Talk:Big Boo

Big Boo

Big Boo and King Boo were never the same person D; --
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luigifan14 (talk).

Sleepy Boo

Would the Sleepy Boos be counted as a sub-species of Big Boos? They are Boos and I'm pretty sure there very large in size, bigger than Mario. -- Sir Grodus

Merge

Vote here.

Change the name of the article?

Alright, before everyone goes crazy, hear me out...

In Japan, the enemy known as The Big Boo in Super Mario World was known as an Atomic Teresa. Simple enough. Teresa itself was changed to Boo Diddly in SMB3, which became Boo Buddies in SMW before settling with just Boo in later games. Good enough.

Super Mario RPG comes along, and the Teresa enemy wasn't renamed Boo, but rather The Big Boo. Chalk this up as carelessness on NoA's part, but these are most certainly not The Big Boos of SMW - rather, the only The Big Boo in the game was featured in Bowser's Terrorize attack.

Super Mario 64 brings back Big Boo - but wait? It dropped the capitol "The". That's okay, it was kind of cumbersome anyway. At any rate, Big Boo's Haunt (or Teresa's Horror House in Japan) was one of the game's Courses, and it stuck out of the one with the titular Boos. Except, in Japan, there weren't Atomic Teresas - it was Master Teresa that you had to find, which seemed to be a type of Atomic Teresa. So the title of "Big Boo" was skewed yet again to a new character. [On a side note, its remake, Super Mario 64 DS, also gave the name "Big Boo" to King Teresa, which was renamed King Boo in every other game he's been in, bar for Super Mario Sunshine which named Boss Teresa the King Boo instead of Boss Boo. Confused?).

Big Boos (or at least, our perception of them) took a back seat in recent years outside of Super Pricess Peach and the latter Paper Mario games. Super Princess Peach mistranslated some of the enemy names, but it brought back "Big Boo." Paper Mario games, however, went beyond and gave a retranslated name to the Big Boo - Atomic Boo. A name that makes sense and was kept in the series.

So here's a proposal. We should just rename the article entirely. The designation "Big Boo" was warped over the years that perhaps it's best to have Big Boo refer to many things, and Atomic Boo refer to the originally intended enemy. LinkTheLefty 16:30, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Atomic Boo has been merged with Big Boo and the Sunshine King Boo got a separate article. But you say the Big Boo of Super Mario 64 is also a different character? --Grandy02 09:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Seeing as the Big/Atomic/King/Boss Boo pages have been changed around so much since 2008 (and since last year, for that matter), I'm just gonna suggest that if anyone still has a problem with organization, make a TPP about it, or at least make a new argument: I'm afraid this particular question is too outdated to be properly addressed now. - Walkazo 11:51, 14 June 2011 (EDT)

Merged from Talk:Atomic Boo

Does this need the boss template?
- Yoshi Master

Tough to say. While it is a mini-boss, it's also optional. I'd still say so, though. Wayoshi _T^C_@ 17:52, 17 October 2006 (EDT)

Atomic Boo should probably be in the secret bosses category. Or under the mini-boss category with a note saying: (optional). -- Son of Suns

Dark Atomic Boo

• 
• 

Well, which image do you think would be better for the article (or do either of these even belong in the article)? --KPH2293 15:26, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

I think they "Dark Atomic Boo" information could go to Beta elements, though it could be mentioned in a trivia section or something in the Atomic Boo article. -- Sir Grodus

Booluses

Do you think Boolusses might be a type of Atomic Boo? -Pal101

Mention of Relation to Bigger Boo

I honestly think the mention of Atomic Boo being possibly related to the Bigger Boo should be removed from the Trivia section. Aside from both being large Boos, they share little in common. In fact, the trivia section could be interpreted as making it sound like the Bigger Boo is an amalgalm of Boos, which is just plain not true. Is it all right if I remove it? Dinosaur bob 18:46, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Given that there's been no objection for almost two weeks, I'm removing the offending information. Dinosaur bob 12:08, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Merge to Big Boo

This is corroborated by TMK ([1], [2]), New Super Mario Daijiten ([3]), Wikipedia ([4]), etc. Since they're clearly intended to be the same thing, I propose that this article be merged to Big Boo

Proposer:Twentytwofiftyseven (talk)
Voting Start:11:21, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Deadline:23:59, 17 April 2010

Support

1. Twentytwofiftyseven (talk)
2. KS3 (talk) another one of those mistranslations (Why would they call a Cheep-Cheep Goby???)
3. Edofenrir (talk) - Per the original intention of those Japanese Nintendo guys.
4. Turkishcoffee (talk) - The European release (of SM64) uses "Big Boo" left in English like it's a proper name or something, not a translated or localized name (preventing a proper sample pool consensus between translation / localization teams), so I'll side with the probable intent of the Japanese creation team.
5. Walkazo (talk) - Per all.
6. Grandy02 (talk) - Per all. Big Boos have always been "Atomic" in Japanese.
7. Coincollector (talk) Very simmilar to Princess Peach/Toadstool, westerns make silly things very often.

