Talk:Ice Piranha Plant

Okay, seriously, in which levels the Venus Ice Traps appear? Seems to me they are available in Rock-Candy Mines.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 00:26, 14 December 2012 (EST)

in the Fuzzy's Clifftop level, indeed of Rock-Candy Mines.--Marioyoshi (talk) 17:13, 14 December 2012 (EST)

Thanks man.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 18:31, 14 December 2012 (EST)

Cool Trivia

These Plants appeared on Fantendo, and were made due to fan demand, i know this for a fact can i put it one the article.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

Fantendo isn't official, so that fact has no place in the article. World10 (talk) 11:50, 20 December 2012 (EST)

No, it was made there, then nintedo was DEMANDED (i know this for a FACT) to make it due to i being thought as i brilliant idea. i see your angle, but it is official. it only originated there.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

FANTENDO MATTER

ok, although the fact sound fake due to the words FANTENDO, it is real so i am adding it again, please tell me why you deleted it if you do.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

I haven't deleted it, but please, stop writing "(don't delete this please)" on the article ! Don't write commentary on any article.
Banon (talk · edits) 13:22, 20 December 2012 (EST)

OK, I AM SO SORRY AND I WASN'T THINKING! I HAD A FIGHT FOR MY GOOMBRAT TRIVIA AND I WENT A BIT CRAZY (sorry for Cap lock)
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

Ok, i put more which makes it should better. it is real and do not delete. i cannot put a source as they are hand written letters.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

LOOK HERE IT IS, I'M A TRUE-SPEAKER=

SORRY for taking over this page, but this is real stop deleting the Origin part ok, maybe put in trivia, but it is real and important.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

This Wiki does not cover Fantendo. Don't add anything about Fantendo.--Revenge Of Kurbio 13:35, 20 December 2012 (EST)

No you don't get it, i an leave that out, but they were added due to fan demand, they found it out on Fantendo. I can not mention it and just say "They were added because fans wanted an ice breathing venus fire trap and wrote letters to Nintendo about it".

it is an important fact so it should be here.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

No.--Revenge Of Kurbio 13:39, 20 December 2012 (EST)

but it is very very important, can't you just except it like nintendo did.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

This is the Super Mario Wiki. The Super Mario Wiki only covers official matters on the topic of the Mario series. Content from Fantendo or otherwise fan-created content do not belong here. If you can find official information about the matter, provide it and add it to the article, it would only be official and canotial information. But you cannot include fan-created material in articles, for they are neither canon nor official. RandomYoshi^{(Talk • PMs • C)} 13:44, 20 December 2012 (EST)

It's not allowed on this Wiki.--Revenge Of Kurbio 13:45, 20 December 2012 (EST)

i know as i was one of those fans and Nintendo replied saying they will and other fans have asked this.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

Should i make a website saying this then add a link to it. theres your proof.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

But it's not allowed. It's not official. Don't add it.--Revenge Of Kurbio 13:51, 20 December 2012 (EST)

What exactly do you mean? Do you mean that you are part of Nintendo staff? Because if you are, I have a serious difficulty in believing that piece of information.

Again, fan-created material is not allowed on this wiki, nor is it allowed as a source or a reference, for it is not official. And no matter how much you would like that to change, it just will not change, because if it did, our articles would look atrocious.

Who are you, anyway? Some person from Fantendo who just wants to insert false information into articles? If so, I think that is a bad idea and you should probably stop with it before you get into any serious trouble. RandomYoshi^{(Talk • PMs • C)} 13:54, 20 December 2012 (EST)

I think what the anon's saying is that the enemy was put in NSMBU because of some Fantendo page (which would be worthy information in the non-existent chance that it's true), though somehow I don't think the radical idea of swapping the projectile of an already-existing enemy is something that would've never crossed the game's creative team until an obscure fansite told them it would be teh awsum . --Glowsquid (talk) 13:58, 20 December 2012 (EST)

the apology

Sorry about not replying,(i was having dinner) i am not part of Fantendo and i do not wan't to harm to wiki in any way. I though this was good information. don't say it is a "non-existent" chance as it wrote it to nintendo. I don't want to add bad information. I thought i would be nice for everyone to know and i can't believe that it was such a big deal. I'm sorry for any problems and i would like to say that I wanted this enemy and gave them the idea. I can see how they could have come up with on their own, but i asked them.

If anon is an insult then i demand an apology, if it mean "person with no account", then may i be told. sorry for any trouble and I won't add it again, unless i am given permission by you Guys.

To be honest, I think it is quit cool how I was noticed by so many people.

oh and Random Yoshi, I'm not out to destroy the wiki's valuable content, i don't have an account on MarioWiki and have nothing to do with Fantendo but looking at some of the games and promoting their Venus ice Trap idea to Nintendo.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

Alittle bit of SECOND THOUGHTS

actually i think this is major information and if i am not stopped by Friday (tomorrow) morning, I will re-add it! I am ok with i being deleted again AS LONG AS it is explained why.

I'm not telling lies and I really think it should be said. Please don't ban me as I just think it is major stuff.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

Oh, come on! Read the rules!--Revenge Of Kurbio 16:00, 20 December 2012 (EST)

Ok, i have come to the conclusion Mario Wiki does not what to know the origin of a creature if it includes fans, however it would be interesting: like how Miyamoto came up with the Chain Chomp.

Fantendo

I know Fantendo is unofficial, but it appears that there has been a Venus Ice Trap article on this wiki since 30/04/2010. The anon above me is probably telling the truth, and maybe we should say somewhere in the article they come from Fantendo people's letters. To whoever that wants to tell me we can't because it's unofficial, I suggest you to look at this.
Banon (talk · edits) 09:31, 22 May 2013 (EDT)

Actually, it's probably coincidental. I don't know if we can check the accuracy of what the anon said.
Banon (talk · edits) 19:08, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

Is there any source that Nintendo actually received the letters and acknowledged them, because they probably get loads of letters about possible enemy ideas. Yoshi876 (talk)

If you look at the History Section Of Fantendo's venus ice trap, you can clearly see that it was created Before New super Mario bros U (the article was created on april 30th, 2010, NSMBU on December 8th, 2012. not even the wii U was created back then) Koopinator

However, Fantendo's Venus ice trap looks NOTHING like NSMBU's Venus ice trap (talk).

Potential to merge with Frost Piranha

Anyone know the Japanese name of this? I'd like to propose a merge of this to Frost Piranha, as well as Poison Piranha Plant to Putrid Piranha, but first I need to know this guy's Japanese name, and whether it's the same. It should be in a guide somewhere. As for Poison, that'll probably have to wait until any Japanese guides for Odyssey come out. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:06, 28 August 2017 (CT)

According to Mister Wu (#7), Ice Piranha Plant has an identical name to Frost Piranha, though I'm not sure which page of Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. it's in. It seems to be the same thing; while Frost Piranhas usually have frost breath instead of ice balls, Fire Piranhas, their elemental opposites, also have a similar fiery breath attack move in the Paper Mario series. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:20, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

I wouldn't support merging them. Beyond vaguely having ice abilities, they have different appearances, different abilities, and different names in English. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 14:29, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

Then for the sake of consistency, should the Sticker Star Fire Piranha be split from Fire Piranha Plant? The breath-like form of their attacks are pretty similar. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:50, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

The Fire Piranha Plants share a name and appearance, as well as some of the abilities of their platform brethren. Just having the same name is not enough for me to be convinced. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 14:54, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

