Talk:Vivian

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In Spanish

At least in spanish (or is it "european"?) version, its told in the game that Vivian is a MALE that disguises as female. In the description of the character says it. Also, his/her sister talks about him/her as a boy. Goombella´s description does as well...
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drmgin (talk).

I don't recall that in the German version. Looks like some translations decided to keep the original Japanese story while others changed it. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 16:21, 9 January 2009 (EST)

Ok, yes. I remember that in the game his/her sister said that "he likes to think that hes a girl but hes really a boy". It seems that is not present in other european countryes.

Drmgin 12:40, 20 January 2009 (EST)

It is. I have the French version. And if German and France call her as a guy, I think it's the same for other PAL regions. Koopalmier 05:53, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

in the italian version is an ex male--Koopakingdomking 18:20, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

remove gender part

I am thinking about removing the gender part. I have researched this, and concluded: Vivian was NOT a male in the JAP version. Beldam's referral to her as a man was merely an insult. It is an insult to say a female looks like a man. JerseyMarioFreak 00:15, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Vivian is indeed a girls name (Vivian Vance, I Love Lucy, anyone?)

And Walkazo, who gives a flying *CENSORED* what GLAAD says? They should all be thrown in prison!!! JerseyMarioFreak 00:24, 9 February 2009 (EST)

That doesn't even make sense. Not only is your comment extremely offensive, but the Mario Wiki is committed to having complete coverage of the Mario series in all its forms. As her sex and gender change between versions of the game, we need to document this. -- Son of Suns (talk)

Agreed. Although I hate to admit it, Vivian was a guy in Japan. Although that paragraph is somewhat cryptic, we need to include it in the article because it was part of the history of Vivian. BLOC PARTIER.

Okay, I rewrote the whole section, so hopefully it's a lot clearer now. I'm afraid I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, so I couldn't really comment on how they approach gender identity in their media (I know it's a bit more fluid and less squirrelly than in mainstream North America, but I couldn't find any solid references to cite on the matter, so I left it out). Hopefully the link to Wikipedia's bishounen article makes up for my Western outlook on transgendered pronoun usage. - Walkazo 18:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Another Quote, Possibly Better?

I think instead of the quote used at the beginning of the article, we could use this one from Vivian. "Your name was stolen? I see... Well, I guess that happens from time to time..." I think it is funnier and kind of tells how interesting the game gets :P If you all don't agree, that's okay. Im4Viv (talk)

If you would like, you can do it. Just edit the Template: Quote. It should look like this:

gray

Personally, the current quote sounds better and matches Vivian a bit more, as it's the time where she gets the confidence to finally stand up to her older sister. Tails777 Talk to me!

I agree.

"References" not quite right

This sentence from the "References" section isn't quite right, and I can't figure out how to change it: 'In the Spanish version of Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, during her Tattle for Vivian ("Bibiana" in the localization), Goombella originally uses a female pronoun for Vivian ("la") but then corrects herself and uses the masculine pronoun ("el") instead: "¡Es Bibiana! La más pequeña del Trío de las Sombras... Bueno... EL más pequeño [...]"' "El" and "la" are articles, not pronouns, and this overlooks the feminine and masculine versions of "pequeño". I think something more like "Goombella originally uses feminine terms for Vivian ("la más pequeña") but then corrects herself and uses the masculine version ("el más pequeño") instead..." would probably be better. Karma (talk)

Thanks for catching that! I've fixed the reference to what you suggested. - Walkazo 20:00, 1 April 2014 (EDT)

Comments removed by the administrators.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Grand Master Gamer (talk).