Oppose

Comments

Split the Paper Mario boos into a separate article

Template:SettledTPP Template:ProposalOutcome I'm going to disagree with the idea that the Atomic Boos from the Paper Mario series is the same thing as the Big Boos. To start off, the Atomic Boo isn't a species, it's a separate entity. Only one of it appears at any given point in each game (I'd consider Mansion Patrol to be a very weak opposition to this due to how estranged it is from the main game and this only applies to SPM), which is unlike the Big Boos that have a habit of appearing alongside each other. There's also the fact that the Atomic Boo is clearly formed by a bunch of Boos combining with each other in two installments (TTYD and SS) and is implied to be this way in SPM, which is something that also distinguishes themselves from Big Boos and makes it closer to, say, Boolossus, another conglomeration of Boos who also has a separate article. That distinction in physiology alone is a huge reason why they shouldn't be in the same article. Yes, in TTYD they share the same name in Japan, and in SS they even share the same name in English, but the same name alone is not a good reason to merge two subjects, and this retreads the same reasons I laid out on the Gritty Goomba talk page and probably other places.

The difference in behaviour is also noticeable: the Big Boos from the platformers simply chase after Mario like their smaller counterparts, but in TTYD, the Atomic Boo can spit out its smaller boos and use a powerful glare, while the SS Big Boo not only has a visual difference, it can eat Mario and disappears in light. This can't be disregarded as simply a result of the difference between RPG's and platformers; there's a noticeable contrast between them and Big Boos. The one from SPM is harder to justify through behaviour, but it shares the same name as its TTYD predecessor, and, and mentioned, also shares the whole "combo of Boos" detail, so it deserves to reap the benefits of this proposal. Now, I don't think there's much of a reason to not split them, but to me, the biggest question is on how to split them. One possible interpretation is that the Atomic Boos are completely-separate entities and should be classified as different characters, in which case the Boos from TTYD, SPM, and SS would all get different articles, and another is that the Atomic Boo is a "form" that the Boos can take, kind of like Fire Mario, in which case the PM line of Boos would be split off into a single article. Regardless of which choice is picked, I find it undeniable that something needs to be done.

Proposer: Time Turner (talk)
Deadline: May 16, 2015, 23:59 GMT Extended: May 23, 2015, 23:59 GMT, May 30, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Split the Boos into a single separate article

1. Tails777 (talk) Wait, misread the options and I feel this is a better idea. I've always believed that just because two similar, yet different enemies who share the same name in another language, but have clear differences doesn't mean they are the same deal (or vise versa). I'd sooner support merging TTYD's Piranha Plants to regular Piranha Plants cause they look and act the same as Piranha Plants in the previous game and future games. But more on topic, Atomic Boos are definitely different from Big Boos in how they are formed and how they attack. I may wonder about the whole Big Boo from Sticker Star thing, but it seems more relatable to an Atomic Boo as opposed to a Big Boo.
2. Walkazo (talk) - Like I said on the forums, splitting the four three PM Atomic Boos into a separate article (i.e. Atomic Boo) is a reasonable idea (based on all the differences listed). It's not a recurring character since different sets of Boos are involved each time, and saying there are multiple identical characters seems way more ponderous than simply treating it like a recurring enemy species for the purpose of navigation and organization (then just discuss within the article how it's also like a form Boos can take).
3. Toadbrigade5 (talk) What a great way to celebrate my return than to vote in a hopeless proposal! Per All.
4. ShyGuy8 (talk) Per All.
5. Time Turner (talk) Per all.
6. Lumastar (talk) Per all.
7. Marshal Dan Troop (talk) Per all.
8. Mario (talk) I'm leaning a bit toward this side. As for 1337star's comment, I feel that a simple type weakness discrepancy isn't the best analogy. Atomic Boos have much more differences than a contradictory typing including abilities, name, and make-up. To handwave these differences as "artistic license" when they're, in my opinion, much more significant than the differences between the Dry Bones is not a strong argument. We don't split the Dry Bones because they're undead Koopas called "Dry Bones" that can resurrect after crumbling, and they can be defeated by only limited means. They otherwise share names, act the same, and are defeated with quite similar measures. In the other hand, though, in Sticker Star, Big Boo should remain as Big Boo due to a lack of continuity from the previous games and the lack of a name change.
9. Yoshi876 (talk) Per all.
10. LudwigVon (talk) Per all.
11. Burningdragon25 (talk) Per all.

Do nothing

1. Binarystep (talk) I feel that we're reaching a point where we entirely disregard the Japanese names and rely entirely on English localizations, which I feel is a horrible idea. The thing is, this is a Japanese series, and by ignoring the original names, we're disregarding creator's intent. Ultimately, just because a localizer translated something differently doesn't actually mean much unless the differences are extremely major, not a minor change similar to Paper Mario series Bill Blasters being fairly weak enemies instead of indestructible level components. And as for the differences mentioned, enemies act different between games all the time. Boos in Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine can be jumped on, a trait not shared in any other games (except the RPGs, but that can be explained as basic RPG physics).
2. 1337star (talk) Dry Bones in the platformers are immune to fire, Dry Bones in Paper Mario can only be defeated by fire. Should we split the PM Dry Bones from the main article? Of course not. The different behavior in the PM Big/Atomic Boos is clearly nothing more than artistic license on the part of Intelligent Systems, as is the decision to retranslate their name to be more in line with the original Japanese.
3. Magikrazy (talk) Per both.
4. LinkTheLefty (talk) I think too much focus is put on The Thousand-Year Door and Sticker Star incarnations, but not enough is factored on the Super Paper Mario version. In the latter, it acts just like any other Boo, and doesn't exhibit any special characteristics whatsoever. The only thing that somewhat connects it is the line, "Some say it's a gathering of many smaller Boos," but in any case, the language used suggests this is hearsay and not confirmation. It's just a cute reference to the former Big Boo, where that was clearly the case. I believe a case can definitely be made for splitting the former two on the basis of them respectively being a boss and mini-boss, especially since there's already a sort of precedent with the unique Super Mario World appearance; but I'm not convinced we should throw in the latter enemy as well.
5. SmokedChili (talk) Per all.