Prima Games is somewhat known for having an odd few names that differ from other sources - which is fine since they're an official licensee and a handful of cases like Scorchit and Klamber are much preferable to NOA's naming, but still, that's precisely how we ended up having another King Bill. If we're splitting based on movesets, then would that mean "Frost Piranha (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)" should be its own article since it lacks its normal icy breath and only physically bites in that appearance? Another thing is that Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U partially supports the notion of Frost/Ice being the same right in the Piranha Plant trophy, since the North American description mentions a Frost variety yet doesn't mention the Ice variation - and oddly enough, both the Japanese version and PAL translation don't mention it at all, so if our English localization wanted to distinguish between the two, they would've done so then very easily. (Also, I want to add again that Gritty Goomba might soon potentially be a dated example in light of the new version of Superstar Saga.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:25, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

nope. it acts diiferent and why would it be? why would reappear if it debuted in a RPG? TYC

By that token, Ice Flowers debuted in an RPG, and it became a fairly major item. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:50, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

I support the merge, because I want to see an end to this debate. Similar to Red Magikoopa, Green Magikoopa, Yellow Magikoopas, White Magikoopa, Koopatrols, and other Bowser minions that appeared outside of the Paper Mario world, it would seem natural for the Frost Piranha/Ice Piranha Plant to do the same, since they share the same Japanese name. And given how Virdi, one of the enemies of the VA, mentions Frost Piranha and leaves out Ice Piranha Plant, yet mentions Piranha Pod, it makes sense. And I've seen this discussion mention the Gritty Goomba situation, which is now out of date due to the one in Gwahar Lagoon being Elite Gritty Goomba. So do the merge and put a stop to any doubt bout this Bowser minion.--Hamshamcart (talk) 09:50, 8 February 2019 (EST)

As mentioned here, Viridi mentions nearly all the variations of Piranha Plants in the guidance for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, which includes Frost Piranhas but not Ice Piranhas. This makes it the second or third Smash Bros. game in a row to mention Frost Piranha over Ice Piranha, supporting them being the same. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:59, 8 February 2019 (EST)

Nope, i'd prefer to avoid any potential speculation. -- FanOfYoshi 12:13, 9 February 2019 (EST)

"But have the same Japanese name" isn't enough of an argument to use by itself. Plus there's no solid evidence that they are the same thing. It also does not mention the Fire P-Pakkun, nor does it for the Tane Pakkun. It'll avoid speculation altogether, unlike merging. -- FanOfYoshi 13:12, May 1, 2019 (EDT)

They also are both Piranha Plants that breath ice. I don't see what the problem is. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:30, May 1, 2019 (EDT)

How they act would be the problem, but it's a minor issue. Frost Piranha's came first, coming out 12 years before Ice Piranhas did, so the traditional variant could possibly be based on the paper one. Coloration aside, one spits ice balls and the other spews ice breath. But they are still ice-based Piranha Plants, so I see no issue with having them together. 13:42, May 1, 2019 (EDT)

We have been over this with Chancellor and Toad Minister, Wilt Shroom and Dried Shroom. Just because the Japanese name is identical doesn't make for a merged page. -- FanOfYoshi 13:26, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

It wouldn't need a proposal, but, if it does, i'd oppose. -- FanOfYoshi 13:38, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

I don't care what you'd do. These are officially the same thing, hence why it was only listed once in that rather exhaustive list (even discounting the obvious fact that they edited the list from the Japanese wikipedia, they edited enough to show that they knew what they were doing). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:44, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

For anyone who wants to see a solid opinion on why this merge should not happen as of right now, see no further than this proposal. Yes, I know I opposed it then, but my opinions on the matter have completely reversed. The situation here is the same as it was there: both enemies are variations of another enemy, both have ice-based abilities, and both have identical names in certain languages but not in others. And yet here's the problem: Ice Piranha Plants literally look exactly the same as regular Piranha Plants (likely because the developers were trying to be consistent with Fire Piranha Plants), whereas Frost Piranhas have a completely different color scheme. They didn't even have the same color stalk until Super Paper Mario, but still retain their color scheme and don't resemble the New Super Mario Bros. U enemy well enough in my opinion. It's also worth noting that both of the aforementioned games released five years apart and that Ice Piranha Plant has the more directly translated name, so I don't think the developers of New Super Mario Bros. U were intentionally trying to reference the Paper Mario series when they introduced the Ice Piranha Plant.

Also, by this logic, Poison Piranha Plant would be merged with Putrid Piranha, which would make even less sense for roughly the same reasons. ^(T|C) 21:38, December 25, 2019 (EST)

A couple of things there. First, the Ice Snifit situation is likely the result of “transcreation” (as described in that link; something I briefly hinted at but didn't go further since I didn't know a name for that practice at the time). The color scheme difference doesn't really hold water when the design of a Fire Piranha Plant has also been known to change at will, and as you say, it was likely made uniform for the purpose of matching it for the game. Poison Piranha Plant and Putrid Piranha would absolutely not be merged with the same argument because Super Smash Bros. Ultimate lists them separately (unlike Ice Piranha Plant, which still remains exclusive to the New Super Mario Bros. U Prima guide despite Frost Piranha being repeatedly mentioned). The only reason to keep them split at this point is because they have different attacks (with Frost Piranhas having misty frost breath and Ice Piranha Plants spitting solid ice balls), except the same difference also exists with the Paper Mario Lava Piranha and Sticker Star Fire Piranha in battle so that case is clearly a platformer/RPG behavioral difference. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:01, December 26, 2019 (EST)

Yeah, I just feel that the evidence on both sides is just too shallow to change anything right now. Though Fire Piranha Plants have indeed had their design changed on-and-off for inexplicable reasons, it's difficult to apply that same logic to Ice Piranha Plants and Frost Piranhas due to how very few games they appear in. Furthermore, it's apparent to me that certain localizations, especially the Super Smash Bros. series, can be relatively unreliable when it comes to whether they transcreated names or not, especially since Ultimate also never mentions two other related species of Piranha Plant, as was already brought up.

In the end, I think it would just be better we wait until there's more solid evidence to work with, since everything we have so far appears to be too circumstantial or speculative to pass off as acceptable. ^(T|C) 16:43, December 26, 2019 (EST)

The change for Fire Piranha Plant's color is less "inexplicable" than you think, actually: In most games, Piranhas and Fire Piranhas can be told apart at a glance due to difference in stance. In SM3DL and SM3DW, they have the same stance, so they use color to differentiate them instead. The ice thing is the same type of thing, since it was initially a recolor of Putrid Piranha, then later the "normal" Piranha Plants, "pale" or otherwise, with the NSMBU one having the stance difference. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:13, December 26, 2019 (EST)

There is solid evidence that was overlooked. And I quote from the Japanese Wikipedia article on the Piranha Plant: "Appeared in "Mario Story". Pac-n's flower that lives on a cold stage. It basically exhales ice, but in Paper Mario RPG it has the same effect as a normal bite attack. At first it was an enemy that I could step on. In "Mario Story", the HP was inferior to Poison Pack, but in "Paper Mario RPG", the HP was higher than Poison Pack. The body is blue. In " New Super Mario Bros. U ", a pack of flowers that spits ice. The nature is almost the same as Fire Pack, and the body color is the same as the conventional Pack." So, this should hopefully let the merge happen, and another enemy from the Paper Mario universe would be confirmed to appear outside of said universe.--Pyroman99 (talk) 17:27, July 5, 2020 (EDT)