As I told you last time, Vivian identifying as a female makes her transgender in the Japanese and various PAL translations; close-minded reactions like this is why they had to censor it to just plain female in the English version. Beldam calling Vivian a boy was explicitly spelled out in red katakana: it's meant to be taken literally, and the Japanese LP I watched had the Japanese player taking it as such. The fact that so many different languages all maintain the "boy who identifies as a girl" point, yet giving it different spins, also show that it's true. In fact, in the Italian version, Vivian says that she's not a real sister, but feels like a woman and is proud of it too: can't get any less ambiguous than that. The facts speak for themselves, so please stop trying to argue otherwise (especially if all you're gonna do is cut and paste chunks of your older post, like you did here, which is bending rules): all it comes off as is transphobic ranting at this point, which has no place on the wiki. - Walkazo 20:13, 9 May 2014 (EDT)

Comments removed by the administrators.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Grand Master Gamer (talk).

What? It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 23:55, 9 May 2014 (EDT)

Beldam is a bully, sure, but you're the one who doesn't understand; her insults are meant to be taken literally; the language of her insults explicitly indicates this. Vivian is male, but prefers to be called a female. Beldam mocks this identification by calling Vivian a "man". This is not insulting Vivian's gender as you think it is; it's insulting her gender identity. Vivian has also said herself that she's male that prefers to be female ('kazo: "she's not a real sister, but feels like a woman and is proud of it too"). It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 00:11, 10 May 2014 (EDT)

you don't know that was beldam being a bully buy saying that vivan she was being bully what part of that don't you under stand you troll. Grand Master Gamer

this is what the gender part of her page should look like There is debate about her gender, as Beldam insults her by calling her a man in the Japanese version. The tattle log also says she is the "youngest sister er... brother." Though due to the use of "she" and "her" after the insult it is possibly intended to be a joke that Mario took the insult seriously. you know how they like to make joke's in japan. Grand Master Gamer and User:Mario/sig when i said troll i was saying that to User:Walkazo/sig i was also in a bad mood at the time.

Comments removed by the administrators.

This Vivian b****** is all the result of some guy not understanding how Japanese pronouns and gender politics work. The character's gender was ambiguous as a running joke and the ONE mention of her being male was when her sister used a masculine pronoun to refer to her, which is extremely disrespectful to women in Japan.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Grand Master Gamer (talk).

Administrator Note: Most of the commentary made here by Grand Master Gamer has been removed by the admins as ranting that is of no constructive use to the article and is nothing but clutter here. Portions of it were even copied and pasted directly from the comments the user made at the bottom of this earlier section, which is essentially spamming the page. All that's been left intact for the record are comments that the user received a warning over, and responses by other users to the ranting. - Walkazo 19:27, 12 May 2014 (EDT)

why is Vivian Beldam and her other sister are called sorceresses that is a name for a female only group and Vivian is male in the japan version i just don't get it Mario&Princess Peach (talk) 12:26, 23 June 2014 (EDT)

In the Japanese version, Beldam corrects Vivian when she tries to use a female-only term at first (since she self-identities as female), but then later loosens up. In English, the transgender stuff's removed so Vivian's simply female and there's nothing more to it. - Walkazo 11:17, 28 June 2014 (EDT)

the thing I don't get is that in street fighter is that I heard that in the English version they made poison a transgender and in japan she was female she why did they not keep Vivian as a transgender or a futa? Mario&Princess Peach

about Vivian being transgender do you mean that she is a transvestite or a futa in the Japan version i don't know with one she would be thought. Mario&Princess Peach

She's a boy by birth but identifies as a girl, so neither (transvestites just dress as the opposite sex but don't consider themselves as being the other gender, and futanari is more like androgyny or hermaphrodism as far as I know), just transgender. To my knowledge, Nintendo's never said why they changed it, but the theory is that the English localizes didn't think it'd be appropriate in a kid's game for one reason or another. - Walkazo 14:27, 28 June 2014 (EDT)

i was on a other cite and i saw a comment that said that Vivian Japan catch card for super paper Mario said that she was 100% female i have been looking to see if it was true but so far i have not find her Japan catch card Mario&Princess Peach (talk)

ok then I was looking for info on a video game character witch is Ethel from fairy fencer f and then I Shaw a comment from Nintendo I clecked on the link and it toke me to rule 34 and the comment said that Vivian is 100% female and people think that was the real Nintendo I mean way would Nintendo be on a site like that un less it's a fake account that is so what do you people think? 06:24, 11 July 2015 (EDT)I'am King Shredder (talk)

