Talk:Sidestepper

(First topic)

This page should be combined with crab page, minus the Donkey kong crabs as they have no apparent connection. The fact that Japanese sidesteppers use the generic name crab seems Nintendo meant for them to be the same species.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nesdustin (talk).

No it shouldn't. They are officially named Sidesteppers in North America unlike a lot of the other crab species, so it gets so be separated. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Even though the Brawl trophy implies that in English, they aren't just called crabs, but literally "Mr. Crab" in Japan. Whether all "Crabs" referred to as such in English are separate from the Sidesteppers or not in Japan is another story, but definitely not all Crabs are Sidesteppers and therefore the pages shouldn't be merged. --Grandy02 12:01, 10 January 2010 (EST)

Add game appearances table

-- (talk) 15:23, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

Those seem to mostly be being phased out. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:35, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

How, Doc? -- (talk) 19:14, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

Why? They're useful for listing chronological appearances, something our history sections don't do. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 19:22, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

With Bazooka Mario (talk)! -- (talk) 19:23, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

I'm just reporting what I see. I seem to recall them being all over once upon a time, but now there's only a few. I think they're useful, myself. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:33, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

Oh, so that's just a case of "the wiki is always incomplete". I think calling it "phased out" is inaccurate, more like "not a lot of edits adding these", but that makes sense because they take effort. So anyway, the game appearances table should be added. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 19:35, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

I suppose I had just never asked. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:36, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

I use it so much to know the track of THAT character specifically. I'll work on this character appearances table based on the history information. -- (talk) 19:40, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

DID! -- (talk) 21:13, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

All right. Try italicizing the game titles. Think like book titles. I also don't think the italics are needed on "cameo", so remove those, and capitalize. Also, remove the period in the Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga part, and remove the bold on Mario Kart 8 (keep that italics, and I don't think it needs a link). I'd also remove the sentence at the beginning; the table by itself doesn't need further description. And there, the table should be done. See, wasn't so hard, right? It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 21:20, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

Did! -- (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

Mario Clash?

Should the Sidestepper from Mario Clash be considered a normal Sidestepper or a variant? It may have the same English name, but it has a more "aggressive" design with spiked claws that block shells, and noticeably starts out walking forward instead of its usual sidestepping (doing that only when hit the first time). Its traditional attack pattern has also been altered - instead of simply moving faster when hit once, it turns to the side when it moves faster, but then slows down and stops if the player takes too long to hit it again, resetting its status. If split, that would mean that none of the original Mario Bros. enemy cast returned as-is in Mario Clash, and it wouldn't be the only reused name for a different enemy in the game (see Para-Goomba). LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:20, March 10, 2020 (EDT)

'cept Fireball and Icicle were given eyes-of-life by the art, so they're still a thing. I think the main idea you bring up is valid, though, particularly given Koopa Troopas are given visual callbacks to Shellcreeper, their own predecessor... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:03, March 10, 2020 (EDT)

Well, Fire and Ice may be under the Enemy Characters section of the manual, but they are at the end and are both considered hazards instead of enemies ("Along with other enemies, there are other hazards that will interfere with you."), and are also listed separately from enemies under Scoring. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:14, March 10, 2020 (EDT)

I don't think so. Mario Clash Is not really much like the original classic. And with the way it is set up, it had to have an alteration. I think they only redesigned Sidestepper to fit with the look of the game. Game developers tend to try new designs sometimes. Take Klepto for example. In Super Mario Odyssey, it is uglier than the original design, and has a new pattern. But's still called Klepto. And look, In Mario Tennis Aces, the design is, mostly, the same as the original. --Partier (talk) 14:59, August 16, 2020 (EDT)

Bumping this. "Quattro" seems to be intended as a spinoff from the original Kani-san/Kanikichi rather than a redesign of it; the lang-of-orig name being so completely different from anything before it really lends credence to them being different. If their behavior and design were the only differences, that would be one thing, but they aren't. It was hardly the only replacement, either, given Fighter Fly was functionally replaced with Para-Goomba... to say nothing of Spike (Top) and Thorny taking over Shellcreeper's role while Koopa Troopa took over its design. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:38, May 4, 2025 (EDT)

Infobox image

The image used in the infobox right now doesn't seem to be their modern design, which we normally use. I get the feeling this may be due to the fact that there seems to be no artwork of their modern design, should the image be a sprite/model of their modern design or leave it as is? Keyblade Master (talk) 14:27, July 6, 2020 (EDT)

Their design actually hasn't changed much at all; if you look at the MB arcade sprite, it's very close to their modern appearances. The main difference seems to be they aren't given an opportunity to get "mad" anymore, though we'll see if PMTOK changes that. Either way, artwork takes priority. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:07, July 6, 2020 (EDT)

Speaking of, shouldn't the main image be changed back to the Spirit artwork seeing as that takes priority over the model currently in use? PrincessPeachFan (talk) 08:02, November 25, 2021 (EST)

That is an older design, and the image currently used is the modern design; that should take priority. Nightwicked Bowser 08:32, November 25, 2021 (EST)

Then in that case, we should switch the Nipper Plant's artwork from it's Spirit artwork to Yoshi's Island DS because, technically speaking, the spirit design is an older design. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 13:05, November 25, 2021 (EST)

When was the redesign first applied to "Sidestepper" specifically?