JP Wikipedia ain't the best source even though the makers of the SSBU list clearly used it and while I firmly believe these should be merged, this Google Translated paragraph isn't evidence at all. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:39, July 5, 2020 (EDT)

Looks like yet another "unnecessarily dashing" interpretation of the situation by a Hamshamcart sock... What Doc said. I also stand by my previous comment on this issue six months ago of there being too little evidence to change anything right now. ^(T|C) 13:32, July 8, 2020 (EDT)

Yes, the JP Wikipedia is not the best source, but アイスパックン (Frost Piranha / Ice Piranha Plant), is still the same any way people slice at it. If the Japanese guides for the first 3 Paper Mario games before the Great Modern Update (Despite its flaws) and New Super Mario Bros. U have the name, which they most likely do, then the issue 7 months ago will finally be put to an end. There's still enough time in the world to do it. --Somberonip99 (talk) 19:18, August 3, 2020 (EDT)

Again, that's not good enough as evidence. We need more definitive proof than that. ^(T|C) 19:21, August 3, 2020 (EDT)

I do not think this is a good idea as both enemies are completely different. User:Matthew aka Mario 8:05, May 15, 2021

Both enemies are also found in completely different genres. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:07, May 15, 2021 (EDT)

Simply saying, they are different things. We only use Japanese names if there is no English name for the article that is not provided by the Super Mario Encyclopedia. In this case, Frost Piranha has an English name from the Paper Mario battle selection thing. Ice Piranha Plants were named from the Prima official game guide, which is NOT the Super Mario Encyclopedia. As you can see, they are obviously different. I’ll put a proposal so this can be settled. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)

The recent English Mario Portal calls Ice Piranha Plant "Frost Piranha". LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:09, August 13, 2022 (EDT)

In that case, I'd say start a new proposal to ensure that everyone is on board with the merge. After all, official sources can make mistakes at times. ^(T|C) 11:27, August 13, 2022 (EDT)

Japanese Name

Both the Frost Piranha and Ice Piranha Plant have the same Japanese name, Ice Piranha. This also applies to the Putrid Piranha and Poison Piranha Plant. Their Japanese name is Poison Piranha.

-CBFan5

Except no, the JP names for Putrid and Poison are not identical, they're merely synonyms with one using an English loanword. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:22, March 29, 2020 (EDT)

Proposal…

canceled by proposer

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

This is the proposal to settle the above discussion.

Proposer: OhoJeeOnFire (talk)
Deadline: December 1, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Merge

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) That logic is like saying that Fire Piranha Plant and Venus Fire Trap are different things. Inconsistent localizations happen fairly often, especially when unrelated sources are considered. Ultimate's list only contains the one while not skipping any from any other game to have a debut listed (and has others for both PM (Putrid Piranha) and NSMBU (Piranha Pod)), so all official evidence points to them being the same, even if the NSMBU enemy wasn't conceptually inspired by the PM one (which we don't know either way, but can be compared with how we handle certain unrelated "big" enemies, not to mention a certain other enemy seemingly retconned into being the same as a more-or-less identical separate one). Anyways, per me before.
2. LinkTheLefty (talk) You're the doc, Doc. I'll add that Frost Piranha in the earlier Paper Mario games and Fire Piranha in the later ones have very similar attacks, making them analogous to their platformer counterparts, and coloration isn't a consistent trait of Fire Piranha as of late either, depending on genre. Also, Super Smash Bros. technically had not just one, but -three- chances to mention Ice Piranha Plant, as the American English version of Piranha Plant's trophy in the Nintendo 3DS / Wii U games added a reference to Frost Piranha that wasn't in the British English or Japanese versions.
3. Niiue (talk) Per all.
4. Blinker (talk) Per all.

Keep Split

1. OhoJeeOnFire (talk) As explained above, they are clearly different things. Also, they clearly have different actions. Ice piranha plants shoot ice balls, and frost piranhas don’t. It’s kind of like saying that Shrooblets and Beanies are variants of each other when they actually are variants of Goombas, not each other.
2. Tails777 (talk) I have always opposed the "Same Japanese name = same subject" argument; I disagreed with merging Pale Piranha to Piranha Plant and I still do. Additionally, this has also been on my mind for a while and it's nothing more than just my opinion on something I probably don't fully understand, but to say one topic is intended to be the same as another topic based on the Japanese name being the same is still speculation. None of us were there when the games were localized, none of us were there when the games were developed, none of us can fully prove these things are intended to be the same. While I still disagree with it, I can kinda understand Pale Piranha's situation, as it's literally only one language that seems to indicate that it could be something different, while every other translation suggests otherwise. But for the case of only the Japanese name being similar, I still think it's taking a guess. I know next to nothing about the Japanese language or how it's translated into English so this is coming from someone with a very basic and simple opinion, but that's just what I personally believe. So per all the opposing comments in the previous discussion.
3. Hewer (talk) Different Piranha Plant varieties that happen to share ice abilities and names in certain languages; I don't see how this situation is any different from the Ice Snifit situation. Unless we're merging those (which I'd also oppose), these would have to stay split for consistency. The list in Ultimate only having one I think was more likely just so that the Japanese version didn't say the same name twice than a covert hint that they're the same species (note that the list says Frost Piranha even though the name Ice Piranha Plant is more recent). Also, per Tails777.
4. Swallow (talk) I would like to see more concrete evidence that these were definitely meant to be the same subject than just the Japanese name (which could possibly be coincidental). Per all.
5. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all, and my initial thoughts.
6. Archivist Toadette (talk) Don't jump the gun if you don't have enough compelling evidence. PLEASE.
7. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.

Comments

Is there a precedent or something for merging things that are essentially the same concept, and share the same name, but were probably come up with independently of each other? Blinker (talk) 17:12, November 18, 2021 (EST)

Many of our big (and sometimes small)-sized enemies come to mind, as that characteristic is self-explanatory. OhoJeeOnFire, why make the proposal if you oppose it? LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:26, November 18, 2021 (EST)

”why make the proposal if you oppose it?” I mean, that also happened with King Boo from Sunshine. Somethingone (talk) 18:03, November 18, 2021 (EST)

Somethingone is 100% correct. I only made this proposal because there was an argument from the preceding section. I stated all my reasons and, according to those reasons, I made my vote. To sum it up, I only made this proposal because I thought nobody else had the time to do it. Looking at the proposal page, I specifically put “Either MERGE OR SPLIT!” MERGE OR SPLIT!! I believe this is enough for anyone to understand. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)

Usually, you want to pitch why your proposal should pass. It's really not a big deal, just unusual. To add onto enemy sizes and Doc's Grinder/Ukkiki/Ukiki example - another one that comes to mind is that Missile Bill/Bull's-Eye Bill almost certainly contains a few incidental appearances as well, but after much discussion, the current article is deemed pragmatic. @Tails777: I'm not going to get too much into that here, but I will say that your characterization of the argument as "Same Japanese name = same subject" is oversimplified - there are many cases where the foreign name is shared with wholly dissimilar subjects (etc.), but I guarantee no one is going to be proposing those merges. Your line of reasoning would have kept Piranhacus Giganticus separated indefinitely. Additionally, it's hard to deny that Pale Piranha's treatment is at least consistent with Cleft's in the same game. @Hewer: Ice Snifit is, I feel, inconsistent with Pyro Guy and Spear Guy in another RPG, but that is an entirely different discussion. Regardless of our feelings, I wouldn't say that is at all very comparable to Frost Piranha, which has had multiple appearances (and which, by the way, had its own evolution to look more like a regular Piranha Plant over time). Also, Prima's latest name for Big Piranha Plant is Mega Piranha Plant. @OhoJeeOnFire: Again, Fire Piranha demonstrates a very similar move as of Paper Mario: Sticker Star, even though Frost Piranha itself hasn't reappeared yet since the general enemy designs were updated in that game. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:25, November 19, 2021 (EST)