Our article is accurate. If people wanna believe otherwise elsewhere on the Internet, that's their problem. - Walkazo 12:41, 11 July 2015 (EDT)

How many times will this dead horse be beaten? I'm thinking we should put these types of comments under forum talk because nothing constructive is going out of them and we're not going anywhere. People, shut up about Vivian's gender. Ray Trace^(T|C) 15:33, 11 July 2015 (EDT)

Catch Card

If it helps any, the Super Paper Mario catch card in question refers to Vivian as an オトコのコ, in this case meaning a boy who dresses like a girl. (It can mean either that (男の娘) or just (男の子) boy.)

The full text is:

「ぺーパーマリオRPG」に
とうじょうした　マリオのなかま
火の魔法を　使う　キュートな　オトコのコ
カゲ三人組という　てきの１人だった

Introduced in Paper Mario: TTYD, one of Mario's partners.
A cute boy crossdresser who uses fire magic.
Was a member of the "Shadow Trio".

Here's the video I got it from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmnG1YznKq0 (at about 12:44; Vivian's card is #253)

So Vivian is "biologically" male. However, given how she uses female pronouns (アタイ) to refer to herself, she identifies as female. IMO, the correct thing to do is call her a "she".

Again, IMO, the joke here is probably not that Beldam insults her, but that you see what you assume are three witch sisters, and the youngest breaks that pattern. --Prankstercomet (talk) 06:12, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

Thanks for the info, interpretation and reference. I've updated the Gender section of the article to include the Catch Card stuff. - Walkazo 20:05, 27 July 2015 (EDT)

the thing is thought they if you think about it their are ways for Vivian to be called a male but be in fact female like at birth she is genderless and can be any gender she wants and their are other things that you guys did not think about I will leave you guy to find out
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 50.101.48.236 (talk).

That's too much speculation about the nature of her species to be appropriate for the article. The wiki's for facts, not fanon. - Walkazo 16:43, 2 August 2015 (EDT)

When it comes to characters like these, gender identity is the only information we have. Her assigned sex (which can assigned at birth, unlike what you said, if I read it correctly) can be whatever, but if she identifies as female, we respectfully call her a female. Also, your comment is very difficult to understand, so please use proper grammar and punctuation if you intend to comment further. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 02:27, 3 August 2015 (EDT)

well grammar and spelling has all ways been my week point so iam not the best when it comes to that sorry
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 50.101.48.236 (talk).

vivian's gender edition 647

so the gender section has some problems

In the Japanese version of Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, Vivian is depicted as a transgender woman.

yes, the character is transgender. she's a biological male who identifies as a woman. but the game doesn't actually treat her like that. she's routinely referred to as a male, both by other characters and by narration text

It is openly stated in Vivian's character description, which is translated as "One of the Shadow Trio, Vivian appears to be a girl but is really a boy." (in Japanese: 「カゲ三人組の一人だった　オンナのコのようで　ホントは　オトコのコ」). Additionally, Goombella's Tattle reads: "That's Vivian. Of the Shadow Trio, she's the youngest sister... er, brother." (in Japanese: 「『ビビアン』よ　カゲ三人組の一人で　いちばん下の妹　・・・じゃなくて　弟ね」)[1][2]. While Beldam uses the term "majotachi" (meaning a group of sorceresses) to refer to her, Marilyn and Vivian as a collective, she also objects to Vivian trying to call the collective 「カゲ三姉妹」 Kage Sanshimai, the "Three Shadow Sisters", correcting the name to the gender-neutral 「カゲ三人組」 Kage Sanningumi, the "Shadow Trio", reminding Vivian that she is an 「オトコ」 otoko, "boy", written in red katakana for emphasis[2].

