Talk:Big Cheep Cheep

First appearance

Apparently it appeared in Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventure, which was released before New Super Mario Bros. Seeing as this is the Mario wiki shouldn't it's first appearance in the Mario canon be its first appearance, or should it be its Zelda appearance? Yoshi876 (talk)

just put both. --Glowsquid (talk) 13:17, 22 April 2013 (EDT)

Just did some browsing and there is nothing on it Yoshi876 (talk)

Except on the Cheep-Cheep from the zelda wiki it mentions giant cheep-cheeps that appear in Four Swords Adventures. Marshal Dan Troop (talk)

But was it confirmed as a Mega Cheep-Cheep, for all we know, it's just a bog standard larger version and not a Mega one Yoshi876 (talk)

Iterations

So, as we know, Boss Bass/Big Bertha is called "Kyodai Pukupuku" (Giant Cheep Cheep) in Japanese, corresponding to "Kyodai" versions for Goombas, Troopas, and Piranha Plants that are around today and not particularly changed, using the identifier "Deka" (big). In English, these all formerly had very creative names, but now settle on a stock "Big" title. Deka Pukupuku, however, is physically quite different from Kyodai Pukupuku, with the old design instead going to Bakubaku. While it would seem odd that Boss Bass and Big Cheep are the same, a new factor was given to us recently: the related Porcupuffer, normally not the voracious sort, eats Mario like a Boss Bass or Cheep Chomp in Super Mario Maker 2. The point I believe this gives us is attributes of behavior are relative and subject to change per developers' whim. Boss Bass was always intended as a large version of the jumping Cheeps from SMB3 with the added detail of being able to eat Mario, while Big Bertha was a large version of the Cheeps that lazily swim back and forth, with the added detail of brooding Baby Cheeps. Heck, the Baby Cheeps themselves are proof that these are just giant Cheep Cheeps, as why would they brood a baby of a different species? The smooth fins are also just enlarged from Cheep Cheeps' own non-detailed sprite for that game, which I have worked on many, many times. As more proof, the filename for the NES Remix 2 stamp of Boss Bass is "PukupukuBig," being alongside "NokonokoBig" for Big Koopa Troopa. This means that Boss Bass is still considered the "big Cheep Cheep." Now, between Kyodai Pukupuku and Deka Pukupuku, there was also the "Ōkina Pukupuku" (as called by Message Block) in Yoshi's Story, which also means "Big Cheep Cheep." This I also believe to be an early iteration of Big Cheep Cheep; it's literally an enlarged version of the Cheep Cheep render model for the game, and the red ones act like Boss Bass, with a few minor differences to account for gameplay. This type of large Cheep Cheep also cameos in Mario Gold and Super Circuit, before the current iteration appears in Four Swords Adventures and New Super Mario Bros, where they are just an enlarged version of those games' non-carnivorous Cheeps. So what happened to the eating? It was given to the Bakubaku, which in turn would made more similar to the original Big Cheep Cheep, the Boss Bass. Bakubaku was never Kyodai Pukupuku; they were the same size as Pukupuku in SM64, after all.
Basically, what I'm getting to is this: both Boss Bass and Story Blurp are the same as Big Cheep Cheep and should be merged, ending this "fish" debacle once and for all. If Big Goombas can start reproducing by fission, Big Cheep Cheeps can get ahold of their appetites. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:25, September 1, 2019 (EDT)

I'm not too sure. I'm opposed to merge any of these, but i have no arguments. -- FanOfYoshi 07:54, September 7, 2019 (EDT)

As for the Boss Bass, i didn't pay attention, but i'm opposed to it anyways. See Kyodai Hanachan and Deka Hanachan. -- FanOfYoshi 08:17, September 7, 2019 (EDT)

With those, they are a distinctly different size anyways, and they aren't one of the things from SMB3, and there's that unused data thing with them. All the Kyodai of SMB3 are merged with the Deka of today.....except this. As for why you have no arguments, it's because there's no logical reason for them to stay split. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:11, September 7, 2019 (EDT)

Just because internal filename is "big" does not mean insta-merge. Nintendo tend to use filenames like this. (but other enemies are an incomparable situation). Blurp came out with two colors named differently, yet still lumped together, unlike Boss Bass and Big Cheep Cheep. And no, it's not because there's no logical reason to keep them split that i have no arguments, it's that i do want to counter your arguments, yet mines won't be valid with all what you said. It'll avoid speculation, unlike merging. -- FanOfYoshi 08:14, September 8, 2019 (EDT)

There is, however, logical progression with the enemy evolution - Boss Bass / Big Bertha is treated as the giant counterpart of Cheep Cheep in the original game, whose trademark behavior went to the large Cheep Cheep with a color variation (in Yoshi's Story design), which lost the behavior but stayed as a big Cheep Cheep in newer games (in traditional design). Yoshi's Story is effectively the missing link here, where they changed it to be a scaled-up Cheep Cheep but still had Boss Bass behavior. As for the internal filename being "big" not meaning insta-merge, in normal cases there'd be room for doubt - but that sidesteps the fact that the file was named within the original game's context over 25 years later, and the developers could have simply named it "bakubaku" like just about every other modern instance of Cheep Chomp. Yes, there is an exception with Wiggler due to circumstances (which, by the way, does not have this filename oddity), but on the other hand, look at an article like Mega Block (which shares the same "big" Japanese descriptors as the merged Big Cheep Cheep article would have). Honestly, I wasn't on board with this idea at first, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:32, September 8, 2019 (EDT)

Exactly! I've been entertaining this thought for quite some time myself, but didn't want to go through with it without knowing the file name for NES Remix 2 (as pointed out previously, there's no "conceptual" in this case due to being based off a game that's multiple decades old) or actual textual proof that the "Blurps" were meant to be the same as Boss Bass and Big Cheep (which I now have). At this point, I see no reason to keep them split other than to make things "easy" at the cost of being less accurate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:57, September 8, 2019 (EDT)

Hmmm... -- FanOfYoshi 02:04, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

Just chiming in to say I'd also be in favor of a merge. Niiue - Who has lost his tail? 04:04, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

Thanks, anyone else who supports or opposes, please chime in too so I can tell how popular this is. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:37, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

I think the Yoshi's Story Blurps are Big Cheep Cheeps, as regular ones appeared in that game and had the same design, except obviously smaller, so I support that being merged (Also, I think their appearance in Mario Golf should just be merged with Cheep Cheep). As for Boss Bass, I'm not really all that sure, but I'm thinking no on that one for now, since they do act different and have a different design (distorted pupils, bigger mouth, smaller fins). --DeepFriedCabbage 16:43, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

The fins proportional to the main Cheep Cheep's would take more tiles to animate, which on the NES is a major factor. Note how Big Koopa Troopa had a disproportionately large shell compared to the normal one. As for the big mouths, that's just behavioral, and the Story red ones act basically the same. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:08, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

So that leaves the distorted pupils, which could be a minor design change... --DeepFriedCabbage 17:41, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

The eyes already had to be scrunched a little to make room for the mouth, and probably to make it clear from the get-go they were dangerous. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:58, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

The only way i can see a merge working, is if the wording is handled similarly to what we have currently in the Bull's-Eye Bill page. -- FanOfYoshi 06:29, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

Except it's not an inspiration or divergence, it's the same thing with different behavior and a redesign. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:34, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

I think we can do it that way if it's easier to follow, though in regards to the idea of merging one but not the other, I think the case for merging both is stronger because a visible evolution would be seen in the merged article. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:42, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

The Yoshi's Story Big Cheep Cheeps have a name, Big Blurp (or just Blurp), so I'd be wary of merging them. Boss Bass can be merged, it's just a Big Cheep Cheep that can eat you. TheDarkStar 11:41, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

"Blurp" seems to be just that the translators misread "Pukupuku" as "Bukubuku." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:44, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

That doesn't change the fact that they have a name that isn't Big Cheep Cheep, in-game. I stand by my thoughts on the whole Bull's-Eye Bill fiasco: using a Japanese source before an English one to determine if an enemy is related to another, when the wiki prioritizes English sources, is ridiculous. TheDarkStar 11:47, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

It is actually a pretty common mistake even for professional translators to misread Japanese diacritics, which is how Cheep Cheep kept getting confused with Blurp for a while (it's not an issue exclusive to Yoshi's Story). Also, in response to the "ridiculousness" of using Japanese sources on an English wiki - the entire Mario franchise is, predominantly, a Japanese franchise. Yes, there are select games made by western developers, but that's the exception, not the rule. Just as we prioritize English sources from western-made games (the minority), we prioritize Japanese sources from Japanese-made games (the majority). Inconsistent translation is also the reason for most (but not all) name changes, not accounting for previous localizations, and thus strictly adhering to localization would cause needless confusion. Let others be concerned with "Englishness" of their own wikis; that's not how we handle things here. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:42, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

Also note how Galoombas had, in English, "a name that wasn't [Galoomba] in-game," but that doesn't mean it should be split. Heck, so did Cheep Cheep itself. And that's not even getting into when it is and isn't hyphenated. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:34, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

I'd be fine with merging them, then. TheDarkStar 13:56, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

So we seem to agree on merging Blurp... Although I'm still not sure about Boss Bass. Are there any official sources that describe them as Cheeps, but bigger? --DeepFriedCabbage 15:22, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

As previously stated, their NES Remix 2 filename is literally "PukupukuBig," which given the nearly 30-year gap means they still consider them the same. They're in the same boat as the other "big" enemies from SMB3, even though they never appeared alongside them in-game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:58, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

I don't think an internal filename should be considered one of our most valid sources... Also, what do you mean as "being in the same boat"? Are they classified as big enemies somewhere? I'm not completely against the merge, but I'd like some more proof if I were to support it... --DeepFriedCabbage 16:13, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

A filename isn't a great source if it's a wholly-new game, where their vision from the outset may be different from the final product, like this, this, this, this, this, or this, but again, I must iterate: this is taken wholesale from a game that was over 25 years old at that point, meaning their vision for it was pretty well set in stone. Anyways, as proof that they were considered "large Cheep Cheeps" at the time, one is used as Giant Land's representative for the credits of SMB3 (despite not appearing in gameplay there). And again, it's an edited version of a scaled-up sprite for that game, including the smooth fins. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:18, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

Okay, I think a merge would be fine. I also forgot about them being associated with Giant Land in the credits. --DeepFriedCabbage 16:35, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

A wording similar to the Bull's-Eye Bill page could work to more easily follow how big variants of Cheep Cheeps have evolved over time. -- FanOfYoshi 05:13, September 13, 2019 (EDT)

I also noticed that the Boss Bass's other appearances were merged with Cheep Chomp. Is there a source for them being the same? --DeepFriedCabbage 14:51, September 13, 2019 (EDT)

The Japanese name is Bakubaku, and they predate it being colored purple. Note that the SM64DS and NSMB ones are literally the same model but recolored. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:07, September 13, 2019 (EDT)

Is a proposal necessary? There has been a major agreement on merging Boss Bass (and Big Bertha), and the Blurps here. -- FanOfYoshi 02:03, September 17, 2019 (EDT)

Given how much of a point of contention it's been in the past, then yes. I'd like to get at least a few more people saying something one way or the other before I do anything, though. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:15, September 17, 2019 (EDT)

Now that we have further evidences, i'd agree merging it, and explaining how it has evolved. I'd also wait for more consensus to show up first. -- FanOfYoshi 10:20, September 17, 2019 (EDT)

Alternatively, Boss Bass is Cheep Chomp and had some twists and turns in transition to its current appearance, while Big Cheep Cheep is a new enemy taking the place as a big variant of Cheep Cheep. Big Blurps could be either, not really sure about which, since they came after Bakubaku but have its man-eating trait, or maybe it's just a big Cheep Cheep variant of Yoshi's Story. SmokedChili (talk) 09:25, September 18, 2019 (EDT)