Comments

@Walkazo: Still three Boos. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Goddammit... - Walkazo 21:25, 2 May 2015 (EDT)

@Binarystep: As Time Turner pointed out, there are still several factors that make Atomic Boos more unique in comparison to Big Boos. Atomic Boos (and Sticker Star's Big Boo) are made up of 100-200 smaller Boos while Big Boos are literally just big Boos. TTYD's Atomic Boo also use that idea as a form of attack. I don't think we're disregarding original naming here, I think it's just going with what makes the most sense, in this case stating that Atomic Boos are more different than Big Boos. Tails777 Talk to me!

It still doesn't seem like much of a difference considering how there have been a lot of cases where enemies act slightly differently than normal as a stylistic choice. Binarystep (talk) 21:36, 2 May 2015 (EDT)

Binary, I've already explained on the Gritty Goomba proposal, which I linked to, that names are absolutely not the absolute deciding factor when it comes to differences. The bit about "creator's intent" is also incredibly speculative, since, unless you can provide some sort of source that proves otherwise, we have no idea what it was. Maybe they weren't aware that a "Big Boo" already existed in the Mario series, or maybe it was just an easy name to use to show the difference in size, or maybe they were intended to be the same, but the fact of the matter is that going solely off of nothing more than a matching name would make any attempt speculative beyond belief, which leaves us to make further interpretations from all of the other information that's available, like their appearance, or their abilities, or their locations, or the fact that they're single, or the fact that they're an amalgamation of Boos (which is an enormous difference in and of itself, again, as I've already explained). This can't just be brushed off as a difference between genres; there's simply way too much of a gap. Binary, can you provide an example of an enemy that encompasses changes in abilities and physiology that are just as extreme as the Atomic Boos? Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Their appearance isn't really that different from regular Big Boos though? It's not like we have a comparison anyway... But I can see a good argument to split, especially considering that one's an enemy species and these are bosses. As for other enemies with major differences, consider Lava Bubbles (which tend to look/act different on a regular basis, and even have different origins in PM:TTYD), Koopa Troopas (which also look/act different all the time), or even Bill Blasters (which can be killed easily in the Paper Mario series, and look more like generic cannons (they don't even have the skull insignia)). Binarystep (talk) 22:16, 2 May 2015 (EDT)

It couldn't hurt to be a little more specific than "they're different", right? Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Well, there's the thing with Lava Bubbles randomly going between obstacle and enemy, being able to be jumped on in Super Mario RPG, or their being undead in TTYD. Or Koopa Troopas randomly going between two-legged/four-legged, acting differently when jumped on depending on the game (hiding in their shells, flying out as Beach Koopas, being flipped over), or their shells acting differently depending on the game (usually being projectiles, but acting odd in games such as Super Mario 64). Binarystep (talk) 22:32, 2 May 2015 (EDT)

"The thing is, this is a Japanese series, and by ignoring the original names, we're disregarding creator's intent."
I feel the reasons for relying on Japanese name alone is oversimplifying what is actually going on in the localization process. I feel that the Japanese names alone should not always take priority over the English names alone. How can you be so sure how independent the localization process goes? Don't you think the "creators" might have some idea what the localizers do? It's been always bugging me that you rely on Japanese name alone. It's not a horrible way to argue, don't get me wrong, but it tends to require some valid supporting evidence to back up those statements. Finally, "creator intent" feels like a very weak argument to invoke because it's so vague and has little supporting details to explain what exactly "creator intent" is? Maybe the localizers do have a point in naming them differently, you know? In the end, I think whatever name makes more sense wins, not regional origins. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 19:24, 23 May 2015 (EDT)

I'm actually trying to find some "valid supporting evidence" (e.g. guides/ingame Tattles/etc.) to back up my arguments, so there's that. Binarystep (talk) 19:33, 23 May 2015 (EDT)

That's good, but you should've voted AFTER you're more informed on the subject. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 19:43, 23 May 2015 (EDT)

I'm actually considering changing my stance (considering the Paper Mario Big Boos are bosses, not a species). Binarystep (talk) 20:05, 23 May 2015 (EDT)

"Boos in Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine can be jumped on, a trait not shared in any other games (except the RPGs, but that can be explained as basic RPG physics)."
You can also punch them in the face and kick them (if you turn quickly enough) to kill them. Also, the only means to defeat them, the Star, doesn't appear as an invincibility item, so I can say, "that can be explained as basic Super Mario 64 mechanics". Super Mario Sunshine is a successor, so that's self-explanatory. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:30, 23 May 2015 (EDT)

Good point, especially since Sunshine was a bit...different than the other games. Binarystep (talk) 20:35, 23 May 2015 (EDT)

I don't understand how one of the particular enemy appearing only once is a working argument. We also have Wiggler, who in SM64 appears once as a boss as opposed to his usual role of an uncommon enemy. And speaking of Boolossus, known as Jumbo Boo in Japan, he appeared in Luigi's Mansion 2 going by the Japanese name, but his appearance and behaviour (and physiology) differ from the Luigi's Mansion incarnation.