In Mario Kart DS, or at least the English script of it, the crustaceans that appear are referred to as "crabs." Their behavior and certain elements of their design call back to the more realistic (google eyes notwithstanding) crabs from Mario Kart 64, having the same waddling and stopping to snip rapidly. This design was later used in Mario Kart Wii as a replacement for the crab enemies in that game, though I am having trouble finding a source for any of these games calling them "Sidestepper" specifically until afterwards, with ones like The Origami King and Kart Tour doing so. So what I'm wondering is when "Sidestepper" (in either English or Japanese) was specifically referred to as what this design is for. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:40, May 5, 2025 (EDT)

It seems to be an Ukiki-like example of convergent evolution, so to speak, doesn't it? Maybe the information on the Mario Kart 64 crabs could be moved here. Sidesteppers are already called just Kani in other games, so it wouldn't be TOO weird. Blinker (talk) 07:10, May 19, 2025 (EDT)

It's worth nothing that they're often kind of generically referred to as "Crab" in Japanese a lot of the time (including possibly in Mario Kart World?), so it's not too far-fetched to imagine someone was just like "hey, what if we made them look like the crabs from Mario Bros." when doing the redesign for Mario Kart DS. The use of "Sidestepper" in English at least dates back to merchandise for Mario Kart Wii, at least. BubbleRevolution (talk) 12:18, May 28, 2025 (EDT)

Update: Mario Kart World appears to simply call them "Crab" (カニ) in Japanese, so kind of adds to my original point. BubbleRevolution (talk) 14:56, June 6, 2025 (EDT)

Then it would seem that the first time a Japanese name was used for this design is TOK. So either they're different things that had some design overlap, or they're the same thing and thus the MK64 crab is also the same thing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:25, June 7, 2025 (EDT)

Continuation of the above: Mario Kart and crabs

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So, from what I have learned, the crabs in the Mario Kart games have always been referred to as カニ (Kani, crab) throughout that entire series, with the one exception being the one in Mario Kart Advance that looks more like a classic Sidestepper than any of these anywayMedia:MKSC Sidestepper.png. English translations have waffled on that (because of us?), but other than this series, Sidesteppers were only generically identified as Kani in the instruction cards for the original arcade Mario Bros. (where in-game they were "Sidesteppers" regardless of region). Furthermore, relatively recent LINE artwork consistently uses the arcade design and Smash Bros. stuff seems to consider them unique to Mario Bros.-based games, and to be quite honest the MK crab doesn't really look like the MB crab aside from "is a standard cartoon crab, but with silly teeth" - notably it lacks the eyebrows that Sidesteppers always have when they show their teeth, and are usually in their artwork. It seems more like the fairly generic-looking MK64 crab was given some of Sidestepper's traits, not unlike what happened to Cheep Chomp being redesigned to resemble Boss Bertha or Ukiki being redesigned (and effectively merged into) Grinder. So basically, all of the below are officially treated as the same subject:

• 

  Mario Kart 64

• 

  Mario Kart DS

• 

  Mario Kart 8

It would seem like a clean split, if it weren't for the aforementioned Mario Kart Advance / Super Circuit as well as Paper Mario: The Origami King, which appears to use an origami-fied version of this design for Kani-san - the most recurring non-generic Japanese name for Sidesteppers. This leads to one of two options:

1. The Mario Kart ones are all retroactively Sidesteppers, including the MK64 ones. Considering that was the same game that had this abominationMedia:MK64 Piranha Plant.gif as Piranha Plant, that's not too off anyways.
2. The Mario Kart ones barring MKSC are a different crab from Sidestepper Classic, more akin to how Snowman in Mario Kart is separate from Mr. Blizzard, with the English name situation being primarily a Ghost Piranha situation, and the TOK thing merely borrowing this one's design.