the wiki acknowledges this, but the way the text is written makes it sound as if the game actually affirms vivian's gender identity at some unspecified point. i've never seen any evidence that this actually happens

However, in the end, Goombella's letter indicates that Vivian's choice to be identified as female is accepted by her sisters as part of their efforts to be nice to her after the events of the game[3][4].

in particular, this just seems to be totally made up. this is what goombella's letter actually says:

bibian wa oneesan tachi no tokoro ni modorimashita
vivian has returned to her sisters' house
kage no joou ga taosaretu ima majorin tachi wa mou warusa wo suru ki wa nai you desu
now that the shadow queen has been defeated, it seems beldam and marilyn have no more desire to do evil
sore to majorin ga nidoto bibian wo ijimenai tte atashi ni yakusoku shite kuremashita
and beldam has promised me that she will never bully vivian again
kore kara wa shimai (?) sannin de nakayoku kurashite iku deshou
from now on, it seems they will live together happily as three sisters (?)
tama ni wa mario mo bibian ni aini itte agete ne
why don't you visit vivian once in a while too, mario?

as you can see, nowhere is it even implied that they're going to respect vivian's identity. in fact, there's nothing to imply that either the characters or the developers understand trans issues well enough to even know what that means

In her Super Paper Mario Catch Card, Vivian is described as 「キュートな　オトコのコ」, which is most likely meant to be interpreted as "cute otokonoko", a term for male cross-dressers in Japanese culture (「男の娘」, literally "male girl"), although there is ambiguity here since plain ｢男の子｣ otoko no ko, "male child", sounds the same, and the line itself is written in phonetic katakana script rather than kanji, which was likely done on purpose; either way, the emphasis is that she is cute, but also physically male[5].

i disagree that "男の娘" is a more likely interpretation than "男の子". they're homophones, but 男の子 is a more common word than 男の娘 by several times.

so yeah i don't know. i feel like people for some reason want vivian's story to have been some great empowering narrative for the trans community that got censored by noa, but... it's really not, and this is wishful thinking at best - 2257^(Talk) 20:07, 10 April 2016 (EDT)

For Goombella's letter the part where it says that "it seems they will live together happily as three sisters (?)" seems to have that slight implication of gender acceptance (if I recall correctly, didn't the Shadow Sirens correct 'Shadow Sisters' to 'Shadow Trio'?). But again, this was written by Goombella, not Vivian. For the gender identity, how would you rewrite it to prevent misleading writing? It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:59, 11 April 2016 (EDT)

i don't disagree that that is a possible interpretation, but i feel like it is kind of out of step with what the rest of the game was saying about her. like, if the writers intended to acknowledge her as a transgender character, i really don't think they would have said "honto wa otoko no ko" ("in reality [she] is a boy") in her profile on the menu screen

regarding how to rephrase it, i'm not totally sure. i'm leery of the phrasing "Vivian is depicted as a transgender woman.". she certainly IS a transgender woman because she's a female-identified but biologically male person, but as far as i can tell the game never acknowledges that. now i haven't played the entire game through in japanese, so it's possible that there's a scene i don't know about where vivian's identity is affirmed. i doubt that, for all the reasons i've stated previously, but i'm not certain. what i can say for certain is that nothing the wiki cites justifies that position. i also think everything about the term 男の娘 (otoko no ko) ought to be excised. i really don't think there's any reason to imagine they meant this term rather than the more common homophone 男の子 (otoko no ko). especially considering that both otoko no ko and its female equivalent onna no ko are used together in vivian's original ttyd character profile

also, there's something i forgot to mention in my previous post. the article treats it as an incongruity that beldam allows the shadow sirens to be referred to as "a group of sorceresses", but objects to "three shadow sisters". i think this is only incongruous in translation. majo tachi is the term translated by the wiki as "a group of sorceresses", but this translation is not completely precise. actually, it's more accurate to translate majo tachi as "a group conceptually headed by a witch". so the group can legitimately be described as majo tachi regardless of whether vivian is a sorceress, because its leader, beldam, is a witch - 2257^(Talk) 23:24, 12 April 2016 (EDT)