But again, Nintendo seems to currently consider Boss Bass to be the same as Big Cheep Cheep given the internal name in the NES Remix games. It seems at this point like after SM64DS decided to mix up the two similar creatures (like with the monkeys), they just kept the traits they shared to the SM64 enemy while making Big Cheep Cheep more like a big Cheep Cheep. (This would be so much easier if they'd decided to color Cheep Chomp orange in NSMB instead of purple...) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:28, September 18, 2019 (EDT)

Or the internal names are like that in respect to the source material they're used for and have no bearing on other iterations, much like how "Bowser's kids the Koopalings" story is still used in SMB3 related stuff like in this 30th anniversary feature from Famitsu. We know they're Bowser's kids there, but we also know that's not the current story, so it has to be specifically SMB3 stuff. So for Boss Bass, it was given the internal name based on its Japanese SMB3 name. But its similarity to Cheep Chomp in behavior and appearance, not to mention the link via Yoshi's Island DS, are more proof than an internal name, which are something only this wiki appears to consider for connecting subjects on a grander scale. SmokedChili (talk) 14:36, September 18, 2019 (EDT)

How about the Yoshi's Story ones? For the record, it's not just "Blurp," it's "Big Blurp." The site used just "Blurp" to fit in with its storybook rhyme. Anyways, they're just "Big Pukupuku" there, act like Boss Bass, but look like big Cheep Cheeps. Additionally, why would they care about following the story at the time in a thing that's not even viewable without external hardware not intended to be used for simply playing the games? Cheep Chomp is less the "current iteration of Boss Bass" and more "the dumpster they put all of Big Cheep Cheep's old annoying traits." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:05, September 18, 2019 (EDT)

Actually, checking through some Japanese YS videos made me notice how spaces are a common feature in the writing of the game. This writing style is important, because it disproves "Ookina Pukupuku" as a name since adjectives are very often separated with spaces, and おおきな プクプク is written just like that. Thus the context of the English message box should be "a big Blurp" instead of "a Big Blurp", and all they have for Japanese names are "Akapuku" and "Aopuku" from the guides. SmokedChili (talk) 10:33, September 19, 2019 (EDT)

If they're so common by the game's standards, why is that disproving? And even if it's not technically a name, the role is still there, and the description is essentially the same as the ones with actual names. That it's described as such and acts like a gameplay-altered Boss Bass can't be coincidence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:52, September 19, 2019 (EDT)

Point is that whenever a Japanese text has so many spaces, it's to make the text easy to read especially for children. But whenever we see names for Mario characters, they are always written together, as is Japanese text in general. Just try look at the Japanese Yoshi's Story character and enemy lists. The fact that none of the names have spaces in them makes おおきな プクプク all the more suspect. As for the role, just because something from game 1 shares the role with something else from game 2 and the former is even based on the latter means nothing if the end product is different. Like Rotten Mushroom, known internally as "Poison Mushroom". So while Akapuku and Aopuku are the big YS Cheep Cheeps, just because they're similar to Boss Bass, the SMB3 big Cheep Cheep, doesn't make the two the same. On the other hand, by your logic, that Bubba/Cheep Chomp is described as such and acts and looks like an altered Boss Bass can't be coincidence. SmokedChili (talk) 12:18, September 19, 2019 (EDT)

OK. Regarding the YIDS one, this was after Baku had been made to look like the SMB3 enemy in 64DS and the "literally just a giant Cheep Cheep" iteration of the "big Cheep counterpart" concept had been established, not to mention Yoshi's Island loaned enemies tend to act off (looking at you, Piranha Plant). Still good points. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:01, September 19, 2019 (EDT)

Hmmm... The Rotten Mushroom concept. -- FanOfYoshi 02:16, September 20, 2019 (EDT)

Further info: in the Game & Watch Gallery 2 iteration of Parachute, a Cheep Cheep that is identified as a simple, generic Cheep Cheep appears with Boss Bass's attack, jumping low out of the water, mouth agape in ordr to eat people. Furthermore, it looks just like the SMW Cheep Cheep when not jumping, but looks like a Boss Bass (complete with angry squint) when jumping, supporting that Boss Bass is just intended as a large Cheep Cheep. Heck, normal Cheep Cheeps jumped with mad squints and open mouths in SMW2 as well. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:19, October 12, 2019 (EDT)

They squint in Yoshi's Island? I didn't see that detail. -- FanOfYoshi 12:25, October 13, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah, whenever they jump in a sideways arc with an engine-rotated sprite. See here, right next to the Jean de Fillet. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:17, October 13, 2019 (EDT)

As current discussion is going on with certain ideas such as "Rotten Mushroom concept" (which is also the case for Dragoneels), i think that i'm going to think a little bit. -- FanOfYoshi 02:08, October 17, 2019 (EDT)

You don't need to use quotes when you're the only one who's referred to it by that name (which is also strange since it's far from the first or even most notable example....) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:16, October 17, 2019 (EDT)

Anyways, a proposal might be necessary at this point. -- FanOfYoshi 05:12, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

No. You may have a case for merging Blurp with Boss Bass, or maybe Boss Bass with Cheep Chomp, but the two and Big Cheep Cheep are completely different. While Boss Bass and Blurp can eat the player character, Big Cheep Cheep is simply a big Cheep Cheep. Its Japanese name being the same as Boss Bass's doesn't make it the same character. The attributes are completely different. 18:01, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

Boss Bass wasn't interested in eating the player while underwater. It was passive underwater, like SMB3 Cheep Cheeps, and aggressive on the surface, again like SMB3 Cheep Cheeps. And besides, since when do normal Cheep Cheeps swell and explode violently? Short answer: they don't. They continue to have unique properties, but they no longer have the "eating" one, because it was given to that now-purple creature that was once based off the SMW Blurp. Following your logic, perhaps we should split Grand Goomba from Big Goomba, since, ahem, "while Big Goomba can split into smaller Goombas, Grand Goomba just gets crushed immediately upon being stomped." Additionally, as I pointed out above, Porcupuffer has now been a quick surface-swimmer, Spike Bass, literally a big Cheep Cheep, and Cheep Chomp. These are very different properties (and even the same differences!) and I don't see you wanting to move them either. I've already addressed this and you argue points I disproved in the opening argument. Sorry if this is coming off as rude, but this just annoys me extraordinarily that you'd just give a blunt "no" followed by arguments I addressed a month ago, something I personally find to be extraordinarily rude. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:54, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

Sorry for the bluntness, I didn't intend for that to be rude. I just state what I have in mind. I also didn't read the entire conversation, because it's incredibly large, so I was just going off of the first paragraph, but I may have misunderstood some things.

I never encountered a Boss Bass underwater, you might be thinking of Cheep Chomp or Big Bertha. Boss Bass has only been a surface fish so far, while Big Cheep Cheeps cover both fields. Yes, Big Cheep Cheeps have gained additional properties, but one thing I don't recall Big Cheep Cheep doing is eating the player character in any of its appearances. Since Cheep Chomp's introduction, that trait has been only applied to it, effectively replacing or is the same thing as Boss Bass.

For Porcupuffer, it's obviously the same character with the same design, it just gained a few new traits over the years. I don't know why you would think I'd want to split that. Probably the same thing with Big Goomba. 20:52, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

...

Big Bertha is underwater Boss Bass. We merged them months ago. Boss Bass is a large counterpart behaviorally to the red Cheeps in SMB3, Big Bertha is for the green Cheeps (despite being red, likely because a green mouth interior would look weird). Anyways, Cheep Chomp, from what I can tell, was intended to be derived from Blurp in development (hence the specs in 64, the fact that its JP name looks more like that of Blurp's, and that the "Cheep Cheeps" in SM64 look more like orange Blurps, probably getting a name change in late development). Regardless, the NES Remix file name is also there for you to consider (PukupukuBig instead of Bakubaku, though it has been noted this might be a time capsule effect). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:00, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

"We merged them months ago." My bad, I didn't notice that. I thought we still had that as a separate article. I apparently took no part in the proposal that merged them, for some reason, and never had a reason to look up Big Bertha since then until now. But that just seems confusing to me, merging four characters into one (Big Cheep Cheep, YS Blurp, Boss Bass, and Big Bertha). Doesn't that just seem like too much? 21:09, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

Could say the same about normal Cheep Cheep. Aside from Cheep Cheep/Cheep-Cheep, it's been Goby, Flopsy Fish, Bub, and Bubba, most of which have varying stylizations just like the above four. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:43, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah, Big Bertha was most likely intended to replace the passive-agressive Green ones. -- FanOfYoshi 06:39, October 29, 2019 (EDT)

I don't agree with any of this (retroactively disagreeing with the Boss Bass/Big Bertha merge), but a proposal should happen at this point. 21:28, October 29, 2019 (EDT)

Why don't you? If Boss Bass and Big Bertha shouldn't be merged, neither should the jumping and swimming Cheep Cheeps from SMB3, since they're enlarged versions of those with an extra quirk added to not be boring. They use the exact same sprites, even! Why some people prefer to base all view on the subject off flavorful Nintendo Power text from the 80s that has been long since abandoned in official lore and contradicted the language of origin even back then is beyond baffling to me. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:48, October 29, 2019 (EDT)

Same. I am extremely baffled by that. And yes, they should have been merged in the first place ever since we discovered its Japanese name. Not keeping ONE and the same enemy with a different behavior and English name separate. -- FanOfYoshi 08:29, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

Different English name and different behavior usually means split, not merge. I don't see any reason as to why these should be merged. They all have differing behavior and English names, and merging something based on the Japanese name alone is ridiculous. I'm for splitting Big Bertha and Boss Bass. TheDarkStar 09:30, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

The only thing that seems to be the same to me is the Japanese name, and in my opinion, they should keep separate pages due to their different English names and behaviors. At this point, as proposal needs to be created to make an actual decision. --TheFlameChomp (talk) 09:58, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

Your arguments are based on speculation. This is a Japanese series. -- FanOfYoshi 10:02, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

Reasons for merging Big Bertha with Boss Bass are already explained in the proposal. The only thing to add is, if Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia was properly localized, it would still list them together. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:07, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

@FOY: While Mario may be a Japanese series, this is an English wiki. Therefore, basing a merge solely on a Japanese name is ridiculous. also it's "subjective", not "speculative" TheDarkStar 10:12, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

Again, I differ you to Cheep/Flopsy Fish/Bub, all of which have been merged. Boss Bass and Big Bertha are from the same game and, ahem, use the same graphics, and if this is about the Big Cheep and Boss Bass, you said above you'd be fine with merging them, TDS. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:13, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

Since no one is checking the proposal for its opening statement, I'd just like to ask TheDarkStar which one Template:Media link - which seems newly drawn for the "English" guide - is supposed to be. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:20, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

Well, it looks like a Boss Bass, but the Baby Cheep nearby shows that it's a Big Bertha. (As an aside, I'd be perfectly fine with merging all this into Boss Bass, which has actually tried to devour Mario, unlike Big Cheep Cheeps.) TheDarkStar 10:24, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

Large-sized normal Cheeps have. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:26, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

The problem with declaring it as Boss Bass or Big Bertha, if split, is that this merged depiction does not cleanly fit into either ("English") description for them. See what I'm getting at? LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:35, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

I had supported the proposal to merge Boss Bass and Big Bertha due to their similar appearances and certain resources seeming to support that they were the same, but I oppose merging them with Big Cheep Cheep, as I feel the only similarity is the Japanese name. --TheFlameChomp (talk) 10:32, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

The behavior's been replaced with a less-creative one, but conceptually, they are the same thing (an enlarged Cheep Cheep). Besides, how about how the mistranslated "Blurps" are literally just an enlarged Cheep Cheep that acts like a Boss Bass? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:40, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

As, sorry, TheFlameChomp. I misunderstood your argument, which could have made me confused if i remembered that you participated. -- FanOfYoshi 11:53, October 30, 2019 (EDT)

Previous agreement was more than the disagreement, if you want to know. -- FanOfYoshi 03:31, October 31, 2019 (EDT)

I'll do my best to summarize since this somehow got on the topic of Boss Bass and Big Bertha. Let me just clarify that it's not just Japanese names being the reason they are merged (since having the same name alone is not enough); it is the fact that they are treated as the same thing in numerous profiles, have Template:Media link that blur the lines even in the English localization, and are intended to be larger versions of the game's ordinary Cheep Cheeps (which themselves have behavioral variations). While we can't cite it, I'd even say Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia handled it pretty well in this instance, under Boss Bass on page 50: "It swims along the surface of the water and attacks by jumping. If found underwater, call them Big Berthas." (I'd venture a guess that this may have been the work of the book's less infamous translator.) Also, a correction: Bubba / Cheep Chomp is indeed bigger than Bub / Cheep Cheep in Super Mario 64 and Super Mario 64 DS. With that out of the way, to be honest, I can see the arguments for what to do with Boss Boss in relation to Big Cheep Cheep and Cheep Chomp.

