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| ::{{User:Mario/sig}} 16:59, June 9, 2024 (EDT) | | ::{{User:Mario/sig}} 16:59, June 9, 2024 (EDT) |
| :::Well, Wario, sooner or later someone ''will'' pick you up from the high seas and sell your frozen carcass thinking you're some prehistoric walrus. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:34, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Regarding courses ==
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| There are numerous reasons I'd consider how I had it to be better. Aside from the obvious "English reads left-to-right," the icons don't accurately display how the courses look in practice, which is just as important as the icons, and especially what the track layout looks like - which for a ''racing'' game, is one of their most important aspects. And having to switch pages to find that info is monotonous, time-consuming, and annoying, having them in one easily accessible page formatted in a useful-and-space-efficient manner for easier comparison is much, much more convenient. Also, using the "*" for the wi-fi compatibility was confusing and easy-to-miss, using a relevant image is much more useful. I'm primarily inspired by {{user|Nintendo101}}'s contributions on the 3D Mario platformers, I don't see how these differ significantly from those. Also the message you cited on my talk page was just about making it look good on smaller screens, which I have taken into account by making the windows dynamically rearrange themselves (which wasn't an easy solution to come up with but it works ''wonderfully'' in practice). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:33, June 12, 2024 (EDT)
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| :I maintain that this design riddles the list with visual and informational clutter, which makes it look less like a useful chart and more like a collection of infoboxes. It looks bad regardless of display size, in addition to filling up the page with tens of thousands of bytes, all in the name of a moderate attempt at centralizing information on each course. In the above-mentioned comment, Waluigi Time duly addressed your tendency to add too many images to a table, a problem that resonates here as well: for each entry in MKDS's redesigned course list, there are '''4''' images shown, 2 of which are merely similar shots of the same course.<br>I'll agree that overhead maps present essential information about a race course and deserve to be somehow incorporated into the list (it seemed to work well enough when you worked on the [[Golf]] page), though that is not something I can state about music samples, the file names, and the staff ghosts. Readers looking to quickly navigate through a list of courses shouldn't be bombarded with information all at once. The concern that it's inconveniently scattered across many articles is something I'd consider to be unfounded given the solution of a Staff Ghost section (formerly on the same page) and the dedicated media list (just one click away).<br>I also fail to see the inspiration from Nintendo101's work on the articles for Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario 3D World; his approach to course listing is actually very elegant and concise, with a reasonable amount of negative space between content as to make navigation comfortable, and not packed with superfluous stuff like audio files or galaxy icons that are not immediately important to someone looking for a chart of levels. That's not to mention the cautious use of images and color coding employed to illustrate each set of levels.<br>That said, I don't intend to remove your edits again. Others have the freedom to voice their opinions, too. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:41, June 12, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::I see media files and their lists as the same way I see images and their galleries; listed all in one place as a secondary option when there's nowhere else to put them. In this case, there ''is'' somewhere else to put them, and unlike most platformers where there can be multiple songs per course depending on what area you're in, the kart tracks are usually pretty consistent with one song per each (aside from sped up versions for lap three, and later games having negligibly different "frontrunning" versions). As for the shots on the courses, I'd ''like'' to have animations of the full track intros showing the different parts of the course's layout as it appears in-game, but I currently have no way to get those and they could be a potential memory bomb having them all there at once, unlike the still images. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:04, June 12, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I'll second Koopa con Carne's comments and add my own commentary. If you're insistent on an "English reads left-to-right" style, why do tables such as [[Mario Superstar Baseball#Characters|this]] not make it possible to read all of a character's info like that on any display except the smallest? And why are the images on some of the tables so huge? The character images in [[Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour#Playable characters|this table]] take up half of my laptop's screen and almost half of my phone's screen. [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 13:55, June 12, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::I haven't gotten to making those ones dynamically sort yet, sorry, I'm only one person; compare how the MK64 character sections work, where depending on your screen/window size, there can be anywhere between 1 and 4 characters per row, which makes it look good on small monitors (no side-scrolling necessary) and wide monitors (less dead space). I plan on making them like that eventually, just give me some time. Then I promise it'll look good on your laptop and phone. Regarding large images, when it comes to artwork or model renders, I think being able to see the details is important, and for screenshots I prefer native res unless they're ''ridiculously'' big - in which case, I try to cut them down by an even amount, like 1/2 or 1/4 (plus, they give more room for listing stats underneath when they're larger). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:04, June 12, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::Alright then, I think I understand now. [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 14:14, June 12, 2024 (EDT)