I also think that's just one vague, unsupported line, but I'd imagine that's where the wiki romanticizing gender acceptance originated. You're right, the whole "in reality [she] is a boy" thing doesn't sound very accurate for a faithful depiction of a transgender character. I believe rather than saying "Vivian is depicted", we should add uncertainty to it such as "Vivian is depicted as a transgender woman, but the game never directly states it" or even "Vivian is strongly implied to be a transgender woman". I also agree, interpreting 「オトコのコ」 as 「男の娘」 (male cross-dresser) rather than the much more common 「男の子」 (male child) is an illogical stretch (the wiki even goes as far to emphasize by "most likely"), supported by its use in Vivian's original Thousand-Year Door profile. We can rewrite it to make a passing reference to the rarer 男の娘 but still strictly affirm and support 男の子.

For the alleged inconsistency between Beldam's reaction to "group of sorceresses" and "three shadow sisters", I'll have to heed to what you said on the inconsistency that's a result of translation and interpretation. That is, we'll have to remove instances of that. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 00:56, 13 April 2016 (EDT)

on another note, i have looked back through the edit history, and it seems that the idea that beldam decided to respect vivian's gender identity is actually based on the spanish localisation. it was added here, moved into the gender section here, and re-attributed to the japanese script here. the relevant line is "Y le prometió a Bibiana que no volvería a tratarla tan mal.", which means "and she promised vivian that she would not treat her so badly again". the issue is that the spanish script uses the word "tratarla" in reference to vivian, rather than its masculine equivalent "tratarlo". smashfan regarded this as a typo, but walkazo believed it was a deliberate attempt to show that beldam had switched from using masculine grammar to using feminine grammar when addressing vivian

i think this is probably the result of misunderstanding. when smashfan added the spanish dialogue, they for whatever reason chose to surround the word "tratarla" in «guillemets». guillemets are sometimes used as quotation marks in spanish, so doing that sort of made it look as if goombella meant to imply that beldam had actually used the word "tratarla" when making the promise to vivian. however, no guillemets are used for this line in the game. additionally, one would not use the word "tratarla", meaning "treat her" when making this promise directly to someone. one would instead say "tratarte", which means "treat you" and is gender neutral

i'm not 100% confident of my spanish though, so i would like to have someone more fluent comment on the accuracy of what i've said here. but regardless of whether the spanish line was a typo or a deliberate implication, the japanese line definitely does not include any equivalent. the only feminine term in that line is "shimai" (sisters) - 2257^(Talk) 07:36, 13 April 2016 (EDT)

Yes, as 22 pointed out, this is not Beldam talking directly at Vivian but rather Goombella saying Beldam promised not to treat Vivian so badly. I don't think this is a typo but it's Goombella talking and it doesn't mean Beldam referred to Vivian as female. Indeed, if Beldam were talking to Vivian, she would have used "tratarte", so from that line it's impossible to know how does Beldam refer to Vivian. I hope this answers the question. --™ The 'Shroom 13:56, 13 April 2016 (EDT)

since nobody has commented for a while, i drafted some changes to the gender section. some notes:

• not sure about the pictures. i thought i should include some pictures, since the current version has one, but in practice they might just look stupid. the current picture is even stupider, though, because the line it depicts wasn't even an insult in the japanese version, much less a gendered one. if we do keep the pictures, they should probably be replaced with higher quality versions, because right now they're both just frames from youtube videos
• i don't have a source for the german version. i just asked gabumon about it, and he said he thinks he remembers it this way. http://www.mariowiki.net/wiki/Barbara seems to bear him out, though. i'm sure there's some german lp of the game that we can cite, though
• i datamined goom goom's japanese dialog after bones mentioned it in chat. i don't have a video of him saying that
• i don't have any information at all about how she's depicted in the korean version, because i don't know anyone who speaks korean or is likely to have played the game.
• i think those are the only 7 languages the game has officially been released in
• in the translations i tried to avoided using any gendered words except when the original script used them, because earlier i used the word "she" in a translation and nabber took it as something that was in the japanese script, but it wasn't. this is very hard because gendered words are much more common and more frequently obligatory in english than in japanese. as a consequence, some of the translations might sound slightly odd