The reason why some of us use the Japanese names above all so often as an argument is because they are constant most of the time and from genre to genre, compared to the behaviour, roles and appearance that change between those (though the last one is rare nowadays). The Japanese versions are more of an indication that a single enemy can adapt to different roles, assume different appearances and learn new techniques, compared to the common intepretation here that reasonable enough differences in behaviour, role and (localized) names should lead to separation of the enemies otherwise considered the same. As for the ”localizers having a point” and thus ”making more sense” and ”being right about it”, with that stance there's a risk that we end up creating speculative stuff of our own. And when the article is trimmed out of that, is the remaining info enough to justify the separation from the other article informing the readers about basically the same thing? For example, ”Atomic Boo” is only a different English name from ”Big Boo”, and doesn't mean that it's a different species/entity/type/whatever of Big Boo. Same for the names in other languages, they're only different names and nothing else. Big Boos in Sticker Star and Luigi's Mansion 2 (going by the English name) are both singular bosses and formations of Boos like Atomic Boos, so that's a link in physiology and role between the two. Boos in early Paper Mario games look slightly different from the usual, as do the majority of the other enemies, so that's not a good argument in this case. And behaviour is prone to changes according to the game and genre. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 07:00, 26 May 2015 (EDT)

I think the Wiggler is still called "Wiggler" in Super Mario 64. One can argue that the Wiggler is reworked as a boss in a 3D platforming environment. That it looks different in Super Mario 64 than it does in Super Mario World, you can say it's from severe graphic limitations.

Using the Japanese names alone isn't always a surefire way to determine which enemies should be split, which ones shouldn't. I feel like they're not compelling cases by themselves. I wasn't arguing that "localizers make more sense", but more that they don't operate entirely out of the blue and give different names just for the sake of it. You have to consider their thought process as well, and we would probably operate on a more similar thinking process as the localizers because, well, most of us aren't native Japanese Mario developers. Which is why it can be difficult determining the names sometimes. That being said, I am aware of the Piranha Plant (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door) page, stuff where the Japanese name is considered, but I supported it to remain split because the American name is the only conflicting info, so it carries less weight. In Atomic Boo's case, however, the names are much more conflicting, so you can't use the same arguments here.

We are separating "Atomic Boo" from Big Boo because looks can be deceiving. That it has a different name is only supporting evidence, but this Atomic Boo, how it is encountered, how it forms, and how it attacks. While you can argue that Big Boo in several games (in Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon and Sticker Star) attacks (some of its attacks, not all) and forms similarly, it has continued to be called "Atomic Boo", showing some continuity and perhaps suggesting that it is a different entity. As Walkazo said, perhaps it's better to put all the "Atomic Boos" under one article for the ease of navigation. Each argument alone doesn't make for a very strong case, but when put together, I feel like this is enough to split it from this page. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 00:58, 27 May 2015 (EDT)

So they think different looks, role and behaviour from the core design are a sign of a different entity, and don't consider under any present difference the possibility that it is supposed to be the core design modified for the particular occasion? Isn't that why we got enemy names like ”Flopsy Fish”, ”Spiny Fish”, ”Gabon” etc., some of which were pretty recently merged here by using the Japanese names as a connection? Even if the following games in the subseries create their own consistency from the core, what then when the subseries shifts towards the core? This proposal doesn't adress that. Is Big Boo in Sticker Star an handwave from the localizers to differiate it from Atomic Boos just to make ”more sense”, or did they not realize they're supposed to be the same (ugh) species? Also, since Pale Piranha is Piranha Plant in Japan (and not even called a subspecies there, as I've heard) and TTYD Piranha Plant is actually Killer Piranha, what reason would the localizers would have to name them such and such? Their looks, because it makes ”more sense” than follow their Japanese names?

Look at Kamek for example. The NOA localizers make him his own character, while the NOE localizers have made him just a random member of the same-name species similar to the Japanese version. Someone would also think that his SSBWIIU trophy is wrong about Super Mario World being his first game, but this page from this guide also marks Super Mario World as his first game, meaning the trophy is actually correct. So is Kamek really the individual we thought him to be? And then there's the NTSC version of the Puzzle and Dragons crossover. Why is there this one Magikoopa, who is called Kamek, and thus having his name unchanged compared to the other Magikoopas, who are all called Kameks in PAL and Japanese versions? What were the NOA localizers thinking? "Follow what we established"? "Appeal to the fandom"? "It's right this way"? Why would that make more sense? Wouldn't making more sense be more decieving than looks? SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 12:04, 30 May 2015 (EDT)

That's my issue with our entire argument. You can argue from both sides, but it's really based on interpretation. You can argue that they're same, and the differences are due to the demands from a different genre and developer require such changes. You can argue that they're different because they have drastic behavioral differences and the naming is different, which has been retained in a sequel title. I can't argue for the Japanese naming consistency here, as I feel that making assumptions from those precedents don't make for a compelling argument, so proposals like this generally go case-by-case supported by precedent, rather than using precedent as the MAIN argument. In other words, "case-by-case" is a common problem here, at least from my experience.

The "subseries deriving from the core and then reverting to the core" argument does sound like a problem, but as I said, the case-by-case basis of these arguments make it very difficult to determine the exact answer to these. Anyway, let me think of an example. What would happen if there was a new Goomba called "Goomba" in the 1st-party developed Mario Fishing series, and it looks like a fish with a Goomba head and happens to be the penultimate boss? We'd probably split that. But what if that same enemy then becomes, well, a Goomba and is the weakest enemy in the game? Then we probably add information to both articles.

I feel the Kamek issue is another localization issue that has little relation to the Big Boo / Atomic Boo situation we're having. It's similar to that whole Toad species and Toad character debacle where it's not clear who's a just a generic member and who's the distinguished member. I don't know the NOA localizers' intent this time, but, as I said, I think it's a different case all together. It feels like an arbitrary localization compared to Big Boo / Atomic Boo, which the two are quite different. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 21:24, 3 June 2015 (EDT)

Was this really a good idea?