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| == to confirm ==
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| Are you still okay with me creating these universally applicable templates? I made one for ''Paper Mario'' recipes just now, for example. I just want to make sure I don't get in trouble again. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:58, June 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| :I don't recall taking issue with your templates, in fact [[User talk:Super Mario RPG#Nice job on the spirit and trophy templates!|I praised your contributions in this area]]. The recipe template looks fine to me. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:08, June 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I appreciate the compliment. It's much easier to curate content when there's universally consistent templates all over the site. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 09:07, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| == "This design is bad" ==
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| I'd consider shrunken sprites (inherently a bad thing), rows that have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much whitespace above and below the text due to sharing a row with screenshots, wide tables that deform upon being thinned, and relying on small text rather than easy-to-see images to be immeasurably worse than a table that has a very consistent design across each item, shows things at their intended size while keeping unnecessary dead space to a minimum, and makes it abundantly clear what goes where without having to scroll back up (always a nuisance). I really don't understand why you think otherwise. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:21, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
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| :For the record, I don't really like Waluigi Time's attempt at a compromise either. It was all fine how it was before: courses listed neatly with one screenshot for each, and staff ghosts listed separately in another section. Staff ghost data takes too much space to be crammed like that, to say nothing of the fact that it's only relevant to time trials, meaning it can't be of immediate interest to someone simply looking for a list of courses in a given Mario Kart game. If you view negative space as inherently unnecessary and consider the hoarding of screenshots and media files into reduced spaces to be beneficial, that's fine; I don't, [[Special:Diff/4258273|other users]] [[Special:Diff/4285569|don't]], and so far you have failed tremendously at accepting that you're not the only person benefitting from this site. I also don't care if you've asked "others" off-site for feedback. I won't debate further, because everything I had to say has been said. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:49, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::[[Talk:Mario Kart Wii#Course template|This tells me otherwise]], and that last part just sounds... elitist against people without accounts. (Also, the main reason I moved the ghost info is I tried using it while going for unlocking things before, but it was ''so'' badly organized and differentiated in that separate list I had to search every time for what on my version would have been but a glance). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:57, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::I'm as open as can be to the opinions of people who aren't signed up on Mario Wiki, just not to those of people who are so vaguely invoked they may as well not even exist. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:43, July 3, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Sentence structure for "generic" subjects ==
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| Hey, I know this is a topic you take interest in, so I wanted to direct you to [[MarioWiki talk:Generic subjects#"X appears in Z as a Y" is awkward sentence structure, and I do not understand why we are integrating it|this discussion]] I started. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:40, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Good faith ==
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| Hi, Koopa con Carne. I hope you are doing well.
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| I understand there are a lot of strong personalities on Super Mario Wiki that do not always engage with feedback the way one would want them to. I understand it can be frustrating to see significant changes happen to articles we all share. I also know that English is not your first language and cultural nuances are not always apparent. Additionally, like me, I know you advocate for constructive criticism and that is something we should always promote among each other. That raises all of us up. People fundamentally also should not accept major revisions they do not like just to avoid hurting others' feelings. This is a collaborative space and no one should be strong-arming changes.