I don't quite see how Frost Piranha being in multiple games changes anything, and saying that its appearance changed overtime to be like a regular Piranha Plant for NSMBU boils down to just speculation. Until there's an official source telling us these two are the same (which I don't consider the Japanese names to be, since as you demonstrated, many different things share Japanese names), merging these would be based purely on guesswork, so I feel separating them makes more sense. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:39, November 19, 2021 (EST)

Ultimate only listing one while (as LTL pointed out on the Pale proposal) not skipping any other Piranha from any game debut including in the list (having both Putrid and Pod) and doing so across languages seems like pretty clear-cut indication there is official consideration they are the same, while conversely, no official listing has ever considered them separate. As for your "more recent" comment, that's irrelevant as one was in-game and one was from the same people who'd previously called Sledge Bro as Sumo Bro. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:11, November 19, 2021 (EST)

To me, this is like trying to merge Putrid Piranha and Poison Piranha Plant because their names translate to Poison Piranha despite their different appearances and attacks, exhaling poison breath and chomping with poison fangs and spitting poison balls respectively PrincessPeachFan (talk)

Ultimate lists Putrid Piranha and Poison Piranha separately just like it does Big Piranha and Naval Piranha, so these are merges that will assuredly not happen. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:38, November 19, 2021 (EST)

@LinkTheLefty, I specifically said that it’s like saying Beanies and Shrooblets are variants of each other, not variants of Goombas. My point is that Putrid Piranhas and Poison Piranhas’ attacks will result in the player being poisoned. Frost Piranhas act like normal Piranha Plants, with an extra attack: shooting frozen breath. Ice piranha plants, however, just shoot an ice ball and are always found in pipes. If you need a better explanation, see above. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)

I'm not seeing how Beanies and Shrooblets relate at all to the discussion. Anyway, the whole breath/ball thing isn't clear-cut because you are comparing the subject across different genres, where the moveset is expected to adapt. Fire Piranha from Paper Mario: Sticker Star had a fiery breath attack, but there's no call to split it from Fire Piranha Plant. Also, as the Piranhacus Giganticus merge determined, pipes are not strictly indicative of Piranha Plant species. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:59, November 19, 2021 (EST)

I understand what you mean, but I’m not convinced. I am not changing my vote. Also, I was only relating Beanies and Shrooblets is because both are variants of a common species. It’s also like saying bullet bills are exactly the same thing as banzai bills. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)

@LinkTheLefty I should point out that their attacks in Color Splash and Origami King are not breaths; they simply spit fireballs (in case you assume I'm suggesting splitting the ones from Sticker Star, I promise I am not). Nightwicked Bowser 10:28, November 19, 2021 (EST)

I knew that. I was trying to say that they are not the same thing and should not be merged. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)

@Swallow They have a "spit a cloud of hot ash" attack in Sticker Star, like how normal Piranhas have a dust-spit attack. They actually only spit fireballs very rarely in battle, to the point they didn't at all on my most recent playthrough. Similarly, iirc, TTYD's Frost Piranha just has a bite attack. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:46, November 19, 2021 (EST)

Of those games you mentioned, I only have TTYD, so I can say that that part is correct. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)

@LinkTheLefty: In this case, I feel we're using the Japanese name as the main basis for this merge, despite the fact that only the Japanese and Spanish names are the same (Korean also calls a Frost Piranha an Ice Piranha Plant, though not sure if that's the same for the actual Ice Piranha). But the English and German names clearly do not translate to the same things, while several other languages also refer to a Frost Piranha as such and not as an Ice Piranha. There was a huge majority in languages that suggested that Pale Piranha's were intended to be the standard Piranha Plants, but there isn't that noticeable majority here. On top of that (and in a much simpler viewpoint), Frost Piranhas and Ice Piranhas have a few minor differences between them; Frost Piranhas are blue with blue/green stems, Ice Piranhas look identical to Piranha Plants. Frost Piranha's inflict freezing through their bite and frosty breath, Ice Piranha's inflict freezing through icy projectiles. These plants are undeniably similar, but to say they're the same is still a bit of a stretch given the several, albiet minor, differences. Again, I know next to nothing about the process of translating one language to another, but I do see notable differences that could equally suggest they aren't intended to be the same. Tails777 Talk to me!

Same can be said of the brown Fire Piranhas that appear in a few games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:50, November 19, 2021 (EST)

From what I read, brown Fire Piranhas still have the same behaviour as normal coloured Fire Piranhas. Unless I’m missing something, the only difference is their colour, rather than their colour, their methods of attack and some of their names. Tails777 Talk to me!

Fire Piranha's been through its share of name changes (not even counting Lava Piranha), such as Venus Fire Trap. They additionally prefer to spit hot ash clouds in Sticker Star....quite similar to the frost clouds from previous PM games...barring TTYD, where they only bite (hence further behavioral variety within a single subseries). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:50, November 19, 2021 (EST)

Even in Sticker Star, they still had the same appearance and maintained the same ability to spit individual fireballs as they have in other mainline appearances. The ability to spew hot smoke at Mario could be comparable to how Frost Piranhas were given icy breath in Super as an additional ability. Frost Piranhas have never been shown to spit iceballs while Ice Piranha Plants have never been shown to spew icy breath. On the naming thing, that's more comparable to how Lava Bubbles used to be called Podoboos; they had a name chance, but Venus Fire Traps didn't act any different when they were named as such. Tails777 Talk to me!

Indeed. If (and that's a big "if") there happens to be a new 3D Mario game that uses the unique color scheme for Fire Piranha Plants but also features Ice Piranha Plants that also have a unique color scheme, then I'd be willing to reconsider. Considering how unlikely that is right now, I think you should've waited until an entirely new Mario game features Ice Piranha Plants that are at least shown to spew icy breath. ^(T|C) 19:02, November 20, 2021 (EST)

Also @LinkTheLefty: Let's not forget that Ultimate never mentions Fire Jumping Piranhas and Seed Piranhas, despite having no reason not to. ^(T|C) 19:12, November 20, 2021 (EST)

I'm pretty sure Fire P-Pakkun wasn't officially distinguished until ESMB (which is...second party at best; none of the previous guides listed it, nor did the enemy cast roll), and Tane Pakkun is irrelevant as no other Piranhas debut in said game; note the point is that no other species sharing a game debut for any species listed is skipped, so when, for instance, one from Super Mario Bros. 3 is listed, all from SMB3 are listed. Same reason Double Dash's Mecha-Piranhas and the Pit Plant aren't mentioned. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:36, November 20, 2021 (EST)

Indeed. Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. incidentally gives a different, newer name for Small Piranha (and the Super Mario World Fire Snake), strongly indicating that Ultimate was referencing sources older than that. All in all, I would not underestimate the chances of this matter ending up as Parabuzzy 2.0, which would not take much effort to happen. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:48, November 21, 2021 (EST)

When this is settled, I guess the problem will be solved. I understand everyone’s points, but there is not enough evidence to merge them. Please don’t give dogmatic opinions without proof. (Credit to ^(T|C) for the idea) OhoJeeOnFire (talk)

If this comment is not understandable, I will explain it properly. A dogmatic idea is an idea which is considered the absolute truth. It is usually used without evidence. Everyone should learn this message: don’t make a dogmatic statement and expect everyone else to jump in the bandwagon with you. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)