I know this is all said and done, but I'd like to throw a few things out there.

Firstly, for purposes of navigation, the split was just very inconvenient.

Secondly, I saw the argument of "as a boss, it is a distinct individual." Now this argument has a few problems, namely that the different big boos in the Paper series are also distinct from each other, and have wildly varying specifications (a point I'll go over soon). Another thing is that the Super Mario 64 incarnation was also stated to be an individual as well. Also, all then distinct large Wigglers that are used as bosses are in the main Wiggler article, despite the many varying characterizations and differences from the generic enemy. As well as the fact that, to my knowledge anyway, King Boo from the Luigi's Mansion games and the King Boo from the other games are still in one article, despite certainly being distinct characters.

Thirdly, another argument given was how it had differing abilities from the main series big boos, such as a glare and ability to shoot out smaller boos. The thing is, many enemies from Paper Mario (and the other RPGs) attack vastly different from their main series counterparts. In what platforming, main series games can you find: Headbonking Goombas? Non-Kamikaze Troopas going into their shells to attack? Parasitic/Bouncing Fuzzies? Boos that turn other enemies invisible? Pokeys that can summon more of themselves and toss their segments? Spike Tops that go into their shells at all? Ninjis that do the log trick? Magikoopas that can electrify other enemies or make them invisible? Crayzee Dayzees that can put people to sleep? Piranha Plants that travel through soil to pop up and bite? Dry Bones with a weakness to fire? Bullet Bill Blasters that can be defeated with enough powerful jumps? Paragoombas and Paratroopas swooping down in an arc to hit Mario? Lava Bubbles/Podoboos/Sparkies/Spark Spooks flying around aimlessly in order to pursue Mario when he approaches?

Essentially, I think this needs to be reexamined. -Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:17, 30 May 2017 (CT)

I have issues in general with how the members here want to split articles. I find it artificially inflating the number of articles there are to browse. In reality, it becomes harder to look up and maintain things. There are templates that don't get updated. Typing out a distinction in parenthesis is a pain in the butt if the species/item/etc. is the same. It makes sense to do this with Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong (game), Donkey Kong (Game Boy). It doesn't make sense to do this with Skeeter and Skeeter (New Super Mario Bros.), just because the method of attack changes. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) ^{(Stats - Contribs)} 19:33, 30 May 2017 (EDT)

Except the NSMB Skeeters have a different Japanese name too, so considering that and their completely different appearance and attack pattern, it looks more like the English name is a mistake. Niiue (talk) 19:49, 30 May 2017 (EDT)

I was always rather confused by this split. Sure, the Paper Big Boos are bosses. But so is the Big Boo of Super Mario 64. Sure, they have different powers and abilities. But that argument can also be made for King Boo and King Boo (Luigi's Mansion series) (and how about Big Boo (Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon) vs. Boolossus?). Sure, some of them go under a different name. But we often keep articles together depending on Japanese names and both normal Big Boos and the Paper versions have been called Atomic Boo in Japanese. I must agree, this split needs more consideration.

Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 21:04, 30 May 2017 (EDT)

Re-merge Big Boo (Paper Mario) with Big Boo

Template:SettledTPP Template:ProposalOutcome As I mentioned above, Big Boos are pretty clearly just as much the same thing as Paper Big Boos to be the same thing as Goombas and Paper Goombas are. Main-series platforming games lack...

• Headbonking Goombas
• Non-Kamikaze Troopas going into their shells to attack
• Parasitic/Bouncing Fuzzies
• Boos that turn other enemies invisible
• Pokeys that can summon more of themselves and toss their segments
• Spike Tops that go into their shells at all
• Ninjis that do the log trick
• Magikoopas that can electrify other enemies or make them invisible
• Crayzee Dayzees that can put people to sleep
• Piranha Plants that travel through soil to pop up and bite
• Dry Bones with a weakness to fire
• Bullet Bill Blasters that can be defeated with enough powerful jumps
• Paragoombas and Paratroopas swooping down in an arc to hit Mario
• Lava Bubbles/Podoboos/Sparkies/Spark Spooks flying around aimlessly in order to pursue Mario when he approaches

...so I feel it is odd and a bit unfair to categorize Big Boos as different, especially since the Boos in Super Mario Sunshine were more different from normal than this. It's also inconvenient for people with low bandwidth, as I can attest to, due to having browsed this site since before Bowser's Inside Story and NSMBW were even announced, and a good portion of that time saw the computer slow to a crawl due to Norton Security causing it to take up to 40 minutes to switch pages. So I think that having two pages split that are just as similar as most other paper enemies is a bit....unneeded and inconvenient, especially for people who can't change pages fast. Now as for whether anything else should go under Big Boo (boss) like the one from Big Boo's Haunt or the Paper Mario ones, I'd prefer to think over for now.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: July 30, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per my proposal and reasons stated above.
2. Yoshi the SSM (talk) I am voting this option, not because of the time it takes to go between pages, but because Super Paper Mario's Big Boo is just a bigger boo, Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door's Big Boo is suppose to be the same as Super Paper Mario's Big Boo, and Paper Mario: Sticker Star says Big Boo, so it would be a lot easier if it was on this page.
3. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per proposal. I especially think Paper Mario: Sticker Star's Big Boo should be on this page, as the only similarities are that it's from the Paper Mario series, and that Sticker Star's is made of smaller Boos, like in Thousand Year Door (which is not exclusive to the Paper Mario series).
4. Ultimate Mr. L (talk) Per all and the comments above.
5. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Compare it to the reason why all of the individual Wigglers were merged into the parent article. Not too different, huh?
6. Niiue (talk) Per my original reasons for opposing the split.
7. SmokedChili (talk) Per all.
8. The yoshi co. (talk) per all.
9. LuigiMaster123 (talk) Per all.