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| However, regardless of intent, I do not think one "choses" whether or not they have hurt another person. I may not go as far as calling this a personal "verbal attack" in isolation, but I agree that comments [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_Wii&oldid=4285578 like this one] come across as harsh and not constructive. In context with subsequent remarks on [[#"This design is bad"|your talk page]] that convey you believe Doc von Schmeltwick lied about other people supporting her tables as means to get what she wants, it all comes across as bad faith, unkind, and disrespectful.
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| I cannot speak to specific wiki policies or the actions of other users in the past. ''Mario Kart Wii'' is not the only place I have seen the discourse like this pop up, and there are a number of other users who I think should scrutinize how they engage with their fellow users. I am certainly no saint. But regardless, I really think we should assume well of each other's intents, practice good faith, and respect one another, especially among active users. I think our community and collective contributions would only be better for it. I trust that we all want the wiki to be the best it could be. I hope that all makes sense. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:36, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Consider the fact that 5 years ago, in a time when attitudes on this wiki weren't so different from the ones today and the active userbase was in large part similar, a bureaucrat left [[User_talk:Memoryman3#Last warning|this comment]] on a misbehaving user's talk page:<br>"What you did here is unacceptable: [...] is pouring piss-stained, flea-ridden pig shit on the open wound."<br>The wording in this comment always struck me as incredibly rude, even considering the wanton dishonesty of the user it was addressed to. It is understandable why that user's actions could become frustrating to others, but to address such a bitter and charged criticism, especially from the position of a bureaucrat, in an environment that's supposed to foster collaboration and constructiveness is contrary to those values. '''And yet, nobody raised a hand to object to that language. There was no Nintendo101 to pull Glowsquid aside and tell him "hey, cool it with the graphic descriptions, this isn't a gore website".'''<br>Why, then, does a remark on the perceived poor quality of another user's work, spoken in plain and unambiguous language, suddenly cross the line of what's ok? Let's dissect my comment and see why I do not agree with your assessment that it is unconstructive and made in bad faith:
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| *calling someone's work "bad", as opposed to stronger qualifiers such as "horrible" or "idiotic" (which, let me be clear, is not language I engage with on this wiki) is explicitly encouraged by the fourth point of "Discourteous behavior" at [[MarioWiki:Courtesy]].
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| *"it's extremely crammed and hectic" is merely a description of the design as I saw it. It is not at all far removed, at least in tone, from remarks other users have expressed in that regard, including your own "demanding an unwarranted amount of attention with the information imparted" or LGM's "overloaded with information".
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| *"stop being so protective of your edits, you don't own the material shown here." practically reiterates what section 2 of [[MarioWiki:General disclaimer]] states regarding ownership of the content here and follows an edit that came across as overly forceful and, consequently, discourteous.
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| : I did not condemn Doc's web design prowess, nor did I ask her to "git gud". I am fully conscious that growth cannot occur if you bully and tear apart a person's own being, which is not what's happening here. I strongly believe your reminder exaggerates my statement and I invite you to reconsider your attitude towards bluntness. What I said was direct and not at all veiled in flamboyant and "respectful" language, but it was not hostile and I fully stand by it. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:05, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I do not know enough of the context about the exchange you cite, but I agree the language used seems inappropriate. But that is tangential because, as you said, I was not there for that. I am here for this.
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| ::I think there is some misunderstanding with what the issue is. I at least am not reaching out to you here because of "bluntness." Bluntness is perfectly fine. What bothered me is that the edit summary was, while probably unintentional, was perceived as unkind by the recipient, and when they expressed that to you, you seemed unreceptive. Again, I do not think one gets to choose if they hurt another person's feelings. If it happens, it happens. Some folks have tougher skin than others, you know? And it does not mean one should not be critical or blunt, just a little receptive to other's feelings. That is not an unreasonable thing to recommend.