- 2257^(Talk) 17:57, 18 April 2016 (EDT) The OP here is right, the "transgender" bit is just fancruft that was being pushed by some freak somewhere on the internet. There was a similar rumor started about another minor Mario character (Birdo) which turned out to be bullshit as well and was never confirmed by Nintendo.

In the Japanese version, Vivian "identifies" as male, so the character is basically just an 'effimiante' male (aka a dandy, bishonen, etc) like Vega from Street Fighter; so this is really just like someone speculating the Vega in SF is "transgendered"; the fact that this trashy fancruft has been allowed to stay in the article is pretty pathetic, when it's pretty obvious that Nintendo themselves would deny it if it weren't for the fact that the Vivian character isn't notable enough for them to worry about.--Verita (talk) 01:42, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Attacks and Stats

Suggestion to homogenize that table with the tables of the other party members?

http://www.mariowiki.com/Ms._Mowz#Attacks_and_Stats

http://www.mariowiki.com/Koops#Attacks_and_stats

http://www.mariowiki.com/Goombella#Attacks_and_stats

Vivian's table uses asterisks, an explanation, and (an arguable) opinion. All of that could be taken out.

——01:35, 13 June 2016 (EDT)——

Actually, I think the other party members' tables can use some adjustment. The hitpoints should be in a separate table since they don't relate to the attacks strongly. Otherwise, I applied the changes. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 21:50, 13 June 2016 (EDT)

Trivia for Vivian's name in Spanish

Vivian's name in Spanish is "Bibiana", but the common translation for the name is "Viviana". Nevertheless I found out that there's a Spanish transgender woman called Bibiana Fernández. Could the translation also be a reference to irl Bibiana? Do you think it may be relevant enough to put it in the "Names in other languages" section? --Agc96 (talk) 12:04, 29 January 2017 (EST)

It depends on how common that name is and how significant this person is. Ray Trace^(T|C) 12:41, 29 January 2017 (EST)

It's not relevant, since the character was never transgender in the Japanese version, and likely wasn't even literally a male in that version either (referring to a woman as a man is a cultural insult in Japan); this was all basically debunked and was never confirmed as official by Nintendo, only a handful of internet weirdos and pervs seem to want to call the character "transgender", so this should be completely removed from the article as defamation towards Nintendo, the fact that the false "transgender" references are allowed to stay is a disgrace and if I was Nintendo, I'd sue.--Verita (talk) 02:28, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Article contains false information/fancruff regarding "transgender"

The Japanese version of the game does not state that the Vivian character is "transgender", it merely states that he is a "effeminate man" (aka a dandy, bishonen, etc). The "transgender" cruft is just original research devoid of facts; it would be like stating the Vega from Street Fighter is "transgendered" just because he displays some effiminate tendencies.

It's pretty obvious that this has never officially been confirmed by Nintendo and really just originates from some rumors and fancruft started by some internet weirdos, so it should probably be removed as defamatory.--Verita (talk) 01:38, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Also, for what it's worth, it's not even clear that Vivian was literally referred to as a man in the Japanese version to begin with; Beldam referring to a woman (Vivian) as a man in Japanese is culturally considered an insult, and the other in-game references are possibly just a continuation of this in-joke:

http://brokenbase.com/post/76043788098/is-vivian-from-paper-mario-transgender

Unless Nintendo has an official statement on it somewhere, this rubbish should be removed, since no one other than a handful of weirdos with too much time on their hands are trying to perpetuate this anyway; if I were Nintendo, I'd be suing for defamation that this is stated as some confirmed fact:

--Verita (talk) 02:18, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

"Defamation?" How is it "defamation" if a character can be reasonably interpreted from explicit dialog to be transgender, to say they're transgender? I'm transgender, and I don't know what all the fuss you're going over is about. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:42, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

The entire explanation for the content is up above. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 09:13, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Sorry, I kind of overreacted with my response given how much internet flaming has been raised over stuff like this, and it was excessive. My personal opinion is that Nintendo should officially confirm this before shoehorning it into the article, or else it would be just like stating that Vega from Street Fighter is "gay or transgender" just based on speculation.--Verita (talk) 17:01, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

FYI, unless you really have something to counter this point, bringing this stuff up is usually fruitless and actually goes against our courtesy policy. Honestly, just best to avoid it. If Nintendo says something about this in the future, someone will make a note of it. 17:04, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Well the "sources" in the article are just Youtube videos, and article I read (that I linked above) from another fan says he is unsure whether or not the game was literally saying Vivian is a man, or whether it was just an insult from Beldam; I'm not fluent in Japanese so I'm not sure; I just find it annoying that some folks are so obsessed with speculating on the 'sex lives' of minor video game characters from 10 years ago, I think the article should at least state that Nintendo's never officially confirmed anything rather than stating it as an 'offical fact' (e.x. there are fan theories that Vega in SF is gay, but since Capcom never confirmed it I don't think a SF article should state it as fact). But but fine, it's not worth arguing or insulting folks about.--Verita (talk) 17:08, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Sorry, but you're completely wrong on this: the first reference of the article is an essay written by Francesca Di Marco, one of the Italian translators of the game, which was then a Lecturer in Japanese Language and Modern History of Japan at the University of Perugia. In that essay she translated the sentences of the dialogue between Vivian and Beldam correctly and clearly stated what was the localization policy at the time, as well as the reasoning behind the Italian localization of said dialogue. By the way, transgenderism is explictily mentioned in said essay. So, there's that, more official than this you will hardly find, really.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:23, 14 September 2017 (EDT)

Proposed rewrite of the "Gender" section

Let me precede by saying that, yes, I'm aware that this is a controversial concept that has been heavily discussed on this page in the past. But controversy of a subject should not get in the way of the wiki's factual accuracy. The text as currently written describes Vivian as transgender in the Japanese version of the game, a classification that shows a lack of understanding of subtle aspects of Japanese culture. Vivian is intended to be a otoko no ko, a Japanese concept with no real Western equivalent (concepts like "cross-dresser" or "drag queen" are related but not identical). This is a male who dresses and sometimes acts like a girl, but still fully considers themselves to be male. It's effectively an extension of the modern Japanese fascination with the concept of kawaii (which is often translated as cute but again has no real Western equivalent).

Anyway, I've written a proposed rewrite of the "Gender" section of Vivian's page here (For convenience, citations have been removed. In the final version on the page, the citations should be retained in the same places they are now). This integrates the term otoko no ko more fully into the text while still acknowledging that the Italian localization team opted to present the concept as transgenderism. In addition to this rewrite, I feel that information on Vivian's gender identity/lifestyle choices should be removed from the intro paragraph (in other words, cut the last sentence of the intro). It's really more of a trivia point and shouldn't be one of the first things the reader is told about the character. For comparison, Birdo's article, which has far more complex issues related to gender, does not mention the subject at all in the article's intro.

Thoughts on the accuracy of my proposed revision compared to what is currently on the page? -- 1337star ^{(Mailbox SP)} 13:41, August 21, 2019 (EDT)

I'd suggest integrating your findings with what is written in this article, as it fully reports the reasons why the choices about the various localization were made. Keep in mind that the term otoko no ko was used in Super Paper Mario, at the time the material they had could not be used to unambiguously infer that Vivian was an otoko no ko.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:29, August 21, 2019 (EDT)

I skimmed that article but opted to ignore it as I'm not sure how we've come to the conclusion that the Francesca di Marco who wrote that article is the same as the one who worked on TTYD. It is a rather common Italian name from what I understand. Even if she is, I think she could really only be used as a reliable source on the thoughts of the Italian localization team, not the American team or the intentions of the original Japanese writers.