The first piece of evidence is that the internal filename for the Boss Bass stamp in NES Remix 2 is content/Heri2/cmn/miiverse/HankoTgaUSEU.zlarc/Hanko_SMB3_PukupukuBig.tga (and it's the same in NES Remix Pack). Piranhacus Giganticus / Big Piranha Plant and Grand Goomba / Big Goomba have similar treatment. However, there could be other reasons for this rather than deliberately connecting with Big Cheep Cheep; for instance, "Big" could just be an oversimplified translation of Kyodai rather than "Giant", which may have also partially been the reason why Giant Land was known as Big Island. It should also be noted that internal naming conventions are all over the place in the NES Remix games and include a mix of old and new names in addition to regional versions, although regarding Super Mario Bros. 3 content specifically, it does use the original Japanese names outside of the big enemies (for example, Ultimate NES Remix uses SMB3_M_ATK_FATBROS_W4.Crsm for Sledge Brother, as opposed to Mega Bros). So it is certainly worth considering, but we shouldn't put too much stock in it by itself.

Secondly, the appearance of big "Blurps" in Yoshi's Story can show that such an evolution took place. These Cheep Cheeps mostly look like larger versions of the game's Cheep Cheeps, but the red one has behavior that is much more reminiscent of Boss Bass. Additionally, a Japanese Message Block header describes it as 「おおきな　プクプク」 (Ōkina Pukupuku, "Large Cheep Cheep"), where the English text describes it as "Big Blurp". It should be noted that, as mentioned by SmokedChili, this is technically not its name, but it does at least indicate its role and function in my opinion.

Third, as Doc explains, the behavior of Cheep Cheeps in general is fluid and not wholly constant. As such, even regular Cheep Cheeps among others have demonstrated biting behavior and other characteristics generally thought to be specific to Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp. That said, I believe that the reason for Cheep Chomp's background cameo in Super Mario Maker 2 is a developer's joke of Porcupuffer taking on its usual traits. As an aside, Cheep Chomp's internal name in this game has not been found yet (it could be of interest if there is some remnent of Boss Bass), but it could literally be part of the background and not a separate file.

On the other hand, there have been attempts to merge Boss Bass with Cheep Chomp in the past, but for the sake of brevity and time, I'll just point to the latest proposal. I also want to add that, while it isn't explicitly stated as it isn't entirely comprehensive with listing every single appearance, I do find the Super Mario Pia description of Cheep Chomp as 「巨大なプクプク」 (remarkably similar to the Japanese name of Boss Bass) to be fairly suspicious. Lastly, I would be remiss if I did not mention that Kyodai Hanachan set a certain precedent that not every Kyodai (Giant) subject must be shared with its Dai / Deka (Big) counterpart, despite the terminology being used somewhat interchangeably.

Given the above, I believe a proposal should use multiple options: merge Boss Bass and Blurp (Yoshi's Story) together with Big Cheep Cheep, merge Boss Bass with Cheep Chomp, or simply consider Boss Bass to be a predecessor to both Big Cheep Cheep and Cheep Chomp, with room to decide what to do about the Yoshi's Story Blurps in a follow-up proposal if one of the latter two are chosen. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:00, November 3, 2019 (EST)

I'd vote for it being a precedor. -- FanOfYoshi 11:30, November 3, 2019 (EST)

There is the additional issue with Big Cheep Cheep being used as an obstacle in a Yoshi's Story-inspired stage in a Mario & Sonic game, as seen here, which could be a nod to/appearance of "Blurp." At the same time, the same challenge includes an enlarged Bullet Bill that isn't Banzai Bill, so that might not be the best example. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:50, November 4, 2019 (EST)

Does that Cheep Cheep try to swallow characters whole? LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:07, November 5, 2019 (EST)

I don't think so, which is another reason I'm less inclined to believe that one's an intentional callback. A the same time, that might be too "overpowered" for that role. As an additional note, I'm curious over he Japanese script for the hints in the Abandon Ship and Cheep Cheep Chase minigames, as the behavior (especially in the former) is a dead ringer for the "aggressive" type of Boss Bass. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:49, November 5, 2019 (EST)

Clarification on Super Mario Pia: The line about Cheep Chomp is in its entirety 「巨大なプクプクの仲間」, which would be "a giant Cheep Cheep member". The Japanese SMB3 manual uses the same wording 仲間達 nakama-tachi for Piranha Plant and Hammer Bro. variants, with 達 used for pluralization. The same scan also has Piranha Plant's bio which names Big Piranha Plant and Prickly Piranha Plant, and the former is called 「巨大なでかパックンフラワー」. SmokedChili (talk) 09:31, November 5, 2019 (EST)

I see. There's also the concept of Sledge Bro not being just a big Hammer Bro, but it's not comparable with Boss Bass. -- FanOfYoshi 10:29, November 12, 2019 (EST)

How much options will the proposal need? -- FanOfYoshi 04:16, November 24, 2019 (EST)

I'm not quite sure. I'm considering putting it on the Blurp page as it seems that's the least likely to be controversial. They would be 1: Merge to both Big Cheep Cheep and Boss Bass, 2: Merge only to Boss Bass, 3: Merge only to Big Cheep Cheep, 4: Merge Boss Bass and Big Cheep Cheep and leave Blurp unmerged, and 5: Do nothing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:35, November 24, 2019 (EST)

Seems good to me. -- FanOfYoshi 11:26, December 31, 2019 (EST)

Anyways, this discussion hasn't been on since November, hence why i'm opening it. Also, it's unsettled. -- FanOfYoshi 08:42, January 2, 2020 (EST)

OK, well having played SMM2 now and making a whole level themed after Porcupuffer, I'm once again assured this is the right path. If Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp were the same thing, they'd have used it for the enemy instead, since on the surface it acts like Boss Bass and below it acts like Cheep Chomp. Why give some other enemy both behaviors if they were both the behaviors of one enemy to begin with? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:13, January 2, 2020 (EST)

I don't know. -- FanOfYoshi 08:21, January 3, 2020 (EST)

Something that still puzzles me is the Bessie Bass situation. A basic fact about the Yoshi's Island series bosses is that, generally speaking, they are larger versions of regular enemies. Big enemies that already exist, like Big Boo and Hefty Goonie, become even larger, meaning that it's not the regular variant in those cases that transform into bigger versions. Since Big Cheep Cheep doesn't appear in these games (having only appeared in a platformer months prior), and Boss Bass is meant to be the equivalent of a big/giant Cheep Cheep, it makes sense that Bessie Bass represents both Cheep Cheep and Boss Bass - except that the game's Boss Bass is supposed to be Cheep Chomp. What if Boss Bass was not a misnomer, but rather the localization's way of directly interpreting Cheep-Chomp as Boss Bass, deciding to simply translate it by the then-more popular name? Granted, things could have changed by then and maybe they would have done stuff differently now, but if that was their thought process, it suggests that Cheep Chomp is a rename that is a result of the more standard Big Cheep Cheep soon completely supplanting Boss Bass as the large variant (with Bubba possibly a remnant of when the Super Mario 64 fish were designed as Blurp-like), or at least it may have been the stance at the time. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:10, January 3, 2020 (EST)

I pretty much doubt so. -- FanOfYoshi 11:04, January 4, 2020 (EST)

It wouldn't be entirely unprecedented if that were the case. Recall the Grinder situation. When Ukkiki/Ukiki was introduced in Super Mario 64, it seemed to be based on an older enemy but otherwise appeared to be a new one (although this may have been the result of N64 graphics at the time). Later, Ukiki was given Grinder's design in the DS remake, which soon stuck around, and then took Grinder's role in the Yoshi games, effectively merging them. In this scenario, Bubba/Cheep Chomp was also intended to be a new enemy directly based on an older one, but then in the DS remake onwards, it was given a design closer to Boss Bass in an attempt to remove Blurp-like features and consolidate them. The finer details aren't precisely the same, but there are enough similarities to draw comparisons. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:49, January 5, 2020 (EST)

As for Ukiki, it had some details that hinted that it was intended to be similar, such as the cat-like mouth, similar appearance to the in-game sprite, etc. -- FanOfYoshi 08:01, January 5, 2020 (EST)

The monkey also had both names in use simultaneously at one point (Yoshi's New Island), so I realize that it's not a perfect parallel, but I think it's at the very least possible that Bakubaku and Boss Bass were considered one and the same during the brief period it was colored red rather than purple. This might explain the replacement of the big Cheep Cheep with the red Bakubaku in Banshee Boardwalk. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:26, January 5, 2020 (EST)

Like I've been saying, 64DS conflated a lot with its redesigns. They may have tried to consider them the same at that point, but Nintendo since undid that by making a "normal" Big Cheep Cheep and recoloring Cheep Chomp. So they consider 64DS-Baku different from Boss Bass in hindsight, sorta like renaming Kuromame to Keronpa Ball. The monkeys, however, got so thoroughly entwined it doesn't seem Nintendo's too sure where to draw the line. Anyways, regarding the fish, the 64DS devs probably thought it should be the same as "Big Pukupuku," while the NSMBDS devs decided it shouldn't, despite using the same model. The SM64DS enemy may have been "Big Pukupuku" in that narrow window of time, but further developments on the species retroactively made it different. Sort of a development retcon, like (with the example FoY likes to use) a nonspecific variant of Boo Guy being later specified as "Relay Heiho." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:24, January 5, 2020 (EST)

There is still this nugget that describes Cheep Chomp as 「巨大なプクプク」 (Kyodai na Pukupuku), which is almost certainly a deliberate reference to 「巨大プクプク」 (Kyodai Pukupuku), the Japanese name of Boss Bass. Super Mario Pia might not have the best track record when it comes to precisely listing appearances, but I imagine the descriptions themselves probably came from Nintendo officially instead of being newly written up by Pia. Note that the book dates after Cheep-Chomp was established with its modern purple coloration (which might have initially been to better distinguish it from Mega Cheep-Cheep on a Nintendo DS screen rather than to intentionally distance itself from the red-colored design), though it may have been taken from an earlier source. Also, the idea of a "development retcon" is interesting - if that is indeed the case with Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp, how can you be sure that it has not happened with the reinvented Big Cheep Cheep? LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:13, January 15, 2020 (EST)