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| ::For context, I think you can understand that folks have a lot of personal investment and attachment to the projects they create, especially if they are big time commitments. On some level they are extensions of the creator's themselves. So even if unintentional, when a user hears that their work is objectively bad, that can be internalized as a criticism of themselves. Even if you think it should not be like that, I think you can conceptually understand how that can happen.
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| ::The [[#"This design is bad"|implication]] that another active user was intentionally being deceitful and manipulative legitimately bothers me though. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:06, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::There was nothing offensive in my message. Truthfully, I'm sympathetic to the experiences Doc has undergone--I still find myself pouring effort into actions that I fear may be misguided--but it's also true that these experiences are irrelevant to this project's development and that there are people who genuinely won't care. One shouldn't have to traipse this carefully around a community's ethos to be able to formulate an opinion. [https://www.marioboards.com/threads/38172/#post-1916073 Quoth Ray Trace], "If contributors can't deal with criticism with other editors, which can sometimes forgo a little bit of courtesy for uesfulness, then they are simply not fit to be wiki editors." This was a rude awakening for me, though something I can only nod to in agreement as I look back. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:56, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::I can say there is little wisdom in quoting an out-of-context forum post I made 7 years ago. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:20, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::I'm quoting it because it's a good perspective to have. If you have since changed your perspective, that's not my problem. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 03:05, July 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::I am not sure I agree with the Ray Trace of 2017, but I do not think they would either. None of us are the same people we were yesterday, let alone 2017.
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| ::::I think we have all been in a position where we have invested a lot of effort and passion into a project, only for it to not be received well. Not a fun time - but how I personally come out of such scenarios and the quality of my work going forward is often dependent on what and how I am told, and by who. Your comments in particular are probably given more weight than the average user since you are so active and generally do good-quality work. That is part of the reason why I reached out to you, with the hope that you would be a little bit receptive. Those are all just my two cents, anyways. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:49, July 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| == MKDS ==
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| Okay, I reverted all of the affected pages. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 17:56, August 1, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Everything else you did was great, though. Mario Kart course articles have this awkward sectioning where the "Layout" section is exclusively reserved for the course's original appearance, with the rest of its appearances being treated in different sections named after the relevant game. Your new layout changes fixed that. Also the application of the "cite" template, but that's needless to say. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:05, August 1, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::I appreciate you liking that. The course pages all have this issue with redundancy where the classic courses say "this is the second course in Banana Cup" twice or something like that. So how would you suggest I implement the changes, then? I'm reapplying the Cite template to the pages as we speak. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 18:09, August 1, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::Especially when a page houses large volumes of information about a subject, infoboxes are, foremost, designed to provide an easily digestible, often bulleted summary of that information. Through infoboxes, articles employ a degree of repetition that serves to drive a point to an audience. In the case of a Mario Kart course, knowing which cup it is found in can be considered a priority as readers attempt to engage with that course during gameplay, so that information is essential enough that it should exist in the infobox in addition to the article's more elaborate presentation of that course. This does not, in my opinion, befit the qualifier of "redundant", which defines a thing that is viewed as unnecessary in the given circumstances. On the other hand, the MKDS course template cannibalizes the infobox in the way of summarizing the most important points of a course's DS appearance, and the addition of aspects such as sponsors and Mission Mode levels strike me as an attempt to justify the existence of that template without even being the kind of content one looks for in "Profiles and statistics" sections. For the record, my understanding of "profiles" for the purposes of this wiki includes insights into a subject as originally provided in official works; this includes any sort of official descriptions, discretely assigned to a subject or not.<br>Speaking of, I'd like to also address why I don't think it's appropriate to move those "top-tier drivers" sections to the lists of profiles. I'll use an example: the reason [[Rose Queen]] has a list of favored courses in the "Profiles" section whereas [[DS Airship Fortress]] has its favored drivers in the article's body is because the former pretty much just mirrors the kart's profile that can be accessed in-game, whereas the latter is the Mario Wiki editor's interpretation of data derived from such profiles from the perspective of a single course. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:43, August 1, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::Yeah, so one problem I had is that I wanted to cleanly put everything that is defined within the game itself as a variable. For example, the game decides which sponsors are on the trackside banners, which cup a course is in, which missions it's part of, which obstacles are placed, and so forth. But I can see how that could get tricky and not fit into the mold of either word. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 18:59, August 1, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Citation needed for Mario's name ==