How we currently have it awkwardly splits the Mario Kart series based entirely on a design, which again doesn't really look any more like a classic Sidestepper than it does any other toony crab. I think one of these two options would work better, though I'm personally leaning more towards the first due to the English naming issue, TOK, and the MKSC guide. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:25, June 7, 2025 (EDT)

Second option shouldn't be done under any circumstance in my opinion, they're clearly meant to evoke the enemies from Mario Bros., plus the original arcade title, Super Mario Advance, and Super Mario Maker all use Kani (カニ) as the name anyway. The fact that the Mario Kart design was used in The Origami King under the Kani-san (カニさん) name, a name which has also been used in relation to their appearances in the Famicom Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. 3, clearly paint the picture they're meant to be the same enemy. Super Circuit also uses the Kani-san name, which kind of hammers it home for me, personally. As for the LINE artwork, I more think that's just a choice of using an older design based on existing 2D artwork rather than indicating some sort of wholly separate entity.

As for the Mario Kart 64 crab, while I wouldn't be strongly opposed to merging it, I feel it's a pretty big case of jumping the gun, and I think treating it as though they have to be the same enemy due to that isn't really a foregone conclusion. Like I said above, my best guess is that it was likely just a generic crab in 64, and then from Super Circuit-onward they decided to use the Mario Bros. version of the enemy in its place to reference the series' history. This seems pretty plausible to me considering the fact that Sidesteppers made a decently prominent appearance in Super Mario Advance (both as part of the Mario Bros. port as well as featuring in Clawgrip's pre-boss fight animation), which came out around the same time. Shared behavior doesn't necessarily make the two the same thing, and the only other substantial argument to merge them I could see would be the yellow bits on the claws, but that's a feature common to a number of real-world crabs, most notably the red claw crab (native to East Asia, including Japan). "Crab" is an ultra-generic name, and there's clearly a distinction between generic crabs and the Mario Bros.-specific crabs in the series (i.e. the crabs in 3D World and Odyssey), so I don't think a merge at this time is super warranted. BubbleRevolution (talk) 12:48, June 8, 2025 (EDT)

Mario Kart DS's "crabs" use the same animations and behaviors as the MK64 "crabs," though, unlike the SC Sidesteppers that simply move back and forth. There's also the deal with the yellow-tipped pincers and green eyes (the latter of which is certainly not a reality-based trait) coming from the MK64 crab and not being present for SC's. All in all, this feels like an Ukiki situation where two previously unrelated things with very similar designs were merged in a manner that split the difference, with pretty much all later generic-type crabs being much more realistic than either, and both names being used in tandem or interchangeably now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:08, June 8, 2025 (EDT)

Second option would frankly be a convoluted mess, not to mention the unsubstantiated "the wiki did it" that has to be resorted to for it to even make sense (that argument's getting kind of old). I think the resemblance between modern Sidestepper and the original arcade design is being massively downplayed here in an attempt to make the point. Missing eyebrows aside, it just looks like a modernization of angry Sidestepper. I would also like to point out that this 1993 artwork depicts Sidestepper in a Mario Bros. context with a design that's nearly identical to its current appearance.

I'm fine with the current setup, but if anything has to be done, I would prefer the Mario Kart 64 crab be merged here, as long as it's neutrally written. I don't think we should definitively consider it a Sidestepper without better evidence, and this is where laying out the facts and letting the readers come to their own conclusions based on them instead of forcing one interpretation over the other comes in. There's crabs in Mario Kart 64, Mario Kart DS replaces them with a design that has since been attributed to the Mario Bros. enemy, that's all we really know for sure. (It's not even the only case of Mario Kart DS swapping out a relatively generic design from 64 for an established Mario thing, Banshee Boardwalk's bats were also replaced with Swoops.) -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 14:11, June 8, 2025 (EDT)

The bat thing is a good point, it very well could be a similar case. It's worth noting that Koopa Troopa Beach, which was the only track that featured crabs in that game, didn't return to the series until Mario Kart 7, well after the Sidestepper's role in the series had been implemented. In response to the above points, I'll restate that I think behavior doesn't make it the end-all be-all confirmation of them being the exact same creature, and may well have just been a case of reusing code. I wouldn't be surprised if the modern Sidestepper design took inspiration from the 64 crab given they're in the same role, but I do feel a wholesale merge is jumping the gun at this point.

As stated previously, there's a clear distinction between the Mario Bros. enemy and generic crabs in the series, but I don't really think there's enough evidence to think that the DS crabs are simply meant to be redesigned versions of the ones in 64 unrelated to Sidesteppers (a la Grinder and Ukiki). Given the stark design differences (the 64 design resembles a cartoony depiction of a hermit crab in a shell, compared to your typical "true crab" with prominent eyestalks), the fact that Super Circuit explicitly features the Mario Bros. enemy in a near-identical role, and how recognizable the Mario Bros. design is, I have kind of a hard time buying into the idea it was some convergent evolution of two separate characters like Ukiki.