Because of the NES Remix thing. While I acknowledge a similar case exists with the Sledge Bros., giving the old name when it's currently the name of a totally different enemy doesn't make sense. And given the original idea for Boss Bass itself was "large Cheep Cheep with no-frills name (in language of origin), a concept shared with modern Big Cheep Cheep but not Cheep Chomp, the entity "Big Pukupuku" simply had its unique aspects (which ultimately amounts to "a slightly altered version of the game's normal Cheep Cheep behavior and an altered design to facilitate that") given to a different enemy. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:52, January 15, 2020 (EST)

Regarding NES Remix - it's definitely possible that the developers were deliberately connecting the original Kyodai Pukupuku / Boss Bass with the modern Dai/Deka Pukupuku / Big Cheep Cheep. It's also certainly possible that indieszero was only working within the scope of Super Mario Bros. 3, as research on newer games may not have been part of the assignment given by Nintendo, and the Japanese developers loosely translated Kyodai as "Big" in English rather than the standard "Giant" definition, explaining the Super Mario Bros. 3-related filenames and causing PukupukuBig to be incidental. At this juncture, it's hard to discount either possibility. Given the convoluted developmental history, couldn't one also make the case that red Bakubaku = Boss Bass = Big Cheep Cheep, with original Bakubaku (Bubba) and purple Bakubaku (Cheep Chomp) perhaps as their own offshoots? LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:55, January 15, 2020 (EST)

Problem with that is that the SM64DS Red Baku and the NSMB Purple Baku literally share a model and programming (other than adapting it to a 2D plane). The original Baku acted a lot more effectively than the one in the remake, admittedly, but that seems simply the logical thing to do with an already-OP enemy on a system with a handicapped control scheme. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:23, January 15, 2020 (EST)

Speaking of the reskin, did the fins also change? -- FanOfYoshi 04:48, February 2, 2020 (EST)

Yeah, SM64 had all Cheep fins red and blurp-like, SM64DS made the side ones wingy, the tail fins three-lobed and yellow, and gave the final version of the iconic yellow mohawk dorsal fin. For reference, in SMB3, they were all round, blunt, and white, while NSMB used the same models as SM64DS while recoloring Baku's dorsal. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:10, February 2, 2020 (EST)

I actually mean between SM64DS and NSMB Bakubaku. -- FanOfYoshi 11:55, February 15, 2020 (EST)

Oh, they did not. aside from color of dorsal and tail. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:58, February 15, 2020 (EST)

Another thing: in the Super Mario Maker games, enemies and objects are generally very design-accurate to the game styles. There's some remarkable attention to detail overall, such as Rocky Wrench originally having a shell up to a point or Hammer Bro becoming a Sledge Bro instead of a "Big Hammer Bro"  when enlarged. Despite this, Big Cheep Cheep in Super Mario Bros. 3 style looks standard and doesn't resemble Boss Bass. I find this a strange omission given the other Cheep Cheep skins. Would you consider this an oversight, or is there something to it? LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:52, February 18, 2020 (EST)

Note how Big Goombas split in two. Can't talk now, get back to you later. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:24, February 18, 2020 (EST)

OK, I'm back now, so time for excruciating detail. The "big" enemies in SMM are all based off the NSMBU versions when applicable, with the sole exception of Big Deep Cheep and another type of exception covered below. This is why Sledge Bro still looks different, because as of NSMBU, it's still distinct-looking. Additionally, the amount of enemies that actually change functionally between styles is quite small, those being Bowser, Goomba/Galoomba, Koopa Troopa, Piranha Plant, and Dry Bones. In each of those other than Bowser, the offending party is for the SMW style, and in all of these, the differences extend to the big versions. And note how other than the big versions of those enemies, none of the "big" enemies have any unique characteristics from their counterparts in any one style, and aside from the NSMBU-based ones have any behavioral differences with their smaller counterpart. Also, this would mean enlarging them in the SMB style underwater would turn it into a spawner of smaller enemies, which is an even more drastic change. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:11, February 18, 2020 (EST)

Well, in most games in the mario series it is not refered to as Big Cheep Cheep, it is known as Boss Bass. Just putting my two cents in. [-]€40 vv@(talk · edits) 08:28, May 16, 2020 (EDT)

Another update: Template:Media link for Super Mario World depict what is clearly Boss Bass looking simply like a large version of Template:Media link (note the non-slanty eyes), while Template:Media link for Super Mario World 2 show a large-sized Flopsy Fish with a smaller open mouth, though for all we know that might be an unused boss-type thing. Lunge Fish existed as a weird worm-looking thing in prototype revisions, so this may be an early example of the developmental behavior starting to simplify as more enemies were made. The former sprites in particular are near identical to Yoshi's Story "Blurps." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:39, July 26, 2020 (EDT)

One thing I want to add is that Porcu-Puffer had different, rounded eyes in the early Super Mario World assets, strongly resembling what would have been the game's version of Boss Bass. This likely means that when Boss Bass was axed, the redesigned eyes were nixed entirely and the Super Mario Bros. 3 eyes of Boss Bass were given to the final version of Porcu-Puffer to retain the connection in some way. Another thing that may be pertinent to this discussion, also related to recent developments: apparently in the Super Mario 64 source files, Bub is "puku" and Bubba is "buku" - in other words, from the Japanese names Pukupuku (Cheep Cheep) and Buku Buku (Blurp). This means that Cheep Chomp was intended to be derived from the Super Mario World Blurp after all, explaining why it originally had shades. Additionally, apparently in the Yoshi's Story source files, Cheep Cheep is "minipuku" (compare miniteresa) and the Yoshi's Story Blurp is "pukupuku". This explains why the game just refers to the latter as 「プクプク」 (Pukupuku, Cheep Cheep), which the translators misread as 「ブクブク」 (Buku Buku, Blurp). It's not clear which actor references Spiny Fish, but it might be "buku", which would explain why the game's version of Spiny Cheep Cheep looks so different; there doesn't seem to be a reference to Togepuku at any rate. There's also something called "teppou_gun", which I presume is the water shot from Blue Blurp. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:00, August 4, 2020 (EDT)

Interesting. Regarding the Story file names, it sort of makes me think of how Galaxy gives Prickly Piranha Plant the "normal" file name while the normal one has a "small" file name, though in this Cheep/Blurp case post-release sources seem more vague about the distinction. Related, are the files for the other "Huge Island" (and for that matter, Tiny Island) enemies more along the lines of "Big/Small [x]?" Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:24, August 5, 2020 (EDT)

Like Super Mario 64 DS, it doesn't seem like it and rather the in-game engine resizes them, though keep in mind that some are saying that the source isn't complete. There are plenty of early names that weren't left over in Super Mario 64 DS either, but on the topic of large enemies, the one that stuck out to me is that the game's Monty Mole is internally referred to as "indy" of all things. Given the Argonaut Yoshi was found in an INDY folder, my first thought is that it must be some kind of in-joke, but the reason for that is because of the SGI Indigo line of computers (nicknamed "Indy" since they supposedly wouldn't "go" as in they were known to be slow) that Star Fox/Super FX models were made in. So unless Monty Mole was originally supposed to be larger, I don't really get the significance of Indy. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:59, August 5, 2020 (EDT)

I had figured that it was simply in-engine parameter differences, though the slight behavioral differences had me curious. That Indy bit amuses me, since it's similar to Morty Mole's situation. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:40, August 5, 2020 (EDT)

One more thing about the Monty Mole: it, like many other enemy models, is set at hmsScale(0.25f), which if I'm understanding it right means that the model is compiled to output a quarter of its original size. So it could very well be the case that the model was intended for an actual Indy, but they decided to consider it a Monty Mole when it was shrunken to around Mario's size (ironically CHOROPU became slightly larger than Mario in Super Mario 64 DS). If that's true, that means that the developers really did consider Mega Mole to just be a big Monty Mole, though I'm not sure where exactly Morty Mole fits into this. That aside, with a broader history of the Super Mario 64 and Yoshi's Story filenames, I have no more reservations about moving the Boss Bass information to Big Cheep Cheep. The only suggestion I'd add is keeping Boss Bass as a disambiguation page, much like the Bubba disambiguation page, because the name also refers to two subjects. Only question I have is: should we consider Cheep Chomp a derivative of Blurp in light of buku, Big Cheep Cheep because of Super Mario Pia, or both? LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:14, August 5, 2020 (EDT)

(Coulda had sunglasses at one point and removed 'em when they decided to use it for the "normal" type...) Honestly, probably both. Additionally, given the findings on Porcupuffer's prototype eyes, it should probably be considered a Big Cheep Cheep variant too. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:18, August 5, 2020 (EDT)

(Its eye texture is labeled as indy_eye_txt though...) I was thinking the same thing about Porcupuffer, possibly promoting Spiny Cheep Cheep from comparable to relative or second parent as well. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:36, August 5, 2020 (EDT)

(Unique design relative to other Monty Moles anyways (and as such may have had a different model still at some point) and could have changed the texture image or had it 2D on the front, but regardless, neither here nor there) And on that note, any interesting file name for Spike Bass, or is it just Igapuku there too? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:46, August 5, 2020 (EDT)

(Some of the asset filenames like "big-killer" make me wonder if the developers just wanted to be a bit more creative for the big enemy names in Super Mario World though.) Actually, interestingly, it's togepuku. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:36, August 6, 2020 (EDT)

(Fair, but we did get a "Big Bullet Bill" in M&S since then.) Guess we should consider that a variant of Spiny Cheep Cheep, then? It does look kinda like an edgy version of the Yoshi's Story design... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:39, August 6, 2020 (EDT)

(True, but I figured that was an anomaly like Mega Hammer Bro in Mario Kart Tour, which would otherwise be Sledge Bro.) Sounds good. I think all of these relation changes can be made independent of moving Super Mario Bros. 3 Boss Bass and Yoshi's Story Blurp info to Big Cheep Cheep, though I'll leave Spiny Cheep Cheep's exact relation to Porcupuffer to your discretion. Honestly, I think there is enough evidence to just do it if there wasn't a history of previous proposals. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:26, August 6, 2020 (EDT)

I'm honestly also kinda on the fence about Porker and Toge's relation. While it could have simply been designed as the Boss Bass version of Spiny Cheep Cheep (which it essentially is), the lack of that key bit of conclusive proof, the JP name being different enough it could be either "creative freedom" on naming and design or simply incidental, and the fact that NSMBW keeps their designs separate indicates "related" may be the thing to do. Granted, said game also makes Spiny Cheep as aggressive as Porcupuffer. SMM2 has Porcupuffer able to be enlarged and no Spiny Cheep, but obviously, it can be a variant/derived without necessarily being simply "a big version." I'm probably going to flip-flop on this a lot in the future, but for now, probably "relatives" is the thing to do (unless further down the line proto SMW Spiny Cheep sprites are found). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:41, August 6, 2020 (EDT)

Anyways, I created a little timeline of the design changes. It's really quite smooth in how it changes! Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:36, August 8, 2020 (EDT)

Looks good. By the way, is the Super Mario World one the proper palette or custom colors? LinkTheLefty (talk) 03:30, August 9, 2020 (EDT)

It's the game's red palette, which I applied myself but is still valid as far as the tile assets are concerned. Normal Cheep Cheeps use the game's yellow palette, even the early ones (which are the SMB3 ones with forward eyes and added shading), due to using the shared "dark orange" shade up top. Since Boss Bass doesn't have dark orange mapped there, the yellow palette doesn't work for it. Since AFAIK no coded version of them has been found, any palette is technically a guess. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:08, August 9, 2020 (EDT)

Probably intended to be a redesign of the Boss Bass, in SMW. -- FanOfYoshi 13:08, August 9, 2020 (EDT)

No "probably" about it, Template:Media link has sprites for an open-mouthed one as well. The SMW2 one could be either an eaty one or not, as the seeming lack of animatable frames indicates it's probably unfinished. Regardless, the thicker outlines on the lips and fins indicate it was likely going to be rotated like the thick-lined open-mouthed ones in the final. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:21, August 9, 2020 (EDT)

Merge Boss Bass and Blurp (Yoshi's Story) here

Template:SettledTPP Template:ProposalOutcome Honestly, I never thought I'd get this amount of definitive evidence for this, but the recent leaks have provided. Take a gander.

