleration stat showed the two to be identical to each other, but in game, it showed that the Mach Bike accelerated faster. Having said that, I don't think it is worthy to pit the two vehicles to each other. I played the game yesterday and showed the Sugarscoot to be more of a match to the Classic Dragster since the acceleration is almost identical and weight is closely similar.{{unsigned|24.47.220.3}}
 :No problem, I'm glad we finally could understand each other. Indeed, the stats shown by the game in the bars are a way devised by the developers to summarize multiple underlying statistics and even some behaviors such as the inside drifting mechanics, as such they sometimes don't reflect the actual in-game performance well.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:56, March 30, 2020 (EDT)
-No but you still don't understand what I'm saying.{{unsigned|24.47.220.3}}
+No but you still don't understand what I'm saying.
-:Now I see. As I was telling before, five acceleration stats are used in this game for the acceleration in astraight line, in the columns from J to N. The one in column N is apparently the most influential: the change from 0.2 to 0.65 yields big changes in the acceleration. The other four ones on the other hand seems to be used to fine tune the acceleration and are relative to specific points of the whole acceleration curve. Since the E-value in column N is identical for both the Spear (row 33) and the Mach Bike (row 23), the differences in acceleration all stem from these four values. In particular, the one in column J is used at the beginning. You can see that the Spear has a value of 0.172, much lower than that of the Mach Bike (which has 0.65056), resulting in the Spear starting slower at the beginning than the Mach Bike. Then, as a certain relative speed is reached, the value in column K is used. There, since the Spear has a higher value than the Mach bike (0.438 versus 0.2936), you'll see the Spear regaining ground and even passing the Mach bike, until they'll reach a similar acceleration (the values in columns L and M are used). [https://youtu.be/1BDayMP4uQg  I recorded another video showing this phenomenon as well], it's very interesting to see the contribution of these fine-tuning paramters.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 21:49, March 31, 2020 (EDT)
-Okay then. Thank you for your help.