Mario Portal

To forestall anything about the English Mario Portal translations confirming that this guy and Frost Piranhas are the same thing, it's worth pointing out that Frost Piranhas and Ice Piranha Plants have two completely separate appearances (blue and white, regular colored respectively) and completely separate attacks (Frost Piranhas have ice bite and ice breath, Ice Piranha Plants spit ice balls Ice Mario style). Plus, as we've seen, many things can share the same Japanese name but be completely separate (e.g. Thowmp Blocks and Broozers because they're called Kurasshas in Japan). PrincessPeachFan (talk) 09:36, August 14, 2022 (EDT)

Same can be said of different appearances of Fire Piranha, though. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:41, August 14, 2022 (EDT)

To elaborate on Doc's comment, Fire Piranha Plants started inconsistently having a unique coloration starting with 3D Land, Putrid Piranhas originally did not have a unique color scheme and faced forward (the latter also applies to Frost Piranhas), and the RPGs in general have many series-specific behaviors such as Headbonking Goombas, Crazee Dayzees that put you to sleep, Pokeys that fling their segments at you and call reinforcements, and Dry Bones that are weak to fire instead of immune to it. There are other examples too, such as the dramatically differing appearances of Skeeters or King Boo being genericized outside of the Luigi's Mansion series. 14:12, August 14, 2022 (EDT)

Merge with Frost Piranha

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

Merge 13-4

Basically, see the above discussions. They are both ice-breathing Piranha Plants with the same name in Japanese, and with Mario Portal coming out last summer, in English as well. (There were other names on this article for 3 other languages but I had removed them since they were unsourced, and for all we know this creature was never named in-game.) With SSBU only listing "Frost Piranha" in its bio, while certifying other previously-tenuous splits such as Petea Piranha from Petey Piranha, that should give us a good idea that they are the same thing. Yes, Smash did fail to mention things such as Tane Pakkun, but the things it excluded are one-offs from obscure +20-year-old games that rarely garner attention; this creature was featured in a level in a mainline Mario game (and in the YoL remake in another level as one of the only two enemies in said level), so it would be pretty weird for Smash to leave it out.

And in case anyone is wondering (presumably from not checking the article), no, "Ice Piranha Plant" is not a first-party name. That was a name given in the PRIMA guide for NSMBU, and considering they confused Sumo Bro with Sledge Bro for 6 whole years, is not a trustworthy source in this instance. But regardless, even if this thing was named "Ice Piranha Plant" in-game in some material (thus turning it into yet another LvOI argument), the differences between this and Frost Piranha are really minor and more akin to any enemy redesign than actual, meaningful, separate entities we can cover. "Frost" and "Ice" on their own are really not different concepts, and the enemy function of Frost Piranha was not really consistent in the Paper Mario series anyways; in fact, this situation perfectly aligns with the previous Para-Beetle/Para Buzzy situation, where we decided that they were the same enemy.

Proposer: Somethingone (talk)
Deadline: May 12, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Somethingone (talk) Per my thoughts above. If anyone disagrees, I ask that they please go to any other enemy that has had major redesigns in the past (such as Bully) and explain how this situation is different from any of those.
2. Blinker (talk) Per proposal.
3. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - The only "evidence" of these being different is a guide that only lists one anyway, and even if they weren't actively thinking of the PM64 entity when putting them in NSMBU, they have certainly been retroactively lumped together. I have a page blueprint for the merge here.
4. Shadic 34 (talk) Since I'm someone who prefers merges rather than splits, I'll support this. These plants, while DO have some differences, I feel could be better both discussed on the same page.
5. Arend (talk) While I would've liked the article to keep the name "Ice Piranha Plant" for the sake of consistency with similar Piranha Plants like Fire Piranha Plant and Poison Piranha Plant, both of these have essentially the same powers and the same Japanese name, and now even the English Mario Portal gives them the same name too. The only difference is their appearance (one is blue and the other is not), which I don't find concrete enough: many enemies in the first three Paper Mario games look very different compared to their mainline counterparts, and the 3D Land/3D World Fire Piranha Plant also has different colors compared to the original Fire Piranha Plant (which used to be called Venus Fire Trap), and we have those merged.
6. Swallow (talk) Was on the fence, but with Mario Portal calling these Frost Piranhas and the point about Prima you brought up I'm starting to bend here. Quite curious if Prima was the one that gave the name to Boss Sumo Bro, which was used in-game in Paper Mario: The Origami King.
7. Koopa con Carne (talk) per all
8. LinkTheLefty (talk) Per the support then and now. The only thing I want to add is that "Ice Piranha Plants" aren't even listed or mentioned properly among the Prima guide's list of enemies; this name only has one tiny instance snugly tucked away in a "TIP" box for the Fuzzy Clifftop course. It feels like the writer just wasn't aware of the enemy and came up with a name on the spot when describing the level, and there wasn't enough time to research or ask for Nintendo's name. Mario Portal is, in this case, correcting an error made on Prima's behalf.
9. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
10. Hewer (talk) I think I understand the arguments for this better now, per all.
11. DesaMatt (talk) Per all.
12. 7feetunder (talk) Per my comment below, and everyone else.
13. SolemnStormcloud (talk) After reading the arguments given, I think I can agree to this.

Oppose

1. Mario (talk) There hasn't been very good new arguments to be made here to warrant another proposal on this. These are two enemies with very different appearances. The discussions above don't indicate any consensus. Per opposing arguments from the last proposal and discussions. Rename this to Frost Piranha Plant (New Super Mario Bros.) idk if the current name is bothersome.
2. Spectrogram (talk) Per Mario
3. PrincessPeachFan (talk) No, no, no and NO.
4. Tails777 (talk) Again, multiple different languages still call Frost Piranhas "Frost Piranhas" and not enough names that suggest these are meant to be the same enemies. Plus, I still stand by the multiple differences they have. Similar, undeniable, but I'm still not convinced they're supposed to be one and the same. Per Mario.

Comments

So, the argument is they have the same Japanese name. Why, let's just re-merge the Ice Snifits from ML:SS and Yoshi's Wooly World because they have the same Japanese name despite having different appearances and attacks. The Mario Portal is very untrustworthy because several of its names come directly from us (Ant, Whimp, Sewer Rat) and let's not forget that the Pirahna Plant trophy used Ghost instead of Polterpirahna most likely because it was easier. No way Jose because again, the two plants have COMPLETELY different appearances and attacks. Like Mario said, you can just rename this to Frost Pirahna or something instead of making an entire proposal because of the Japanese names. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 10:03, April 29, 2023 (EDT)

Its distinct appearance and slightly different function are completely meaningless in the context of this franchise. There's been a lot of enemies that have gone through significant redesigns in appearance and function that we still keep merged, because they still have the same identity (off the top of my head, there's Bully before SM3DW, Tox Box in SM64, Skeeter in all of its appearances, Pokey in almost every game pre-NSMBW, Thwomp in the early Mario Kart games and the N64 era, Bull's-Eye Bill in SMB3, Whomp in their original appearances, Maw-Ray prior to SMO, etc.). How is this creature different from any of those redesigns, especially when Fire Piranha Plant had a significantly different color in SM3DL? Plus, enemies in the Paper Mario series almost always had distinct designs in the original 3 games (again, this situation perfectly compares to the Parabuzzy and Para-Beetle merge), such as Bullet Bills being stationary in battle, or Goombas having a headbonk attack, or being the only time where Bob-ombs don't die after exploding, or changing the color of Spike Top to be Blue, and so much more. How is this situation different from any of those? Plus, if we're willing to keep this split based solely on appearance and slight function, then we should be willing to split the two distinct Yoshi's Islands from each other, since they are completely different locations, yet the opposition for this merge also opposes that split. May I ask why that is the case? ^S _o ^m _e ^t _h ⁱ _n ^g _o ⁿ _e ! 10:17, April 29, 2023 (EDT)