Now, I'm going to go through each iteration shown here:

• In SMB3, Boss Bass/Big Bertha was the giant counterpart to Cheep Cheep, with its JP name making it comparable to Grand Goomba, the Giant Koopas, and Piranhacus Giganticus, all of which are now merged to their respective "Big [x]" article. While fans commonly think of them as highly aggressive, this is only true for the ones leaping along the surface, used as a large counterpart to the red Cheeps, while the underwater ones are passive and act as a large version of the green ones. Both have "angry" eyes, small fins, and a large, anglerfish-like mouth, granting each a secondary ability: the surface ones try to eat Mario, and the underwater ones release babies. In the original game, they lack a white underside, but it is added in the graphic-enhanced reissues, albeit a bit yellow.
• In SMW leaks, sprites for Boss Bass have been found, looking more like simply large Cheeps, but still recognizably Boss Bass. They now have normal eyes and a somewhat smaller closed mouth, but the open mouth remains quite large. Their eyes are now normal, which was actually shared with Porcupuffer in those early revisions. When Boss Bass was cut, Porcupuffer instead started using Boss Bass's original eyes. Of note is that normal Cheep's palette (even in early "SMB3 Cheep sprite edit" stages) does not work on Boss Bass due to the latter not using the shared orange to shade the body.
• In SMW2 leaks, a few sprites for a large Flopsy Fish have been found. There are only three, so they were possibly incomplete, though the thicker outline around the lips and fins of the side-facing one makes me think it was intended to be rotated like many other entities in the game (including arc-jumping Flopsy Fish). They also would likely be scaled to a larger size, as is the case with things like Incoming Chomp. The mouth is open on all of them, but it is a relatively small mouth. Therefore, we don't really know if it was intended to be carnivorous or not. Lunge Fish existed by then as a strange glasses-wearing thing, so they may have found that unnecessary before deciding the same thing for the enemy as a whole.
• In YS, big "Blurps" literally use the same base model as the small Cheep Cheeps (which by association are implicitly misnamed "Blurps" themselves), and act like the surface SMB3 Boss Bass but with graphical alterations like rotation available. They also chase while underwater. The blue ones combine this with a Spray Fish-like behavior. In the source code, these large ones are identified as "Pukupuku" (Cheep Cheep) while the "normal"-sized ones are "MiniPuku," in a situation similar to SMG's file names having Prickly Piranha Plant as "PackunFlower" and normal Piranha Plant as "MiniPackun." Of additional note is the design looks almost exactly the same as the two leaked ones above, creating a coherent bridge to Boss Bass slowly being redesigned to look like a simple large Cheep Cheep.
• In NSMB, Mega Cheep-Cheeps act the same as underwater Cheep-Cheeps, but are huge. On the surface, they are instead replaced with Spike Bass. The eating behavior is now given to Cheep Chomp.
• In NSMBW, Mega Cheep-Cheeps are only slightly larger than normal Cheep Cheeps. Porcupuffer is now the surface one, and unlike the others, its design inexplicably is not modernized to include wings, streamline colors, et cetera, still looking more like the strange SMW Cheep Cheep. Cheep Chomp also appears, even larger.

So, what prompted this shift? The answer is simple: Cheep Chomp. As "Bubba" in SM64, the source code leaks show it was actually based on Blurp from SMW and not Boss Bass as it had been generally assumed. The remake made it more like the original Boss Bass in design, but the leaks show it literally cannot be it; by the time of SM64DS, Boss Bass had gone through the first four design iterations above and has looked conceptually like simply a large Cheep Cheep now. In order for Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp to be the same, Boss Bass would have had to:

• Start out as a large-mouthed angry thing
• Slowly become more Cheep Cheep
• Be conceptualized as a different enemy and wear sunglasses
• Snap back to looking like a large Cheep Cheep
• Snap back to looking like a large-mouthed angry thing while a totally-different enemy takes the role of "Big Cheep Cheep," looking like its previous most recent appearance.

Personally, I find this theoretical series of events a tad absurd. What all evidence points to in my perspective is

• Big Cheep Cheep starts out as a large-mouthed angry thing
• It slowly became more like a typical Cheep Cheep
• A separate enemy with a similar role to the aggressive type is developed for one game
• The separate enemy is redesigned to look like Big Cheep's dropped design as a nod
• Said separate enemy takes on a similar role to the aggressive version of the original Big Cheep so they could have both a "large counterpart to Cheep Cheep" and an eaty fish at once.
• The separate enemy is made more distinct from the original Big Cheep to avoid confusion.

All of this is corroborated by the Japanese names. Kyodai/(okina)/Dai/Deka Puku Puku for Boss Bass through Big Cheep Cheep and Bakubaku (a play on Bukubuku, Blurp's name) for Cheep Chomp.

And of course, there are other things to consider as well:

• Normal Cheep Cheeps try to eat players in the first three Mario Party games, sometimes leaping from the water.
• Later Mario Party games have size variation for Cheep Cheeps, usually worth a separate amount of points.
• In Mario Party DS, Cheep Cheeps of varying sizes will all eat the player.
• Giant Cheeps have appeared in backgrounds of Mario Kart games, looking like a giant normal Cheep in MK64 and a YS "big Blurp" in MKSC. In MKDS, the one from MK64 is replaced with what internal data indicates is Cheep Chomp during its "redesigned to look like Boss Bass" phase, though it should also be noted the same course's generic bats were replaced with Swoops.
• PMSS shows Big Cheeps are still highly capable of being aggressive and dangerous on the surface, just in new ways.
• In the NES Remix games, the file name for Boss Bass's stamp is literally "BigPukupuku," though one could consider this an artifact, as Sledge Bro's is "FatBros" instead of the more current "MegaBros."
• In SMM2, Porcupuffer acts similar to Boss Bass in above-water themes and Cheep Chomp underwater, but with different "hit by fire" behavior never used before.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: August 25, 2020 11:59 PM (GMT))

Merge all three articles

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per proposal and design evolution timeline
2. TheDarkStar (talk) - after looking at a helpful comparison image, i've been convinced that these are all the same thing.
3. Waluigi Time (talk) I don't really like it, but I also can't argue with it. Most likely the unique name and behavior was just an attempt by the devs to add some "flashiness" to the mega enemies. This is also demonstrated to a lesser extent by the Sledge Bros' quake attacks (and note that we've never seen any sort of "Mega Hammer Bro" otherwise, so Sledge Bro are obviously their big counterparts). As far as naming goes, unlike the modern Mario games where the names of mega enemy variants are for the most part standardized, at the time of SMB3 none of the mega enemies had matching name schemes (Grand Goomba/Giant Koopa Troopa/Colossal Koopa Paratroopa/Piranhacus Giganticus/Sledge Bro/Boss Bass). At this point it seems most likely that Boss Bass is just the standard larger Cheep Cheep variant with a more complicated design history than other similar enemies.
4. LinkTheLefty (talk) Before the leaks, I still had some doubts about what the developers were thinking, particularly given Cheep Chomp's design history that seemingly intertwined it with Boss Bass. After the leaks, one can only conclude, from a development standpoint, that the Yoshi's Story "Blurp" is a Big Cheep Cheep, Porcu-Puffer was influenced by Boss Bass, and Cheep Chomp was conceptually derived from Blurp. Now that the pieces of the puzzle fit much more cleanly, this option gets my full support.
5. DarkNight (talk) Per TheDarkStar.
6. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per my observation in the comments (which, yes, was added before Doc amended the proposal as such). Apparently behaviors are relative, and it's quite difficult to tie one enemy to one specific behavior. And the data leaks only add to the clarity surrounding this case.

Do nothing

1. SmokedChili (talk) I'm not convinced. Sure, Cheep Chomp's SM64 filename is "Buku", but how do you know it isn't a corruption of "Baku" like Tetu Kantera, or that it didn't actually start off as a Bukubuku before they scrapped or heavily modified it into a Boss Bass analogue, like Green Coin into Toad balloon or the SM64 game engine into Zelda OoT game engine? While there may be basis in files, the lines are ultimately drawn with finished products. That's why green Cheep Cheeps in YNI and Super Mario Maker games are not recognized as Deep Cheeps, or black Guided Bullet Bills distinctly from normal Bullet Bills in Japanese publications. Kyodai and deka meaning the same thing doesn't actually hold water with Kyodai Kinoko and Deka Kinoko, the two power-ups that both behave differently and grant different forms, so for that reason there's basis for Kyodai Pukupuku and Dai/Deka Pukupuku being different enemies under the current naming patterns.

Comments

I'm still on the fence with this, but one thing I think is also worth pointing out is that in Super Mario Maker 2, Porcupuffers gain the eating ability and, in the forest theme, essentially replicate Boss Basses. They also keep their eating behavior underwater. What do you think this tries to imply? ^(T|C) 19:25, August 11, 2020 (EDT)

To me, this indicates more than anything that behavior is relative, wholly up to the developers' disgression. They replicate that behavior in other themes too, just on the bottom of the screen. The primary difference from Boss Bass is how they react to fire, which also has never been used before. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:35, August 11, 2020 (EDT)

Okay, yeah, I had a feeling that that would be your response. ^(T|C) 23:21, August 11, 2020 (EDT)

Given evidence that Porcupuffer's design was influenced by the Super Mario Bros. 3 Boss Bass, it could also be taken as a callback to those origins. Note that Porcupuffer acted as a modern Big Cheep Cheep in the original Super Mario 3D World, which would have been boring to include as-is. In other words, Porcupuffer and Cheep Chomp would both be considered derivative of Big Cheep Cheep, which initiated the eating behavior as Super Mario Bros. 3 Boss Bass/Yoshi's Story Blurp previously. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:31, August 11, 2020 (EDT)

@Chili How about the design evolution? The SMW scrapped enemy has too much overlap between designs to be cleanly placed in just one category. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:34, August 12, 2020 (EDT)

Also @Chili: First off, tetu isn't exactly a "corruption", but rather an alternate way to romanize tetsu. Second, Cheep Chomp's Japanese name, Bakubaku, was still based on Blurp's, Bukubuku, which the data finally explains. Third, those Kyodai and Deka examples have merge suggestions on the top of their current articles, which you can follow at the talk pages (and certain other examples aren't the best to point to since they can easily be revisited). Fourth, you haven't addressed minipuku/pukupuku or Yoshi's Story Blurp at all. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:28, August 12, 2020 (EDT)

Another note to self for later: this image shows what at first appears to simply be a Cheep Cheep, but looking closely at its size and mouth shape indicates it is actually an early Cheep Chomp without sunglasses. That being said, it's still not definite what's being shown given the period of development. If this is indeed what became Cheep Chomp, this shows it at a period where it still was (visually at least) a Blurp. It seems likely they replaced it with lazily-scaled down and otherwise edited versions of the original model with a more timid behavior since they're a bit too aggressive for that location while making Blurps look more dangerous with sunglasses, eventually making it a different enemy. But again, no definite proof there. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:17, August 25, 2020 (EDT)

Welp I missed the proposal deadline

This talk page or section has a conflict or question that needs to be answered. Please try to help and resolve the issue by leaving a comment.

But now that I've got some time again, the show must go on so here's something I threw in why Boss Bass being Big Cheep Cheep is a baffling thought.