Nonetheless, what do you think of Version 2? It integrates comments from that page while I think making it more clear it represents a decision from the Italian localizers and not the original intended portrayal of the character (if nothing else, the show of defiance against her sisters is at odds with her portrayal in the rest of the game). However, I personally would not be comfortable using this over Version 1 unless it can be more concretely shown that that article was written by the same di Marco that worked on TTYD. I also implemented the references from the original page into both proposed versions. -- 1337star ^{(Mailbox SP)} 10:38, August 22, 2019 (EDT)

Looking at this resume, you can see that she is indeed her who translated Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (1998-2008 Localization Specialist in Japanese-Italian and English-Italian for Square-Enix, Nintendo, Pokémon Company, Codemasters, SCEE) and who wrote that article (2005–2009 SOAS PhD History of Modern Japan). Furthermore, while that article is indeed about localizations, your claim that it was exclusively related to the Italian localization is also incorrect, as you can see from this excerpt:

The game was rated as suitable for those aged 3 and over in Japan, and it aimed to obtain the same rating in the US and Europe. After having noticed the problem, localizers changed the original text in an attempt to maintain a ‘Japanese flavor’ (an unusual inclination towards sexual references and a captivating intercourse among the three sisters) whilst avoiding mention of transgenderism.

Therefore, you now should take that article into account when talking about localizations, while of course in terms of what the actual Japanese text says, we need to rely on the original text, and as LinkTheLefty (talk) pointed out, there's some ambiguity that we can't solve right now.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:35, August 24, 2019 (EDT)

The phrase otoko no ko (オトコのコ) is also used right in Vivian's party member description: 「カゲ三人組の一人だった　オンナのコのようで　ホントは　オトコのコ」 (and in Super Paper Mario as well). The katakana makes the meaning ambiguous - a quick search shows that Japanese websites go with either the kanji for otokonoko (男の娘) or boy (男の子), so I feel like the only way to really know what was meant for sure is to check an official guide or find a developer interview. The Italian translation article stating "In the original Japanese version of the game, it appears that Vivian is transgender." and further changing up the script to actually be more overt in the Italian version (e.g. “That’s true, you are two sisters… But I am a woman too now, and I’m proud to have turned into a woman!” was a direct statement that simply did not exist in the original text and is a case where the English version was closer in tone) can easily lead one to think it was localized into a concept more recognizable to a western audience, or at least to remove the ambiguity. However, if Vivian is intended to be an otokonoko, I should point something out: in the scene where Vivian gets the name of their group wrong, instead of "Shadow Beauties" (in the English version) Vivian refers to them as the 「三姉妹っ」 (Three Sisters) - and then later, during the ending, Goombella (whose Tattle concludes that Vivian is the group's younger brother) makes a confused reference to this line in her letter: 「これからは　姉妹（？）3人で　なかよく　くらしていくでしょう」 (From now on, the three sisters(?) will live peacefully.), though that question mark makes it inconclusive. Additionally, Clyde Mandelin seems to think that Vivian is supposed to be transgender and connects the use of the pronoun atai, but he makes the mistake of using Flea from Chrono Trigger as another example (in that game, he gets offended at being called a woman, so it's made clear immediately that's not exactly the case). So overall, with current knowledge, I believe the game's meaning of otoko no ko was intentionally designed to be ambiguous. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:02, August 22, 2019 (EDT)

Edited my proposed rewrite to take into account your points. I've also reduced it to a single version again since the Italian text alone is enough to support that Vivian is intended to be transgender in that version of the game. -- 1337star ^{(Mailbox SP)} 12:40, August 22, 2019 (EDT)