The Land 2 names do seem to be taken from the wiki, but that's a game where most of the enemies don't really have official names. It makes sense to me that, for a game like NSMBU, they would be more likely to have access to official names for the game's characters. The Sunshine situation makes it look that way, at least. (Also, the Ice Snifits don't have the same Japanese name. It's the English name that is the same.) Blinker (talk) 10:24, April 29, 2023 (EDT)

As I stated before, several enemies of the first three Paper Mario games have different appearances compared to their mainline counterparts (see Pokey, Spiny, Buzzy Beetle, etc), so considering the Frost Piranha's only appearances is IN those first three Paper Mario games, using their different appearances to justify they are different... is NOT a good argument. It's actually not even "completely" different like you claim it is; the only difference they have in appearance is just that the Frost Piranhas in Paper Mario are blue, while the ones in NSMBU are red.
As I also stated before, the 3D Land and 3D World versions of the Fire Piranha Plant also has a different appearance to the original Fire Piranha Plant... which, prior to 3D Land, we called "Venus Fire Traps" instead, and we got those merged too due to their Japanese names being the same (and the Venus Fire Traps eventually using the Fire Piranha Plant name too as of 2012).
As for the "completely different" attacks, both of them attack using ice coming out of their mouths. Sure, you can say it's sorta different, with one spewing ice balls and another spewing ice breath (or having a frosty bite in TTYD's case), but that's really splitting hairs IMO. Fire Flowers also work a bit different in the first two Paper Mario games (erupting an array of fireballs that targets all enemies) compared to its mainline appearances (allowing Mario to shoot one to a couple of fireballs at a time), and some enemies in Paper Mario have attacks that they don't have in mainline titles (e.g. Goombas don't headbonk in the mainline titles).
Also, the English version Mario Portal has used several names for other enemies that were NEVER used by this wiki before (Parachute Galoomba, Bomber Bill, Mikey Mine, etc), so calling an official English translation from an official Japanese website "very untrustworthy" just because some of the names just so happen to be used by us before as well is speculation at best an conspiracy-theorizing at worst. Also, two of your examples (Ant and Sewer Rat) do in fact have sources outside of the Mario Portal, too ("ant" was used in a couple player guides, and "sewer rat" was used in an Australian magazine). rend (talk) (edits) 10:35, April 29, 2023 (EDT)

Oh, another thing @PrincessPeachFan, I see in the discussion above this proposal, on August 14, 2022, that you noted that certain enemies can share a Japanese name while being completely different on all other fronts, noting Kurasshā ("Thwomp Rock") and Broozer as an example. While that's true, that comparison really does NOT work here; the two entities you mentioned back then are truly completely different in any shape or form (one is a rock that smashes downwards like a Thwomp, the other is a ghost that chases Mario while breaking blocks in its path), but Ice Piranha Plant and Frost Piranha...? Both of them are literally Piranha Plants that attack with ice! With the only notable differences being their coloration and the way how they attack using ice (two points I've already discussed and countered). The reason why we have this discussion is because here, we have two Piranha Plants with similar powers and use the exact same names in both English and Japanese, so they're not as "completely different" as you claim they are.
I'm sorry if bringing a prior discussion here is frowned upon; but I noticed that point hadn't been properly countered, and considering your vehement opposition, I think it's safe to say that you still believe that Ice Piranhas and Frost Piranhas are just as different as Thwomp Rocks and Broozers (which IMO, is an apples and orange comparison about a pair of red and green apples, and a pair of apples and oranges), so I might as well counter it here. rend (talk) (edits) 11:05, April 29, 2023 (EDT)

And they ARE different! Frost Piranhas are blue and attack with a freezing bite and ice breath depending on the game while Ice Piranhas look like regular Piranhas and spit ice balls! That's the reason why they look different from the redesigns like Bully! All the other redesigned enemies never really changed the way they attacked (Bullies still charge at the player, Skeeters zoom along the water and so on). The two enemies are completely different and found in completely different locations (Frost - ice levels, Ice - Non-ice) and that's why they should stay split. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 08:44, April 30, 2023 (EDT)

In Super Paper Mario, they're in The Underwhere which clearly isn't an ice level. There are so many enemies throughout the franchise that appear in tons of different level settings, so I really don't think that's a very good reason, and the different behaviour has already been countered so I won't say any further on that (the behaviour difference in this case isn't even that big anyway) Nightwicked Bowser 09:04, April 30, 2023 (EDT)

So you're saying that while both Frost Piranhas and Ice Piranhas have an icy breath attack, they're fundamentally different because the former additionally bites you? Would you say the Goombas you find in Paper Mario are different from their mainline versions because they headbutt their opponents...? -- KOOPA CON CARNE 09:29, April 30, 2023 (EDT)

For what it's worth, out of the two levels "Ice Piranha Plants" appear in, one of them is ice themed too. Blinker (talk) 09:31, April 30, 2023 (EDT)

That still ignores how the 3D Land / 3D World Fire Piranhas have the same manner of color difference... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:23, April 30, 2023 (EDT)

You clearly didn't read our previous points well, did you? As stated before, the first three Paper Mario games have different enemy designs compared to the mainline titles, and the Frost Piranha only appeared in those three games, so of course it looks different from the Ice Piranha in NSMBU. And as many stated before, Fire Piranha Plant is colored very differently in 3D Land/World (black with orange spots) compared to most other titles (red with white spots like any Piranha Plant), and Nintendo clearly treats them the same, even when the red one was formerly called Venus Fire Trap.
And yet again, they way HOW they attack is splitting hairs - both spit out ice that freezes. And also stated before, Paper Mario has enemies attack differently compared to mainline titles (again, Goombas don't headbonk in main Mario games), so that's not a good point either. Plus, Frost Piranhas only have a freezing bite in TTYD. Besides, Bully and Skeeter NEVER appeared in ANY Paper Mario title, not even the newer ones, so that's a bad comparison.
And as others stated before me, Paper Mario Frost Piranhas have appeared in non-icy locations (The Underwhere), and NSMBU Ice Piranhas appeared in icy locations (Broozers and Barrels), so there's no environmental difference either... not that it's a justifiable reason to keep them split to begin with, as many types of Piranha Plant can appear in a variety of environments. rend (talk) (edits) 13:02, April 30, 2023 (EDT)

@Tails777 I don't understand what you mean by "multiple different languages still call Frost Piranhas "Frost Piranhas"; this proposal is not trying to merge Frost Piranha to Ice Piranha Plant on the basis of "Ice Piranha Plant" being the most recent iteration and name (which is false), this proposal was made to merge Ice Piranha Plant to Frost Piranha on the basis of "Ice Piranha Plant" being a one-off name used only once in one English guide, and was replaced with "Frost Piranha" in later English material. Of course Frost Piranha (the Paper Mario series iteration) was called "Frost Piranha" in almost all languages. The thing here is that "Ice Piranha Plant" (the NSMBU iteration) was given the same name in Japanese as Frost Piranha (Ice Pakkun) and later English material gave it the same English name as Frost Piranha (Frost Piranha). That only leaves an Italian name for Ice Piranha Plant, which does refer to it as "Ice Piranha" as opposed to the (unsourced, supposed) name of Frost Piranha, "Gelid Piranha" (whatever Gelid means... it means "extremely cold"). The other three names that were on this article I had removed, since they had no sources and for all we know the NSMBU creature was never named in-game, even when Ultimate made a huge list of Piranha Plant species. As for the other "they are different" points, please see the comments of the other supporters, as we've made several arguments as to why they do not matter that much. ^S _o ^m _e ^t _h ⁱ _n ^g _o ⁿ _e ! 22:05, April 30, 2023 (EDT)