Oppose

1. Time Turner (talk) My original proposal is still valid, especially with Big Boo (boss) in existence.
2. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) Why isn't Big Boo (Paper Mario series) named Atomic Boo? Big Boos aren't comprised of Boos.

Comments

One question: your solution to helping out people with low bandwidth is to make an even bigger article, with more text and more images? That seems counterproductive. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 23:22, 16 July 2017 (EDT)

Except That that includes all the ads and titles and just traveling in general. That makes it take longer when they are separate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:53, 17 July 2017 (CT)

Admittedly, this particular Wiki is currently rather lacking in ads, but the titles and such, the changing of the URL, takes time. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:55, 17 July 2017 (CT)

That's simply not how it works. The reason why we advocate splitting large galleries or large lists is exactly because dividing this information is what helps. Lumping them all into one mega article means that computers need to load more elements at the same time, which is bad if you want to decrease load times. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 10:38, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

There's only one problem with your argument: it only includes examples from lists and galleries. This is another matter entirely, and more closely resembles the decision made in this proposal. ^(T|C) 10:55, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

I'm aware of that. I'm only referencing one section of the proposal, where Schmeltwick cites low bandwidth as a reason why the articles should be merged. To counter your example, though, see Gritty Goomba and Gritty Goomba. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 11:27, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

That was done due to statistical differences in several Superstar Saga enemies, however, and isn't consistent across the board (see the black and blue Snifits in Super Mario RPG). I'm not seeing the comparison to Big Boo/Atomic Boo. That, and for all we know, this could soon be an outdated example if the remake addresses it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:59, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

Another thing I remember, one of the reasons they were split was due to being an amalgamation of smaller Boos, which was never otherwise stated except in Dark Moon. However, most powerful subtypes of Boos are also amalgamations or groups of smaller Boos, like the original Stretch, Circling Boo Buddies, Boo Buddy Swarm, Boo Buddy Snake, Disappearing Boo Buddies, Big and Little Boo, and potentially even Bouldergeist, given how Bomb Boos spawn straight from the ghostly black fog he emits in his weakest stage. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:49, 17 July 2017 (CT) @WildgooseSpeeder I take it you've never played Dark Moon, the Big Boo there was comprised of smaller Boos. And the Big Boo in Sticker Star was called Big Boo. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:02, 20 July 2017 (CT)

I have played Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon, as evidenced in my profile, my ScareScraper image contributions, and even replacing many screenshots in Category:Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon Images. It's just been a little while since I last played. I wonder if we should factor in quantity when defining a Big Boo. I mean Boolossus is something to consider too. Also, what makes Paper Mario (series) feel so different. Can't put a finger on it. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) ^{(Stats - Contribs)} 04:46, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

No, we shouldn't. They're the same thing. They have the same Japanese name, currently the same English name, same general purpose, it's pretty clear they're just as much the same as regular Boos and paper Boos are the same. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:53, 20 July 2017 (CT)

@WildgooseSpeeder: Naming policy. Big Boo is a more recent name in Paper Mario series than Atomic Boo. SmokedChili (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

Boo in a Box

About Mario's size

Distinctly larger than him

So looking at screenshots, the shrunk-down "Teresa Chief" from the Boo in a Box mission is still distinctly larger than the game's normal Boos, just not by a large margin, akin to the Big Boos in the Yoshi games. Should we still consider it a Big Boo, since technically it is? A "normal"-sized Big Boo wouldn't work for that challenge anyway due to the size of the box. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:02, October 26, 2019 (EDT)

Yes, since it's a larger-than-average Boo--a different model altogether even. There definitely needs to be a Super Mario Galaxy section added to the article to describe this appearance. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:13, October 26, 2019 (EDT)

The first thing to add is that Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. does not list it separately, or even mention the Boo's size when describing Boo in a Box, though it should be noted that certain enemies and objects don't have their own entries in every section, like Lava Bubble in Super Mario 64, Big Cheep Cheep in New Super Mario Bros. U or Big Deep Cheep in New Super Mario Bros. Wii and New Super Mario Bros. U. The Prima guide also gives no special name to this Boo, but it also doesn't have proper names for a lot of the game's enemies and derivatives. With that in mind, let's go with what we can observe from the game. The obvious connection that TeresaChief is supposed to be Big Boo is that the game's Big Goomba is known as KuriboChief. What does that mean for the sequel's Mega Boo? As the article states, that one is internally known as TeresaAtomic and thus is definitely supposed to be a Big Boo, but as far as I can tell, it's even bigger and doesn't actually use a duplicate model, and all three types of Boos have their own animations with some overlap. In fact, while it doesn't have a model on the disc, the first game's "Big Boo" data is still unused in the game and can be hacked back in if the files are copied over from the first game. Additionally, it's even named 「テレサチーフ」 - Teresa Chief. Given this, both big Boos could have been used in the same game, which is somewhat reminiscent of the Big Wiggler / Kyodai Hanachan situation. We can treat Teresa Chief and Mega Boo like that, or treat them like the Puchipuchi L article covers two large sizes. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:30, November 6, 2019 (EST)