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| Concerning this edit.[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=List_of_Mario_names_in_other_languages&diff=4340532&oldid=4340514] While I understand it's better safe than sorry to have a source to confirm that Mario's name in another language hasn't changed, the proposal[https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Require_citations_for_names_in_other_languages] was more likely created for instances where verification is much more important, particularly for more minor naming schemes from the ''Mario'' series. It's unreasonable to outline every single instance where you need add a citation needed or not, so I recommend to apply more discretion to names you believe need a citation. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:51, September 3, 2024 (EDT)
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| :I'd like to add that even if this were for a minor character, the foreign names template has been updated to automatically show that references are needed (see the new category at the bottom of the page, "Articles with unsourced foreign names"). You simply don't need to add [reference needed] for unsourced names now, as it is redundant. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 21:04, September 3, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Proposal said this, without any further stipulations:<br>”As such, I believe it should be made mandatory for every name listed in the names in other languages sections to have a citation attached to it.”<br>My edit is, in fact, in line with the proposal. There’s nothing even implied there about practising discretion. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 02:06, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::KCC's right, he even brought up this specific scenario in the proposal comments, and no one bothered to clarify what to do in cases like this. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:55, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Zelda ==
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| Hi, KCC. I'm not sure you have noticed, but I have been drafting a "crossover article" concept using ''The Legend of Zelda'' as a base, highlighting where it intersects with ''Super Mario''. I thought about it as the proposals involving ''Smash Bros.'' material has come and go, and I think it has the potential to be a more serviceable consolidation of information otherwise scattered across the wiki. It's still in an early stage, but I wanted to know what you think. It can be found [[User:Nintendo101/community garden|here]]. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 10:42, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
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| :I saw your next opus, rest assured. Not being big on Zelda (the BotW duology being the only two games in the series I enjoyed enough to beat), I can't make comments on the accuracy of the information, but I expect nothing short of the highest level of attention from you, honestly. I think it's clear even to me, though, how deeply wound around the Zelda and Mario series are at the roots and why that facilitates an entire article discussing their creative kinship. Nothing I can add except that the effort is tremendous and that you're bringing a much needed topic for the wiki to cover. You have a gift. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:31, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Actually, maybe you could place the key artwork in the Smash Bros sections over to the right of the page? As they are now, they fracture the lists seen beside. I understand that you probably made the current choice so you'd make the article less monotonous to look at, but I feel like the presence of two images in the first ''Super Smash Bros.'' section already helps break that monotony. I dunno, just a small suggestion that's prolly not much important in ensemble. Regardless, good call to visually highlight Zelda elements standing alongside Mario elements. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:37, September 15, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Discourtesy warning ==
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| {{warning|reason=discourteous behavior with other users}}
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| There have been recurring instances where you have made rude remarks to other users and promoted bad-faith discourse, whether intentional or not, and have not adjusted your behavior despite indications from staff. These are in violation of our policies on [[MarioWiki:Courtesy|courtesy]], and warranted this warning. Some examples include:
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| * [https://www.mariowiki.com/Special:MobileDiff/4309331 Here], where you dismiss Doc von Schmeltwick's table ideas and [[#"This design is bad"|implied]] that she was lying about some of the remarks she made, which is bad faith. When subsequently raised by staff, you did not concede even though you were approached in good faith. In related discussions on the [[Talk:Mario Kart Wii#Decide how to present courses|Mario Kart Wii talk page]], you invoked posts from another user made over 7 years prior to undermine their current position, which breaks our policy on not “hold[ing] old offenses against an otherwise good user.”