I'm sorry, but I still just can't get behind it all. Ice Piranha Plants look identical to Piranha Plants and spit ice balls. Frost Piranha's have different color schemes and spew frost breath. Small differences are still differences and that still speaks enough for me to say it's fine if they remain split. I wouldn't compare this to Fire Piranha Plants or Bullies, as despite the redesigns, they still act identically as they did before. Bullies look different, but they still charge at the player and still require the player to push them off the platform to defeat them, Super Mario 64 or Super Mario 3D World. Fire Piranha Plants have different colors, but their 3D Land appearance still acts identically to their prior appearances; spitting fireballs. Ice Piranha Plants haven't taken on the exact abilities as a Frost Piranha has and I'm choosing to stand by that. As for the Mario Portal deal, is there a way I can see that stuff for myself? I looked up the Mario Portal and didn't find anything relating to in-depth enemy guides or whatnot. Just a list of games across history and most of the main characters. Tails777 Talk to me!

@PrincessPeachFan: "the two plants have COMPLETELY different appearances and attacks." In what universe does "literally just a palette swap" qualify as "COMPLETELY different"? The Ice Snifits are a bad comparison, they look nothing like each other. A simple color change does not a completely different design make. Palette swapping is just an easy, developer-friendly method used to distinguish an enemy variant from its base species without having to create different graphics for them, especially common in RPGs like Paper Mario. Note that many Piranha Plant variants originating in the main series are not palette swapped - usually because they have a slightly different appearance or stance that distinguishes them, making a palette swap unnecessary. For example, in 2D platformers, Piranha Plants tend to face vertically, while Fire Piranha Plants face horizontally. Even in Paper Mario, Putrid Piranhas do not have a unique color scheme because they face horizontally, unlike regular Piranha Plants (the developers wanted players to be able to jump on them). However, in TTYD, Putrid Piranhas face up like other Piranha Plants, so they were given a unique color scheme to distinguish them. The same goes for Fire Piranha Plants in 3D Land/3D World - the palette swap is only used when the developers perceive it as necessary for them to look different.

As for the attacks... is an ice ball really all that different from ice breath? They're both spewing ice from their mouths. As multiple people, myself included, have already said, a slight difference in attacks in a game from an entirely different genre that contains several instances of such is not a remotely compelling argument for a split. Short-ranged ice breath wouldn't be much of an obstacle in a platformer, so the change makes sense. The Bloopers in Super Mario Sunshine are honestly way more different than these plants are, and we don't split them. As far as I can tell, the only reason to split these plants and not SMS Bloopers is that the mainline platformers usually ignore the RPGs, so the developers probably weren't thinking of a Paper Mario enemy that hadn't shown up in 5 years - which we have no proof of, and we already had a Paper Mario boss show up in a remake of a mainline platformer and a power-up previously only seen in an RPG and a then-15-year-old manga volume. That only leaves an English name that comes from the same people who couldn't tell the difference between Banzai Bills, Bull's-Eye Banzais, and King Bills. 22:31, April 30, 2023 (EDT)

I wouldn't say that the Ice Snifits "look nothing alike", personally: both are parka-wearing Snifits that shoot ice. Aside from the way how they shoot ice, their only visual differences are their parka color and the direction their hood is pointed at. I do agree that's it's a really bad comparison, though, but that's because, unlike what PrincessPeachFan has claimed, their Japanese names actually ARE different: The MLSS one is called "Sunō Mūcho" (Snow Mūcho) in Japan, while the Woolly World one is called "Aisu Mūcho" (Ice Mūcho) instead. Their different Japanese names is why they were split in the first place. rend (talk) (edits) 05:47, May 1, 2023 (EDT)

Yeah, my point is, Frost Piranhas and Ice Piranhas look and act so dang different from each other that there's really no point in trying to merge them aside from renaming this to Frost Piranha (NSMB) or something based off of the Mario Portal. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 12:48, May 1, 2023 (EDT)

At this point, this debate is just going to go in circles. Nightwicked Bowser 13:06, May 1, 2023 (EDT)

I concur with Swallow here: We know your point already, PrincessPeachFan. You keep repeating the exact same argument of "their looks and attack are 'completely' different", and most of the support has countered said argument with the exact same argument of their own (e.g. it's basically a palette swap, Fire Piranha Plant also appears in different color schemes, Paper Mario enemies have different designs in the first place, etc.). There's literally no point in repeating it over and over; it did not convince us to change our view the first time, and it won't convince us to do so the 756th time. You really need to come up with something better if you really want us to sway from our opinion.
And if you can't come up with another argument, maybe it's better to not say anything, than to repeat the same argument that had already been countered. rend (talk) (edits) 13:12, May 1, 2023 (EDT)

I apologize, as I know this is not my discussion and I also apologize for bringing up frequently brought up points I've mentioned in my own past discussions, but I feel it necessary to compare the whole palette swap argument to how I've already tried to cover a similar idea with Mario Kart Tour's karts. Ignoring the fact that Ice Piranha Plants aren't really "just" palette swaps of a Frost Piranha, I have to once again bring up that we have MANY articles on palette swapped karts with differences equally comparable to this situation. The differences of the Blue Turbo Yoshi having a different color, different favorite/favored courses and a different special skill are easily comparable to two ice based Piranha Plants of different colors and methods of using ice as their abilities. And even then, we also have articles for palette swapped tires that are aesthetic at best (Slick/Cyber Slick, Standard/Blue Standard, none of those tires have any sort of stat changes from their originals, yet they have their own articles, making them less than this). On top of that; Frost Piranhas predate Ice Piranha Plants by at least 13-12 years; there is equal reason to believe that Ice Piranha Plants are meant to be the modern day counterparts to Fire Piranha Plants as there is to believe that Ice Piranha Plants are intended to be redesigned Frost Piranhas. And I know we are aiming to merge this with Frost Piranha, but it should also be worth mentioning that Nintendo, in the modern day, does a very clear job at separating the RPG series from the main series; very few things from the Paper Mario games ever see their way out of the franchise and even fewer things get taken and redesigned for the main series. There is still equal reason to believe Ice Piranha Plants are intended to be their own things, as the characters of the RPG games rarely ever get any sort of mention outside of the RPGs, let alone appear outside of them (barring Smash, but that's a completely different situation). Tails777 Talk to me!

That Mario Kart stuff is apples-to-oranges, those Turbo Yoshi karts appear in the same game together, are karts as opposed to a species, and are named differently in all languages (even if it's just a color identifier). "These palette swapped things are split" cannot be used to justify splitting all palette swaps - gray Krushas aren't getting their own articles anytime soon. Also, you're implying that the two have more differences in appearance than just color, but what differences are you talking about? The only other changes I'm seeing between the two are purely due to the games having a different art design; they both still effectively look just like normal Piranha Plants, just one is color swapped and one isn't.