Honestly, thinking about it, using unused data to determine whether things should b split or not is flawed, as in NSMBW the NSMB Mini Goombas are unused, with ones based off the SMB3 ones instead used in game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:05, November 6, 2019 (EST)

To be fair, internal data is not always the best indicator on whether something should be split (e.g. Bull's-Eye Bills and the like usually share the base model but have a red toggle, which we would normally treat as a color variation if it weren't for the name). The fact that the model archive was deleted from the ObjectData folder is a fairly strong indicator that it was probably just an unintended carryover from the first game and wasn't planned to be in the game together with the new Big Boo. There's also the fact that "chief" is possibly a translation of oyakata, as in Big Boo's name from Super Mario 64. So I side with handling it as we do the Puchipuchi L article, although it would make it one of the only returning enemies to be redesigned in the sequel (the other being Undergrunt Gunner, which is debatable as well due to certain behavioral and naming differences). LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:49, November 7, 2019 (EST)

I think Goombeetle had some subtle shading differences, and there was how Octoombas now turn red.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:41, November 7, 2019 (EST)

It's been quite a while since this was last commented on. Are there any objections to this being Big Boo? LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:00, May 25, 2021 (EDT)

No objections from me - it's a larger than average Boo, that's pretty much the only criteria. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 18:41, June 4, 2021 (EDT)

Mega Boo from Super Mario Galaxy 2

The "Mega Boo" from Super Mario Galaxy 2 seems to be its own thing as a proto-Boohemoth. Not only is the name different across languages, the four Boos that surround it are about the size of the "Boo in a Box" Big Boo from Super Mario Galaxy. I think perhaps it should be split. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:43, December 31, 2023 (EST)

I can see the gimmick, but as for the name, well Big Boos didn't really have a consistent Japanese name for quite some time (Jumbo Boo, Giant Boo). So, maybe. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 10:08, January 7, 2024 (EST)

Move the Dark Moon information to Boolossus

This talk page section contains an unresolved talk page proposal. Please try to help and resolve the issue by voting or leaving a comment.

Current time: Monday, November 11, 2024, 22:26 GMT

For all intents and purposes, the "Big Boo" from Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon is Boolossus from the predecessor and successor. Compare the battles in the first game and the second game: both times, it must be made to ram into a spiked obstruction to make it pop like a balloon into the smaller Boos, which are then captured in an atypical way (frozen in the first, imprisoned in train cars in the second). Both attack almost entirely by bouncing around and ramming. The only real differences are based on the differing gameplay elements and the different arena setpieces. To put this in perspective, these fights have more in common than the King Boo battles do.

Also, the Japanese names (Jumbo Teresa) are the same, though DM's development was admittedly a multi-national effort, though seeing as we're in the process of merging the mice and bats from these games as well despite their differences, this really isn't too big a difference. Also worth noting is that "Big Boo" was actually barely said in Dark Moon; note that it is nowhere in the boss video linked above.

Here is a demo of the merged page I made. This and the below proposal are the first stage in my attempt at cleaning this page now that everything that should be merged here is.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: January 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per Boo-posal
2. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
3. Arend (talk) While I do think it's perhaps a tad too early for this proposal (since the Nintendo Switch remake will be coming out this year), I do agree that the LM2!Big Boo is supposed to be some form of Boolossus that may have gotten confused for an ordinary Big Boo boss, likely due to its rather plain appearance.
4. Blinker (talk) Per proposal.
5. SmokedChili (talk) Per proposal.
6. Sgt. Sarge (talk) Yes I agree. After re-watching the boss fight again it is very similar to the Boolossus fight from the first LM.

Oppose

1. DrippingYellow (talk) Ehh, I feel like if the developers originally intended the LM2 Big Boo to be Boolossus, they would've made it... look like Boolossus, especially considering that King Boo's general appearance was carried over from the first game, plus when they for-sure reintroduced Boolossus in LM3, they did use his original design. And as I said in the Crow proposal, it's not as simple as looking at the Japanese name, since the game was primarily developed by a Canadian company, with Nintendo staff credited as "supervisors".
   Sure, it's possible that the Big Boo was intended to be Boolossus from the start, but if there's any doubt at all, then wouldn't it be more encyclopedia-like to take the English LM2 at face value? (Also, you're citing as precedent a proposal that still has over a week left to vote on?) <-- Ignore this, I'd mistook the proposal he was talking about for another proposal. Yeah, I definitely can't see the bat and mouse proposal not passing.
2. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per DrippingYellow.
3. Dark-Boy-1up (talk) Per DrippingYellow. Plus the big boo from Dark moon, and the Boolossus in the first and third game look not similar at all.
4. Mario (talk) Seems speculative. Contrary evidence being different appearance and explicitly different name in English, unlike the merged bats and mice (with weird deemphasis on the English name and too much emphasis on somewhat generic Japanese name of the thing not withstanding). Evidence being largely a shared design and similar boss battle (but not the same; boss battle involves a moving train in the sequel, first game involves a statue; boss battle is defeated through entirely different measures as well) doesn't inspire enough confidence for me to say Boolussus and Big Boo from LM2 are the same entities.
5. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
6. Swallow (talk) Per all
7. Jdtendo (talk) Per all
8. 7feetunder (talk) I was considering proposing this myself... then the HD remaster got announced. Unlike the Super Soda thing, HD will definitely affect how we handle this, whether the name is changed or not. I'd rather wait for the remaster on this one.
9. Okapii (talk) Per all, just seems too speculative imo.
10. OmegaRuby (talk) Per all, however, the Nintendo Switch remake might ultimately change all of this, so it's best to just wait for that to release. I'm really hoping I'm wrong, though.