First, the fact that for Boss Bass to become Big Cheep Cheep, it had to discard all of its unique traits to become a giant vanilla enemy while Cheep Chomp inherited those traits. But while behavior may be relatable in that standard issue enemies or their relatives can adapt quirks from specialized variants (like normal and big Cheep Cheeps chomping away), what other cases like Boss Bass = Big Cheep Cheep are there? Sledge Bro retains its behavior and only had changes in its Japanese name and a minor detail removal, and Bull's-Eye Bill is Bullet Bill specifically meant to seek out Mario even though normal Bills do the same thing. The enemies that come close are Para-Goomba no longer spawning babies since SMB3 but retaining hopping and jumping, and Rocky Wrench becoming a mole from a mole-looking turtle but still being a wrench-throwing mechanic. This means that while most specified variants remain as themselves in spite of loaning themselves here and there, Boss Bass would be an anomaly by losing its identity and giving it to something else instead of remaining as itself but getting a name different from the norm.

Second is comparing the big Cheeps to the other big enemies from SMB3 and SMW. Out of the ones that still appear, Big Goomba splits depending on the game, Big Koopa's physiology follows normal Koopa's, and the others (Banzai Bill, Big Piranha, Big Boo, Sledge Bro again) remain the same aside from some tweaks like the Jp name. Boss Bass = Big Cheep Cheep only has kyodai/deka as the common feature with mostly everyone else and being the only one who devolves into the base enemy. Boss Bass as Cheep Chomp is simply more consistent with the others.

Third is the looks of several enemies in SM64. Some like Swoop and Thwomp look entirely different from their previous iterations, others like Cheep Cheep and Bullet Bill instead look like their derivatives. Then SM64DS changed them to how they (should have) appeared. Now, in a situation where Boss Bass isn't Cheep Chomp, this makes the latter the only new enemy with the same behavior as the former and then coincidentally receiving its appearance later, when every other enemy mentioned simply looks weird and then gets corrected. But just as Boss Bass doesn't look exactly like Cheep Cheep, neither doesn't SM64 Cheep Chomp look like SM64 Cheep Cheep. Not to mention that for a transitional stage that the unused SMW and YI sprites and the possible pre-release model were going to be, they were still sidestepped in favor of the big man-eating deviant fish a la SMB3.

tl;dr: For Boss Bass = Big Cheep Cheep to work, a specialized enemy variant needs to be turned into the big vanilla enemy and a new character turned into a carbon-copy of its former self while a) the other specialized variants don't undergo this, b) the big enemies debuting around the same time also don't undergo this, and c) a number of enemies don't look like themselves in SM64 until they do in 64DS but Boss Bass = Cheep Chomp don't apply because of a code name ”buku” when there's also ”puku” and Pukus look like Bukus. Boss Bass = Cheep Chomp only needs to acknowledge Jp name irregularity and it would be much more consistent with everything else while big vanilla Cheep is made later and the chomping is loaned to its brethren. SmokedChili (talk) 14:47, August 26, 2020 (EDT)

Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp don't act the same, though. In SMB3, the more common version was Big Bertha, which was neither aggressive nor carnivorous. It acted like the back-and-forth green Cheeps with a little range-boosting partner. So they were less "specialized enemy variant" and more "large version with some extra spice," like Sledge Bro. or the current Big Goombas. Since then, the general behavior of sidescroller Cheep Cheeps has changed as well, thus essentially requiring a change in the large version to stay consistent with how it relates to the normal Cheeps. Cheeps now swim in a large variety of patterns, so Big Bertha's action wouldn't translate very well. Another thing, normal Cheeps acted as Boss Bass in early Mario Party games, indicating that always was simply a size thing and not a "specialization" thing. Additionally, other so-called "specialized variants" have gone through major behavioral changes; Spiny Cheep Cheep was originally simply a Cheep Cheep that swam fast from one end of the screen to the other, then became a slow puffer fish, then a back-and-forth swimmer, then a fast chaser. The designs for it are also all over the place. As for your point on SM64 Bullet Bill, BB's design wasn't standardized until around 64DS; previous games were basically multiple-choice on whether it had arms and/or a mouth. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:46, August 26, 2020 (EDT)

"Specialized in voracious nature", "spiced with voracious nature", what's the difference? Cheep Cheeps had numerous various styles of swimming and jumping in SMB3 already while the giants were locked to two styles, just like how Cheep Chomp behaves one way compared to red Cheep Cheeps swimming in multiple patterns. Behavior requiring changes is also applicable to Boss Bass being Cheep Chomp by merging the underwater swimming with chomping Mario and getting rid of baby spawning. Cheeps in Mario Party don't really debunk anything what I said about quirks loaned to or shared with others like how Bullet Bills may chase Mario when Bull's-Eyes aren't around so of course Cheeps borrow from Chomps. And while Spiny Cheep Cheep did change designs, it also went back to what it started as and didn't have another enemy taking its design co-exist with it. Big Cheep Cheep as Boss Bass can't be backed up the same way, Cheep Chomp as Boss Bass meanwhile can do the same by getting new look for a while before modernized with a new palette and the behavior being a combination of two variants. SmokedChili (talk) 12:47, August 27, 2020 (EDT)

Spiny Cheep didn't go back to its original behavior, though. Additionally, look at the "big" variants between SMB3 and NSMB. Of them, only "big" variants for Cheep Cheep, Hammer Bro, and Piranha Plant are shared. Of these, only the Hammer Bro ones really act mostly the same, though even Sledge Bros' behavior was tweaked a little. Big Cheep Cheeps are now found solely underwater and are generally trailed by normal-sized Cheep Cheeps, which to me seems like a very basic adaptation of Big Bertha's behavior without needing to create a new model for opening the mouth. As for the Piranha Plants, they didn't have coexisting SMB3 and NSMB behaviors anyway until NSMBU (where Big Cheeps were relatively small anyways). Regardless of all that, though, the point remains that merging based on design and alleged behavioral similarities alone when said design and behavior are inconsistent anyways ultimately amounts to speculation. Merging based on having the same basic name and general role of "large counterpart," however, is based in official wording and is consistent with how we handle other "big" enemies. And before Kyodai Hana-chan or anything like that gets brought up, please note that "Kyodai" was used for "big" initially before being switched out for "Dai" in NSMB, with "Kyodai" instead being adapted for really big things, such as that and several "Mega" things (discounting NSMB's Mega Goomba, being "Boss Kuribo"). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:38, August 27, 2020 (EDT)

Another thing to consider is that TCRF image I posted in the comments of the previous proposal, depicting what is either a Bubba with Bub's final design in Dire Dire Docks or a Bub at the same size as Bubba, which either indicates that that Bubba was a Blurp after all or Bubba was not initially intended as bigger than Bub, depending on which conclusion is correct. Also sorry if my previous response came off as brash, I'd only woke up recently. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:18, August 27, 2020 (EDT)

Neither did Fishbone, Paragoomba with baby spawning and Boss Bass as whatever it's supposed to be. Big enemies themselves are either generic and directly based on the normals or non-generic with unique quirks which Big Piranha Plant and Sledge Bro respectfully fall into. Cheep Chomp is also more reminiscent of Big Bertha than Big Cheep is by swimming back and forth until a player gets close and then it acts like Boss Bass by starting a hungry chase. It's also really not speculation for a giant voracious fish currently known as Cheep Chomp along with other enemies to be given a different design in one game and then have its remake change them to how they were in previous games. As for the pre-release image, the issue is that since Bub looked like Blurp from the beginning and Bubba based on that then it's really not the case of Bubba being a Blurp, it's just big Bub / Cheep Cheep that was later distinguished with shades. SmokedChili (talk) 16:56, August 28, 2020 (EDT)

While just a theory, I have a feeling they made Bubba first and later added Bub as a way to keep the original design somewhere and keep Dire Dire Docks from being obscenely hard. Anyways, to facts, Cheep Chomp doesn't really "swim back and forth;" in its first appearance it patrols in a fairly regular complex manner (I've studied its behavior a lot between versions so bear with me) and in the side-scrollers it always moves forward until it notices the player. Regardless, the fact that the original concept was "large Cheep Cheep" with "eating" being a secondary characteristic found in a minority of them, while Cheep Chomp's role has never been anything other than "eating fish" (barring nonfunctional cameos), this still puts it more in Big Cheep's boat. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:19, August 28, 2020 (EDT)

It's the "puku" files found among the "buku" files that make me question that because that leans towards the textures for Bub being already made and then using them on Bubba before scrapping that. And of course Cheep Chomp in 64 has more complex movement patterns, as do most other enemies so that's nothing special, and Cheep Chomps do swim back and forth in New DS and Wii, I checked that myself. 2 and U changed it going straight for the bait. Boss Bass' eating is far from being secondary and more of one of primary traits that it got stuck with it in transition to Cheep Chomp since they are together large eating Cheep Cheeps (Berthas too eat their babies) like how Sledge Bros are large ground shaking Hammer Bros. SmokedChili (talk) 16:31, August 29, 2020 (EDT)

They don't "eat" their babies, they merely carry them in their mouths, which is something many fish species do. o.o Anyways, since an overwhelming majority of "Kyodai Pukupuku" are Big Bertha, then yes, it is very much a secondary trait. (Please note that not counting respawns, there are only two aggressive KPP in the game and around 15 or so nonaggressive ones at least.) It goes right to the names: the main thing for "Giant Puku Puku" is that it's a giant Puku Puku, while the main thing for Baku Baku is that it gobbles things up, onomatopoeia not translating here notwithstanding. Heck, even "Boss Bass" and "Big Bertha" seem more concerned with relative size. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:45, August 29, 2020 (EDT)

If they weren't eaten they would be swimming out of their dead parents' gaping mouths. Gruesome, I know. And if trait priority is determined by sheer numbers then Piledriver Micro-Goombas are the primary presentatives of Micro-Goombas with their block-hopping and greater numbers since there are fewer Paragoombas spawning Mugger Micro-Goombas, but since the Muggers get the manual coverage and keep returning I guess numbers aren't that great a method after all, or that the secondary trait wins. And the fact remains that Bubba/Chomp is as much as of big variant to Bub/Cheep as Boss Bass/Big Bertha is to Cheep, both look different from the base and like to chomp, and ultimately resemble each other by the time 64DS was released. So when Kyodai Pukupuku went through that awkward phase and got a new name Bakubaku, it was still a big Cheep Cheep with ”extra spice” as you call it, and since its new name stuck another Cheep Cheep was made to inherit the ”big” title, and so there's both a generic and non-generic big Cheep Cheep swimming about. SmokedChili (talk) 17:47, August 30, 2020 (EDT)

"If they weren't eaten they would be swimming out of their dead parents' gaping mouths." Bud bud there's this thing called "technical restrictions" and what they did manage for SMB3 was cutting edge at the time. 'Sides, when Lakitus go upside-down with their clouds Spiny Eggs don't start spilling out. As for the Pile Driver thing, those were already established as a subtype. A better comparison would be the brown and red Paragoomba, since red was more common in SMB3 and most later games give its behavior to the brown ones. Regardless, given the pre-release SM64 screenshot, Bubba was not intended to be larger at first. Therefore, at its inception, "eating" was its only trait. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:58, August 30, 2020 (EDT)

Eating not being a big Cheep trait isn't the point anyway, it's that Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp are both big Cheeps specializing in eating, whether its Mario or its children because filial cannibalism is also a thing with several species of fish (including mouth brooders), meaning that eating is still the primary trait for Boss Bass. Yet since the developers can choose whichever trait to use, that also makes priority (by numbers) meaningless as seen with flying Paragoombas existing. And now you can suddenly tell possible Bubba's size in that image? SmokedChili (talk) 15:03, September 1, 2020 (EDT)

While it may be forced perspective (given I'm bad at judging distance), LTL also thinks it's bigger than in the final, and I generally trust his perspective. Regardless, your argument seems to have shifted mostly to expanding the definition of "eating," even though the fact that they let them out every couple seconds means they are certainly not eaten. In regards to choosing traits, wouldn't the trait they name it after be the most important anyways? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:41, September 1, 2020 (EDT)