If you wanna talk about appearance gaps, why are you emphasizing the debut of Frost Piranhas? Frost Piranhas debuted 12 years ago, so? That doesn't mean anything. The actual relevant time interval here (as I mentioned previously) is the gap between NSMBU and Frost Piranhas' latest appearance prior to NSMBU - 5 years. That's hardly any longer than the gap between PM and SM64DS. I already explained why the "they wouldn't bring back an RPG enemy" argument rings hollow: even if they rarely did it even when those games were new, they've done it before, there's no reason they couldn't do it again. Even if the NSMBU developers didn't have PM on their minds when they decided to include an ice-spitting Piranha Plant variant at the time (we have no proof of that, but it's definitely plausible), that distinction has been thrown out the window not just by Smash, but Mario Portal as well (the link is on the article, since you asked). Mario Portal especially, since it specifically opted to identify them as Frost Piranhas when it could have gotten "Ice Piranha Plant" from Prima, us, or just as a more direct translation of the Japanese name. 00:19, May 3, 2023 (EDT)

Regarding the hover text of Frost Piranhas originally being a palette swap of Putrid Piranhas; it should also be noted that the original appearance of such a Putrid Piranha was essentially a regular Piranha Plant with their heads facing forwards instead of upwards, which already makes them (and in turn, Frost Piranhas), similar to other Piranha Plants that face their heads forwards, such as Fire Piranha Plant, Poison Piranha Plant, and, well, the NSMBU Frost Piranha. rend (talk) (edits) 08:26, May 3, 2023 (EDT)

@7feetunder: Thanks for the reference, I can now definitely see that they used the name Frost Piranha. So that is a fair point. However, I'm afraid I still stand by my stance. If we want to avoid using the whole "naming is the basis for split/merge" idea, I still stand by my point of the two Piranhas being similar, yet still different enough. While you could compare this to how Goombas or other Piranha Plants act differently/are given extra forms of attack for the RPGs, that's still not entirely accurate from my point of view, since Frost Piranha's appeared first in the RPG games, rather than being established enemies beforehand like Goombas, Koopas or Piranha Plants. It's more on the reverse side of this possibly being a situation where the more detailed version of the enemy was made into a simplified version for the core series, but from my standpoint, it's still far likelier that Ice Piranha Plants were made to be a polar opposite to Fire Piranha Plants. Frost Piranhas are colored blue (which is no different than how TTYD/SPM Putrid Piranhas are a different color), their bites inflict freeze in TTYD and they exhale icy breath in SPM. Ice Piranha Plants look identical to Piranha Plants (and by extension, Fire Piranha Plants, furthering the potential connection that they're based more on them) and attack by spitting ice balls that, much like a Fire Piranha Plant's fireballs, fly towards the player. And even if Fire Piranha Plants have gone through name and visual changes, their attack patterns across their appearances haven't changed; Venus Fire Traps acted the same, brown Fire Piranha Plants act the same. I don't think it's the same comparison here. Sorry, but the current arguments still don't convince me otherwise. Tails777 Talk to me!

The Ice Flower item is in the same situation, though. It debuted in an RPG and has had at least three behaviors. But we treat them as the same. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:35, May 5, 2023 (EDT)

From a personal standpoint, I'd actually support the idea of splitting the Partners in Time versions of the Fire Flower and Ice Flower; neither transform the user into the corresponding form, the Fire Flower is even named the Bros. Flower (something that is retained across all languages) and while both offer similar abilities, the Ice Flower ability lowers stats rather than freezing the target. However, that's just me and I don't see such an idea gaining much support. Beyond that, however, the Ice Flowers of Galaxy and New Super Mario Bros. titles both transform Mario into Ice Mario, with the Ice Mario of Galaxy having it's own article anyway. Tails777 Talk to me!

The two Ice Marios is a bit of a different beast and might be its own can of worms, for the differences between Galaxy Ice Mario and NSMB Ice Mario are more substantial than those between Paper Mario Frost Piranha and NSMBU Frost Piranha (at least, to me); for one, while the only visual differences between the two Frost Piranhas is essentially the head color (although older PM titles had the stem and tongue colored differently too), NSMB's Ice Mario is essentially a Fire Mario palette swap, while Galaxy's Ice Mario is entirely made of ice. Moreover, while both Frost Piranhas and the NSMB Ice Mario have ice attacks, Galaxy's Ice Mario's powers are more passive comparatively, creating an ice platform on liquids by walking or jumping on them, allowing for easier traversal. What doesn't really make things better here is that unlike the Frost Piranha Plants (where one type exclusively appeared in the first three Paper Mario games, which took creative liberty on appearances and attacks compared to the mainline games), both types of Ice Mario debuted in (more recent and streamlined) mainline titles as well and have appeared in recent spinoff titles, creating even more confusion on whether or not they're supposed to be the same thing compared to the Frost Piranhas, I feel. rend (talk) (edits) 11:54, May 8, 2023 (EDT)

I can go either way with this, doesn't really matter if these stay split or are merged. So...

First, Paper Mario is a spin-off game and so Frost Piranha is a spin-off original character. Is it with Ice Piranha Plant the same as with Goomba King/Goomboss or Vanna T./Toadette? Both cases have the shared Japanese name, but while with Goomboss the appearance can be used to consider the same as Goomba King, Toadette is distinct and whatever statements the are don't consider her the same as Vanna T. This leaves Frost Piranha in an awkward spot where despite its latest appearance in SPM it still looks different from Ice Piranha Plant. That's why I don't find 3DL Fire Piranhas a good point either because between the two series, Frost Piranha still differs in color from Ice Piranha. So, there's precedence for a character from one series not being the same as the character from another.

Prima guides are still official sources, they're just an easy target because of their past over others like Smash Bros and Mario Portal. For example, SSB can't be consistent about Deka/Big classification by listing SM64 as an appearance for Big Goomba in SSB4 while Palutena's Guidance for Piranha Plant mentions Big Piranha Plant at where NSMBW would fit in SSBU. And Mario Portal uses ESMB almost 1:1 and carries over some of its inconsistencies like using ”Small Mario” of any small Mario; that didn't become official until 3DL. Not that it really matters when ambiguously official and even unofficial sources, trustworthy or not, can influence official material later on. Bull's-Eye Banzai from ESMB became official in SMM2. All-Stars Shogakukan guide took Missile Bill's JP name ”Return Killer” from Famicom Tsushin (Famitsu) SMB3 supplements. And now ”Frost Piranha” gets used on Mario Portal because SSBU likely ripped off Wikipedia, the English version likely taking ”Frost Piranha” from that same article, and so ”Frost Piranha” had more exposure in official material over ”Ice Piranha Plant” which was added to Wikipedia afterwards.

And finally, there's the matter of if two subjects are really the same or just analogous. Like anything Mega/Kyodai and Big/Deka, or Mini/Mame and Small/Chibi for simple examples. These tend to be under the same article if they're otherwise indistinct from each other, but then we have Nintendo treat Small Mario and Mini Mario separately. As for Frost Piranha and Ice Piranha, one comes from a spin-off and has distinct colors and the other is from the core series not looking any different from normal Piranha Plants. Paper Mario got rid of additional Piranha Plant postures in TTYD, and ice ball is as different from ice breath as Ice Flower granting different powers/forms.

tl;dr: I can get behind a single English name that through whatever game of telephone came to be used of two similar characters between a spin-off and a main game, but at the same time I'm against this even despite the same name because they still look different. So I'm staying neutral. SmokedChili (talk) 12:22, May 8, 2023 (EDT)