I also think the current paragraph on the Crab article treats the 64 enemy as basically explicitly confirmed to be the same as the DS-onward Sidesteppers, and omits the fact that the Mario Bros. enemies have a long history of similarly just being called "Kani" in Japanese. The bit about Mario Kart not using "more specialized names used for Sidesteppers in other contemporary games" to them feels a bit too leading in my view, especially considering the things have had like five different names in Japanese depending on which game they're showing up in. BubbleRevolution (talk) 16:57, June 8, 2025 (EDT)

I have to disagree on the hermit crab thing; they don't have horizontally-oriented bodies like that, they're rather thin for a carcinized creature. This looks more like a normal crab rendered without eyestalks, given on real crabs they're generally pretty stubby anyway. Also, the distinction between arcade crab and normal crab isn't that clear; note the crab in Golf: Japan Course and the one on the Sunshine group art that could go either way. Also, I don't think I've seen "Komori" used to describe Swoop in MKDS-onward, so it seems to be self-contained to the MK64 ones. Also, Swoops never inherited any design aspects from the MK64 bats (in fact, the closest design they had to those is from SM64, ie before), unlike the crabs. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:11, June 8, 2025 (EDT)

I'm using hermit crab in relation to Huckit Crabs, which are explicitly based on such. There's a clear dark area in the middle of the body that's clearly meant to be an opening of a shell or something, it's not exactly a scientifically accurate depiction but it's clearly not just meant to be something like the Sidestepper. I also think you're overselling the design inheritance a little bit, the green eyes add some credence to it and while it is certainly a possibility that the Mario Kart DS design took inspiration from the crabs in 64 (given they likely shared code), like I said, the yellow claw tips are based off a real crab that's common in Japan, and could just as easily have done to evoke the yellow highlights the original arcade sprite has. The Sunshine crab I would also say is almost definitely not meant to be a Sidestepper and arguing as such would be kind of silly at this point, there's little to no similarity aside from just both generally resembling a cartoon depiction of a true crab. Golf could have potentially been a reference to Mario Bros. by virtue of being an NES game where references like that were more common, but it could also just as easily have been a generic crab, hence why it's not merged here, and I don't really see why the 64 crabs would be much different in that case. Meanwhile, DS features the large grimacing toothy mouth which is a pretty distinctive feature of the enemy dating back to the original arcade title.

I should also note that Swoops already had an established modern design from Super Mario 64 DS, while Sidesteppers did not, hence why they didn't inherit any traits from the Mario Kart bats. It's also an explicit example of an existing Mario enemy replacing a generic creature from 64 in Mario Kart DS, and considering the DS Sidesteppers as being confirmed to be the same thing in spite of that pattern when the the sole 64 track the crabs were featured in isn't even in the game, again, seems like massively jumping the gun. Considering Super Circuit explicitly features the Mario Bros. enemy in a near-identical role, it seems pretty obvious to me that it's most likely another example akin to what happened with Swoops replacing the bats. BubbleRevolution (talk) 13:29, June 9, 2025 (EDT)

Interestingly, this artwork (used for Mario Bros. (Classic Serie) (boxart) and Mario Bros. (Game Boy Advance) (website)) uses a design for Sidestepper that's actually pretty similar to the Mario Kart design as of Mario Kart DS:

It's like they took that design for the crab and incorporated the yellow claw tips from the Mario Kart 64 one into it. rend (talk) (edits) 14:01, June 8, 2025 (EDT)

In fact, the Sidestepper design for Mario Kart World actually re-incorporates the segmented arms and legs from the above artwork:

That makes it more evident that this artwork is the basis for the current Mario Kart Sidestepper design. rend (talk) (edits) 14:14, June 8, 2025 (EDT)

Actually, looks like Mario Kart Tour already implemented the segmented limbs:

Strange, usually Tour just reuses character models from Mario Kart 8, which didn't have the segmented limbs for its Sidesteppers... I think.

rend (talk) (edits) 14:54, June 8, 2025 (EDT)

My preferred outcome would be to include the Mario Kart 64 crab on this page, treating it as an Ukiki/Grinder situation. I already thought that, but seeing that Sidestepper artwork, I'm noticing that the main differences between it and the current design are the pincers being flat rather than serrated, the pincers having yellow tips, and the green eye color, all of which are seemingly taken from the 64 crab. Blinker (talk) 17:18, June 8, 2025 (EDT)

Interesting, that does look like a proper in-between of the two designs akin to that "Classic Modern Sonic" image from Sonic 3D Blast. I suppose they're definitely the same thing, though as Blinker says before, there's definitely some mixing of design aspects by the time of Mario Kart DS. Lest we try to split Grinder from Ukiki again... (I had never taken much stock in that artwork before since it has Shellcreeper looking exactly like Koopa Troopa and the artwork as-far-as-I-could-tell originating from a western-only release; I was unaware it was used on a JP website for Advance.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:34, June 8, 2025 (EDT)