Let them out, or let them escape and eat them again? By your logic, Blooper Nanny should be instead Scattering Blooper (Chirashi Gesso) since that's what all of them do to their kids in NSMB series. There's also renaming which is what Boss Bass being Cheep Chomp would be, shifting the tone for a big Cheep that likes to eat. SmokedChili (talk) 15:16, September 2, 2020 (EDT)

mouth breeder=mouthbrooder. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:40, September 2, 2020 (EDT)

I'm talking about what determines whether something is the same, not what to name the article. o.o You seem to have some major misunderstanding about how my logic works, but it's really straightforward. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:30, September 2, 2020 (EDT)

Doesn't seem straightforward if you think I'm suddenly talking about naming the article. SmokedChili (talk) 16:02, September 3, 2020 (EDT)

Because that would be the only way that your bringing up of Blooper Nanny would be anything close to relevant. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:24, September 3, 2020 (EDT)

How? Bringing Blooper Nanny up by article naming would in fact be illogical because the name "Scattering Blooper" is an old name associated with SMB3 only. The point with Scattering Blooper is that it is actually considered its own type of Blooper that scatters away its kids, unlike the same looking (and less common) "Blooper with kids" aka Kozure Gesso that doesn't. SMB3 manual did this indirectly, ESMB reinforced it by giving them their own enemy slot. Come NSMB, Kozure Gesso became known as Blooper Nanny and scatters away its kids like Scattering Blooper. By you arguing that they would name an enemy after their most important trait, Kozure Gesso should have instead been identified as its relative Chirashi Gesso because of launching its kids away. But it was still Blooper with kids that was made the primary enemy over Scattering Blooper. Same thing with Boss Bass, who is in supplementary material made the prioritized type of Kyodai Pukupuku while Big Bertha is like, "There's also an underwater type". SmokedChili (talk) 16:10, September 4, 2020 (EDT)

How was it prioritized? Artworks tended to show a mix of traits from both (ie, both jumping and baby) while only Bertha had a comic counterpart. Also, where is "Chirashi Gesso" coming from? I've never heard of it. Last I remembered all SMB3 Bloober leaders do the scatter thing...regardless though, those enemies are still extremely similar in the games they appear in down to always using the same graphics, so no, it wouldn't be any more relevant than only "Handstand Packun" technically appearing in SMW, albeit not under the specialized name as it was only considered a relevant distinction for SML. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:13, September 4, 2020 (EDT)

Chirashi Gesso is found in Blooper Nanny's description, the same way the ceiling-walking Spiny (Sakasa Togezo) is mentioned in Buzzy Beetle's (Sakasa Metto) box, and Blooper Nannies in World 3 don't shoo away their kids. The difference from Handstand Packun is that upside down Piranhas who appear alongside the normal ones had already appeared earlier and the separate name was simply over a score difference while one type of Blooper took over the other that simultaneously debuted with it. And Big Bertha gets its second-hand treatment through written text like the Japanese ESMB blurb I just paraphrased. It was just a side mention like Missile Bill while Scattering Blooper got its own entry. So as common as Big Bertha is over Boss Bass, that still wasn't enough to consider the former the main type over the latter, thus making man-eating the more notable trait. SmokedChili (talk) 18:16, September 5, 2020 (EDT)

"Big" is still more "the" singular trait, though. To make this easier, looking at pre-Bakubaku games, the only one where "eating" was truly the "main" trait was Mario Teaches Typing, where the same role was given to a weird cyborg cyclops Blooper. Anyways, in regards to ESMB, I'm a little iffy on even using the Japanese version for splits, due to questionable sources in bibliographies of some of those books, as they appear to include unofficial guides as well. EDIT: Nevermind, that's actually from the SMB3 manual it seems. Anyways, perhaps that page could be reorganized after further investigation, but this one is simply more clear-cut than that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:03, September 5, 2020 (EDT)

So is Cat Bullet Bill's main trait being a cat? Or YS big Blurps' main traits being red and blue, per the guide? Mario Teaches Typing was from different developer with little involvement from Nintendo, but even if taken at face value it would be a logical step for the transition from Boss Bass to Cheep Chomp, making eating even more prominent. SmokedChili (talk) 17:58, September 6, 2020 (EDT)

Cat Bullet Bill's main differentiating feature is being a cat (sometimes they drop Super Bells like how Tail Bullet Bills drop Super Leaves), as are the big Blurps' color relative to each other (note how they share a blurb despite being given different names in the JP guide). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:09, September 6, 2020 (EDT)

That's basically the same thing. "Cat Bullet Bills' traits/features/differentiating features/differentiating traits compared to Bullet Bills are cat-like appearance, occasionally dropping Super Bells and homing capacities." "Big Blurps' traits/features/differentiating features/differentiating traits compared to small Blurps in Yoshi's Story are being big, stalking Yoshis and eating them for an instant miss and, depending on color, red ones jumping after them and blue ones squirting water if the Yoshi is on solid ground". SmokedChili (talk) 15:59, September 7, 2020 (EDT)

Yes, that is a list of all relevant traits for each, not necessarily just the singular defining ones, though. In regards to all relevant traits, normal-sized Cheep Cheep and Porcupuffer have also been given the "eating" trait before and are certainly not the same as Boss Bass. It's even also the theme of the totally unrelated Lunge Fish. So...your point? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:39, September 7, 2020 (EDT)

My point is, what's your point? If Cat Bullet Bill being a cat is its main differentiating feature, does that make homing its main trait? Because by that logic, Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp's main differentiating trait is being big, angry-eyed buck-toothed Cheep Cheeps and their main trait eating. SmokedChili (talk) 17:07, September 8, 2020 (EDT)

🤦🏻‍♀️ "Main trait" = "main differentiating feature" = "main defining characteristic" = "main distinguishing attribute." The difference from what you're saying is that by definition "the main trait" is a singular trait, not every single attribute at once. On another note, your argument there cannot be made without also merging Bub and N64 Mario Party Cheeps to Blurp, since they're all goggle-wearing fish with wide mouths and short, blunt fins, along with having the primary trait of swimming around with a gaping expression; basically, not like "typical" Cheep Cheeps at all. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:46, September 8, 2020 (EDT)

Yes it can, because SM64 is an anomaly to several enemy designs and swimming around with a gaping expression is typical Cheep Cheep behavior, not to mention that Blurps themselves borrowed that behavior and ended up omitted out. Both Cheep and Chomp then returned to form while the latter retained the Jp name makeover. Also who says main trait can only be singular, as in there being main traits? SmokedChili (talk) 14:16, September 13, 2020 (EDT)

Because the size for "main traits" can be made arbitrarily large, for example, putting amount of teeth as one when that doesn't affect anything. And even then, since a majority of K. Pukus in SMB3 didn't care about eating Mario, it was not a trait that differentiated them as a whole. Also, Cheeps don't normally have a "gaping" expression, they have an only slightly opened mouth usually. Also, while you say it was an anomaly for several enemy designs, no other ones made it look like a completely different pre-existing enemy. (Honestly, the only other "totally off" design I can think of off the top of my head is Thwomp, itself likely based on the SMK appearance to be frugal with polygons and textures. Typical Cheep Cheep could have been made with less textures than Bub.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:48, September 13, 2020 (EDT)

Yet it was the trait that was made in transition to Cheep Chomp the main behavior trait paired with its main appearance traits, namely the teeth and eyes, and of course never being smaller than normal Cheeps. The point about SM64 Bullet Bills still stands because when majority of prior artwork and sprites gave them hands and/or a grinning mouth, SM64 gave it Banzai Bill's design with wide open mouth and no hands so that's another enemy looking like another pre-existing one. And that difference between Cheeps and Blurps is pretty small when the latter have pretty similar mouths in artwork with the former and the difference itself comes from the sprites, so both really have slightly opened mouths or gaping expressions depending on one's opinion. SmokedChili (talk) 14:16, September 14, 2020 (EDT)

Bullet Bill is also likely a polygon number thing. Anyways, where do you think Blurp fits in all of this? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but that looks to me like you've been mostly dancing around that without making a definitive statement on where you think it belongs. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:08, September 14, 2020 (EDT)

Blurp is hardly relevant. The only known statements about Cheep Chomp group it with Cheep Cheep (like the Jp SSBB Cheep Cheep trophy), its appearances in lieu of vanilla big Cheep Cheep make it behave like a man-eating big Cheep Cheep, its appearance in SM64 complete with sunglasses makes it a man-eating big eye-accessory wearing Cheep Cheep, and it didn't have any known statements tying it to Blurp or shared game appearances with Blurp in functional role. SmokedChili (talk) 13:33, September 16, 2020 (EDT)

I guess my question was not clear (thanks, translators). I meant Yoshi's Story Blurp. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:05, September 16, 2020 (EDT)

Sure you did, don't blame your vagueness on translators. Anyhoo, YS big Blurps are in an awkward position because that's another game with weird enemy iterations. Clearly they're separate from Cheep Chomp with whom they coexisted in the same era, but if they really are the same as Big Cheep Cheeps, then they also went through a Japanese name change, just less drastic as Kyodai Pukupuku > Bakubaku. And if that means losing their eating trait, so what? That's not what I disagree with, what I do disagree with is Boss Bass losing both its major acting trait and its appearance just to turn into a vanilla big enemy while another allegedly distantly related enemy inherits both. SmokedChili (talk) 18:00, September 18, 2020 (EDT)

No reason to take that contemptuous accusatory tone, I was tired, busy, and honestly forgot I hadn't specified (and may have temporarily forgot the green one in general). Regardless, it is identified as a "(word for large) Pukupuku," with the guide giving some color variant names (since aside from Black Shy Guy and the Jellies, they're the only real "color variant" enemies with actual behavioral differences in the game). And again, it's not consistently "vanilla" now, either, since it had all sorts of unique moves in PMSS (unlike, for instance, the Big Buzzy Beetle from the same game, countering the "but RPG" argument). Regardless, the fact that YS Blurp looks exactly like multiple unused iterations of a large Cheep, one of which was certainly Boss Bass, along with the shared identification of being simply a giant Cheep Cheep and the strikingly similar behavior makes it fairly logical to say they are the same. And as you pointed out, Bubba couldn't really be the same as big Blurp, and given only big Blurp looks like how Boss Bass did at the time, it seems a more likely candidate. Now, since Baku is less likely to be K. Puku at its inception, that goes for all other appearances down the line. And hammering that home, big Blurp looks like and is described as simply a big Cheep Cheep. The only time Baku was directly identified as a large-sized Cheep that I can remember was the Pia guide. Again, it's about the gradual progression. It's not an abrupt role change. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:21, September 18, 2020 (EDT)

If unused generic Big Cheep Cheep sprites are supposed to represent Boss Bass, the same also applies to the supposed early model of Bubba. SmokedChili (talk) 17:15, September 19, 2020 (EDT)

(indent reset) Which the compilers call Buku, provided the picture isn't a Puku at a different size than in the final (note how Monty Mole is set at 1/4th of its default size in-game and is labeled as "Indy"). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:29, September 19, 2020 (EDT)

What does that matter when Bub and Bubba were made to look so close like each other? It makes ”Puku” and ”Buku” filenames weird because initially there'd be essentially a same enemy given two files, with the latter having the ”Puku” eyes hidden among its ”Buku” files. That actually lessens the impact of ”Buku” since what is essentially a copy of ”Puku” under the codename ”Buku” ends up developed from its files into a big chompy fish like Boss Bass. SmokedChili (talk) 14:15, September 24, 2020 (EDT)