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| * [https://www.mariowiki.com/Special:MobileDiff/4355024 Here], where you called Nintendo101’s behavior "sanctimonious and annoying". The choice of words is derogatory and breaks the rule where you are not supposed to “tell admins what to do.”
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| * In a proposal, you called one of Glowsquid's responses "pedantic and with a dishonest premise," which is bad-faith and discourteous behavior. Glowsquid responded to that [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals&diff=prev&oldid=4210401 here]. This is a particularly recurring pattern of behavior.
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| * Finally, on the recent Preying Mantas proposal, you said [https://www.mariowiki.com/Special:MobileDiff/4366752 this]. While you did eventually apologize for some of the language used, the ultimate assertion that the user you were replying to was being discriminatory and jingoistic remains. That is incredibly bad faith and discourteous to someone as active and participatory as Ray Trace.
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| Those are just some examples. This has been going on for a while without any reminder/warning from staff because of your generally substantive contributions to the wiki, but this cannot go on. Please take this warning seriously and be more mindful going forward when engaging with other users, especially in proposals. Please assume good faith in users. {{User:Sparks/sig}} 10:11, September 16, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Ah, well. I accept my warning. I'm not one to hold back on displaying my views and beliefs, but I understand that this is not the place to do it with such openness and honesty.<br>Just want to comment on a few things:
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| *“hold[ing] old offenses against an otherwise good user.” Evoking another user's comment, that I agree with, and asking for explanations as to why they changed their view, isn't revisiting an old offense. Because that was no offense.
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| *"The choice of words [...] breaks the rule where you are not supposed to 'tell admins what to do.'" Like the previous rule that forbid users from appealing admin warnings, this one should go. Mario Wiki admins aren't infallible gods. They're users with a few more responsibilities than others. Pretty much as human, otherwise. Maybe N101 had the right call to remind me of my behavior, but I disagree that I shouldn't be able to give feedback if I consider that comment transgressive for whatever reason. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:11, September 16, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Hey just letting you know that I'm glad you took the warning well and I'm thankful for the apology you gave, don't let this stop you from contributing to the wiki. By the way coincidentally, we discussing that we also don't really like the "undermining admin authority" or "telling admins what to do" rule either, because this should extend to all users, not just admins; it's just general rude behavior that should be universally discouraged. As for the old comment I made all the way back in 2017, that was 7 years ago, and it's out-of-context (some editors can deal with more harsh criticism than others, etc. it's a bit nuanced, I might say this in relation to like, maybe editors I know or editors who are willingly arrogant and obtuse vs people who are new and learning); what I mean from that, yes, you should take negative feedback, sometimes yes, forgoing a little bit of courtesy to get the point across, but I also don't mean be way too blunt to the point where you're rude for the sake of it. I still agree to prioritize useful feedback, but that doesn't mean go all out rude on people. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 19:48, September 16, 2024 (EDT)
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| {{@|Ray Trace}} I'm sorry for the late response, I'm away from my PC.<br>I appreciate that you clarified the meaning behind said 7-year-old comment and how it compares to your views nowadays.<br>Regarding the response on [[Talk:Preying Mantas]] that got the warning rolling: I want to make it clear that the "lol you're patriotic" claim was no more than a cringeworthy joke. I like keeping discussions light-hearted, which is in the spirit of this community, but this time, my joke absolutely didn't land, and I once again apologize for it. I did not believe one second that you have such predilections.