They honestly hardly look any more different than Puku and Buku in SMW or SML2, but certainly much more different than the big and small Cheeps in Yoshi's Story (and the unused SMW one, which as can be seen by the mouth, stance, and resemblance to Porcupuffer is definitely Boss Bass). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:21, September 24, 2020 (EDT)

Isn't that just ”suspiciously similar substitution” you brought up in the Beezley proposal? The unused SMW big Cheep sprites themselves aren't seen in action so that leaves the appearance which alone isn't really enough to directly connect it to Boss Bass, same with big YS Blurps which bear closer resemblance to the unused sprites, and when that middleman is cut for direct Boss Bass / big Blurp comparation, despite their voracious trait they still go by different names and don't behave identically. The latter's desciption as ”ookina Pukupuku” isn't without its faults either since the big enemies' Jp names, especially in the mainline games, are written in all nouns (kyodai, deka), not with adjectives (kyodaina, dekai) which are used for flavor text like what Pia does with Bakubaku and Big Piranha Plant (kyodaina Deka Pakkun in P. Plant's description) and Jp Brawl with Petey Piranha. And as I said, the Jp Brawl trophy of Cheep Cheep mentions Cheep Chomp, as a ”rather big” type of subspecies where the English version only mentions ”enormous ones”. SmokedChili (talk) 18:03, September 26, 2020 (EDT)

That's ignoring the fact that no other WL4 enemies are returning (named or otherwise), while SMW used multiple returning species with new characteristics (Troopas, Dry Bones, Boos, Cheeps themselves, Bullet Bills) alongside similar substitutes ("Goombas," AFH Bro, Sumo Bro), and regardless, considering the similarity to the previous iteration of Porcupuffer sprites, it's reasonable to assume they'd act similar. YS also didn't really have any other "large counterpart" enemies, so just calling them "Pukupuku" is understandable. As for "Aka Puku" and "Aoi Puku," those aren't so much separate names as much as a color variable for the same enemy, as they are listed in the guide that referred them as such. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:51, September 26, 2020 (EDT)

Actually, Akapuku and Aopuku fall under Cheep Cheep variant naming in Japan which began with Spiny Cheep by replacing the first two kana; Togepuku, Nigepuku, Mekapuku etc. It thus isn't simply acknowledging color variables as with most others since not only is the color itself directly a part of their name, but it's also combined with a unique pattern Cheeps have, so they are definitely separate names. That makes them more of their own separate thing from other big Cheeps, especially Big Cheep Cheep itself who is thus a substitute enemy both as a similar-looking enemy and in how they look compared to normal Cheeps of their time. Also, the fact that in SMW Galoombas appeared in place of Goombas yet were mistaken for their cousins means the unused big Cheep would just as well be a planned new enemy instead of reimagined Boss Bass. SmokedChili (talk) 17:47, October 3, 2020 (EDT)

Except Goombas and Galoombas don't look even basically the same nor do their poses lend to them having identical behavior. And while behavior does change (that being one of the main pillars of this merge), it was clear even then that those "Goombas" were not the same as the others (and MPA and SMA4 proved it utterly). On a side note, what is Nigepuku? I can't find that one. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:30, October 3, 2020 (EDT)

That didn't prevent the translators from mistaking Galoomba for Goomba, especially in the same game where Koopa Troopa got its changes (and a "split" variety in Beach Koopa). Thus according to their mistake, Goombas were made different for SMW. SMA4 doesn't help with that since SMW Bowser Statues also appear which would make the case for "SMW iterations of enemies SMA4 with SMB3 ones". Even MPA is debatable with that stance in mind since a translator not knowing any better about the SMW situation would think of "Kuribon" as a quirky Goomba NPC name akin to Akiki. The unused big Cheep has even less going for it since how it would have behaved is ultimately major guesswork. Since the translators made such a mistake, how can it be said you wouldn't fall into a similar trap because of the looks of the sprites? (And Eep Cheep is Nigepuku.) SmokedChili (talk) 18:36, October 9, 2020 (EDT)

Because these actually do look the same relative to the respective normal Cheep Cheep (note the SMW Cheep looked a tad funky), with the addition of the striking similarities to the Porcupuffer (which does appear in the final, now looking even more like the original Boss Bass). The "giant open mouth" while looking simply like a big Cheep Cheep is what sells it; the only, for example, "squishing" sprites for Galoomba I know of were found unused in the SNES Test Program. As for why I'm still connecting this to Big Cheep Cheep and not Cheep Chomp, that's still the point about iterative design/purpose evolution and the original name. Also, I'm not entirely convinced Kurribon->Goomba was a "mistake;" I'm thinking it was a heavily misguided attempt to make them seem more familiar. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:50, October 9, 2020 (EDT)

It's one thing to make note of similarities and another using those similarities to draw connections. Those who made Kuribons ”Goombas” may have used the same logic as you by looking at their eyes and mouths and decided the two are a same thing based on just that. And going by that, if that big Cheep was supposed to resemble anything then it would actually be Rip van Fish since the two have similar sprites matching in how they move and look. Speaking of which, all small fishes have exactly two swimming sprites that alternate between mouth open and mouth closed just as the big Cheep does, which implies heavily it was never going to an eating type. That's a point against gradual evolution because you'd have Boss Bass turn into big Rip van Fish, then into voracious YS Blurp before becoming generic Big Cheep Cheep. The Porcupuffer comparison is a stretch because the only similarity is the eyes while its mouth is still smaller, and the fact that it was always meant to be closed which the artwork at the time reflected. At least with Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp the appearance is clearly similar as the character design starts settling down and becoming more standardized in DS/Wii generation and the voracious trait becomes more prominent, and again, you still need another enemy to take the original's appearance and a primary trait for transition to Big Cheep Cheep to work when no such case has been known to have happened before when the two appear together. Btw, you're wrong with the RPG argument because PMSS Big Buzzy has a back-shell spin that normal Buzzys don't while Big Spiny in Color Splash can charge up its attack. SmokedChili (talk) 18:39, October 16, 2020 (EDT)

Hm, there is a resemblance to Rip Van Fish (primarily when set to blue). However, I don't recall ever seeing normal Rip Van Fish in any of those early documents...potentially meaning that Rip Van Fish as an entity evolved from this fish. And in that case, flapping its mouth underwater while somehow not eating the player is basically what Big Bertha did, though this may have been intended to act similar to the later Bakubaku. Rip Van Fish is kinda OP in the final, so if it was even worse in the early builds, softening it by making it smaller and fall asleep (thus making a different enemy) makes some sense. I'm still skeptical of this not being at least envisioned as a Big Cheep at the time of creation, though, there's some normal Cheep sprites there that, since they exist elsewhere, were likely being used for reference for the larger version. Additionally, note how the one on the far left does look more like Cheeps than Rips, and due to the crude way its mouth is drawn it is almost certainly the initial revision. Now, I can't say I expected to see a missing link between Boss Bass and Rip Van Fish, but here we are (this also means my earlier belief that Rips were completely distinct from Cheeps has been disproven). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:30, October 18, 2020 (EDT) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:57, October 16, 2020 (EDT)

The possible Rip Van Fish connection is interesting, but note that the big Cheep Cheep is facing and looking upwards as if it is leaping out of the water, unlike regular Cheep Cheep. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:20, October 19, 2020 (EDT)

Hmmm... I missed the proposal... Not entirely sure how to proceed here. -- FanOfYoshi 14:51, October 18, 2020 (EDT)

So is Rip van Fish who is only found underwater. SmokedChili (talk) 17:16, October 24, 2020 (EDT)

The early iterations of Biggo there are clearly just looking forward, though, unlike Ripper. And I guess I was wrong about a lack of Rips then, but the earliest big guys still looks more like Kyodai and less like Riptup. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:42, October 24, 2020 (EDT)

There's really no telling which big fish sprites came first when Rip's top left set resembles the final design the most. Even the lone "blue" sprite could be the latest or intended iteration. SmokedChili (talk) 18:00, October 27, 2020 (EDT)

Well, all I can tell you on that is I myself am a spriter who has made sprites off Boss Bass going through many iterations, and as such I generally can tell how design iterations work from the roughness. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:17, October 27, 2020 (EDT)

But what good is that for when your sprites are merely your intepretation of Boss Bass design evolution vs. potentially multiple spriters/art directors behind each game who may scrap the early designs, no matter how fine-tuned, then use them as basis to make something else or start from the scratch? That's what I mean by there's no really telling, the big fish with big irises may as well be the first rough design but ”no, no eyes like that” and so they made the irises smaller. SmokedChili (talk) 17:46, November 3, 2020 (EST)

My point is that I have a decently large amount of direct experience with that process, which is a lot more than most other people here can say. I know it's not proof, but it's still relevant experience. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:36, November 3, 2020 (EST)

Also, consider that we are aware of developers constantly recycling old ideas and clearly referencing Nintendo's unused internal material, so yes, I wouldn't hesitate to say that such things still play a not-insignificant factor in the overall design process even now. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:28, November 4, 2020 (EST)

@doc Hardly. Any arts major can make ”I'm an expert” claims like that but if they use their own artwork and experience as the point for the evolution of someone else's artwork and experience, they'll be just citing themselves. SmokedChili (talk) 16:08, November 11, 2020 (EST)

I can tell what looks more blatantly crude, all right? Don't make inappropriate non-comparisons, I didn't claim to be an "expert." From what I can tell, all your arguments at this juncture stem from a big "but what if the opposite," and is not getting anywhere. This has gone on for three and a half months and has gone nowhere in that time. I'd suggest putting it on hold until you can find something more concrete, like I did when suggesting merging them initially. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:53, November 11, 2020 (EST)

But you did say you're an experienced spriter when I pointed out there's no telling what's the chronology of the sprite sets. That doesn't shield your view from criticism or second opinions which you want me to stop by telling me to shut it until I find something more concrete while pretending your claim has gone undisputed. When the sprites' order is virtually impossible to tell, your experienced take is as much of a guess as mine. SmokedChili (talk) 16:53, November 12, 2020 (EST)

Just look at the lips on it, though, when they're sloppily divided it's clearly less finished than the ones with the smoothly connected lips. And while it could theoretically possible that they made the ones on he right first and started a rather boxy redesign before giving up completely halfway through, it just seems less likely from both a practical, economical, and artistic perspective. Anyways, I'm trying not to be rude here, but you are indeed the only person who is actively contesting it, with most others either begrudgingly accepting or not caring. But I'm not trying to peer pressure you here. I'm saying this conversation is pointlessly going in circles and the one thing you've brought up that legitimately made me need to stop and think for a bit was the Rip van Fish resemblance. Much as I did with Lava Piranha, therefore, stopping and waiting for something new to come up is most likely the best course of action for you, because as it stands, this is just needlessly taking time from both of us. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:04, November 12, 2020 (EST)

Those lips looking unfinished to you doesn't equal the ”blue” sprite being an earlier design. YS big Blurps have similar sloppy lips and Cheep Chomp has a bigger upper lip which is especially prominent in Sticker Star, so the weird lips sprite is actually the basis for the later designs. As for your Lava Piranha case, you'd also have to tackle how Wiggler and Flutter are currently handled. SmokedChili (talk) 17:25, November 14, 2020 (EST)

Drawing does not equal modeling. YS things were all made from very simple 3D forms placed in near proximity; note that Gabon, Don Bongo, Spiked Fun Guy, and Puffer all used the same feet, just recolored, while Pak E. Derm, Gabon, Don Bongo, and several other things had the same body with different textures and things sticking out from them. The renders were rather crude, but it's what they had to work with for smooth modeling at the time. Additionally, the prominent upper lip in later designs has nothing to do with the outright janky angles this sprite's lips are drawn in. As for Wiggler and Flutter, no, those actually have precedent of appearing together within the same game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:46, November 15, 2020 (EST)