<br>The argument that I was quick to name "discriminatory" did genuinely rub me the wrong way; however, I am aware of the greatly negative societal meaning this word carries and how its use gutted whatever point I was trying to make regarding the relation between readers of this site and some cartoon jellyfish. For the sake of assuring you that my underlying point carried no malice (and not necessarily to take that discussion here and divert the one already present), I feel inclined to say this: I still strongly believe that "we speak X language, therefore the information communicated in that language is always the more correct one" is simply not the stance an encyclopedia should take; it relies on sources that, in discussing something with basis in someone's imagination, do not have an obligation to stay true to what is established, previously or presently, among other sources, sometimes more authoritative. And, yes, it also carries a quality that I find ''off''--the wiki treats a multinational franchise, like I called it, so it should respect the perspectives readers from other nations come here with off of their experiences with the franchise, or, rather, not prioritize one perspective on lingual grounds. I'd like to make it very clear that I don't humor the "Japanese sources are the end all, be all" line of thought either. It's complicated. I foresee more opportunities to discuss this subject, but I don't want you to feel forced to respond to this topic here (though you're obviously free to do as you wish). {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:49, September 18, 2024 (EDT)
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| ==Re:Jungle Beat guidebook==
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| Right, that old thing. No, I'm not the source of that guide, nor is it one of the ones I have a copy of. The Imgur uploader went under the name "[https://imgur.com/user/manspeed manspeed]" (though here, he was presumably {{user|Vent}}). He is the same person who uploaded the ''Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten'' [https://imgur.com/a/UvABP album] and several key parts of the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' series guides, ''Super Mario RPG'' ASCII, ''Donkey Kong Country'' trading cards, etc. From my understanding, he did not like the attention his uploads were getting, so he privated it. Maybe he had his reasons, like being in the wrong jurisdiction. I don't know. Whatever the case, he's been inactive. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:30, September 16, 2024 (EDT)
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| == United Nations Plaza ==
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| Hi, since you're similarly careful over the treatment of real-life subjects, I came to ask if you think I handled the [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=United_Nations_Plaza&diff=4369551&oldid=4364384 United Nations Plaza] edit appropriately, since I want to be careful of overlap between real-life subjects as they exist in real life versus fictional media like ''Super Mario'', and one of the stock photos was being treated as a depiction of it in ''CD-ROM Deluxe'' when it's actually a stock photo used in the game. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 06:21, September 19, 2024 (EDT)
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| {{@|Super Mario RPG}} I'm so sorry for the late response.<br>I'd like to state that this and other responses I gave to you with regard to the wiki's treatment of the so-called "generic subjects" is all just my opinion. It could be bollocks. If you wish to read more perspectives on the topic, I would also ask someone similarly involved with it, like Nintendo101.<br>I like that the caption of the photograph specifies that it is a stock photo. This is how I would have handled it myself. However, I do not agree with the changes you made to the opening paragraph. I assume it was an attempt to apply the same principle used for real-life generic subjects, where the first sentence omits an explanation on the nature of the subject since it's expected that readers already know what it is (see [[apple]], [[grape]], [[whale]], [[frog]]). But the thing is, '''not all real-world subjects are generic'''. A monument (such as the United Nations Plaza) or a historical figure from our reality that finds its way in a fictional work cannot be assumed to be known by everyone, so it's sensible to put a short description on the thing to bring everyone who reads its Mario Wiki article up to speed.<br>Even then, you didn't go all the way through. The presentation of the monument is still there, it's just placed after it is stated to appear in a Mario game. As it stands, the edit simply swaps two pieces of syntax in the opening for seemingly no reason; imagine, if you will, how such phrasing would fare in the opening statement of a proper Mario-related subject, like Goomba:<blockquote>'''Goombas''', initially called '''Little Goombas''', appear in the Super Mario franchise. They are one of the major species of this franchise, being small, brown, mushroom-like creatures with two feet [...]</blockquote>Sounds kinda weird, innit? If you can assume that some or perhaps most readers do not know about a subject, or come to this wiki to learn about said subject, tell 'em what it is first. Grapes and apples are an exception and don't need a refresher (I don't believe they are exotic to anyone, even in places where they don't occur naturally), but something like the United Nations Plaza benefits from an introduction. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 08:39, September 26, 2024 (EDT)
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