Comments

@DrippingYellow I didn't say "precedent," I said "in the process" considering that while it isn't passed yet, it has overwhelming support. IMO it feels more like a halfhearted attempt to reconcile Boolossus with Big Boo that was went back on for LM remake and LM3 (and it still looks kinda off from normal Big Boos due to it and its smaller versions being lit in an odd unique way compared to everything else... even in the same room). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:47, January 11, 2024 (EST)

There is no "unique lighting" for the Big Boo. If you look closely, Luigi's skin turns green and such as well in the cutscene, and you can see red and blue highlights on both the Boos and Luigi. The Boos even appear a normal color when you've aimed your flashlight at them, so it's definitely the room that has weird lighting. Also, who is this singular Big Boo that Boolossus would have to be reconciled with? Big Boos aren't a recurring character or anything like that, they're just big... Boos, and they pretty much always appear as enemies. If this Big Boo wasn't named after Boolossus in the Japanese version, then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all regardless of their mechanical similarities.

(Also, about the crow proposal: it was completely tied for votes as of writing my vote, and still is as of this comment (4-to-4). I wouldn't call that overwhelming support, personally, though with how your Dino Piranha proposal took a while to get going, I guess there's always a chance...) DrippingYellow (talk) 20:56, January 11, 2024 (EST)

....I didn't say the crow proposal, I said my bat and mouse proposal. Also, I didn't say reconciled with a pre-existing singular character, I mean with Big Boos in general, who sometimes are identified in the singular (hence the recurring phrase of "The Big Boo"). (That being said, there is a singular recurring character that was inconsistently localized as "Big Boo" along with having slight variance in its Japanese identification creating a bit of a localization mess... I've documented that here, though it's still a WiP while I verify a few things.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:56, January 11, 2024 (EST)

Ohhhh, whoops, my bad. I can see how the crows and bats might relate to discussion about the LM2 Big Boo, since they have wildly different appearances and yet are set to be merged. (Though, where is the name "The Big Boo" (specifically formatted in that manner) even used outside of the credits of Super Mario World?)
Being fought in a somewhat similar manner to Boolossus doesn't convince me, though: I think it entirely possible that the boss is heavily inspired by Boolossus, but not intended to be the same character. Again, we can't really be sure whether the game's story was originally written in Japanese, or if the Big Boo being Boolossus is an invention of the Japanese script. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't seem like the era where Nintendo themselves would make notable mistakes with the game's localization, either. I'm more inclined towards keeping this in the Big Boo article just to be safe. DrippingYellow (talk) 00:03, January 12, 2024 (EST)

The Mario Mania guide, several other SNES-era materials, and SM64 with this quote:

“Boooooo-m! Here comes the master of mischief, the tower of terror, the Big Boo! Ka ha ha ha...”

—Boo, Super Mario 64

I can think of offhand. Not even counting the misnamed normal Boo from SMRPG. That all being said, if it comes down to it, moving the Boolossus page to "Big Boo (Luigi's Mansion series)" wouldn't be an issue. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:47, January 12, 2024 (EST)

But isn't Boolossus the most recently used name anyway? I don't see why the whole article would have to be renamed. Unless you're talking about moving LM2's Big Boo to its own article, which... I'm not sure how I'd feel about that. DrippingYellow (talk) 19:18, January 13, 2024 (EST)

LM2r is coming out soon. We'll see what it does. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:34, January 13, 2024 (EST)

It's strange how LM2's credits don't seem to mention any writers. Maybe the writing was just done by different people here and there... or maybe I'm missing something. Either way, there are Japanese-to-English translators credited, so it was probably written originally in Japanese? Or it was written in both languages simultaneously, most likely, given how different the scripts are. Blinker (talk) 17:40, January 11, 2024 (EST)

The credits actually list both an NOA Localization as well as a "Japanese localization group" by Nintendo Software Technology Corporation, whatever that's supposed to mean (is it a group that translates Japanese into English, or vice versa?), and there's also an "Asia Localization" section separate from the Korean and Chinese localizations. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't think I've seen a "Japanese Localization group" in any other Mario game's credits. Not that it narrows down the options that much, just confirms what we already knew: that there was something funky going on with the localization. DrippingYellow (talk) 20:56, January 11, 2024 (EST)

Actually, that "Asia Localization" section isn't present in most versions of the credits. I found it in some Korean footage, alongside the Korean and Chinese sections, so it seems to be about those two. The sections actually seem to have been somewhat haphazardly shoved in the middle of the "Nintendo" section. Not sure about that Japanese localization group, though... Blinker (talk) 07:32, January 12, 2024 (EST)

Alrighty, I did some digging in the executable and found that: the LM2 Big Boo is in fact, referred to as "bigboo" interally, so that basically settles what the developers intended it to be, I think. (Not sure what Boolossus' internal name in the other Luigi's Mansion games is for comparison...)
Now the decision is whether to trust the internal name or to go by the Japanese version's name. DrippingYellow (talk) 20:50, January 13, 2024 (EST)

That makes me a bit curious as to the LM3 internal name, actually. A distinct possibility is that they called this one a generic Big Boo due to Boolossus being returned to the painting, only to go back on that for LM3. I guess we don't know if NLG is developing the remake yet, so we'll see how that goes... regardless, I still think moving it out of the Big Boo article is the right way to go, since it's functionally still near-identical to Boolossus and very little to a prior Big Boo, and I still think it's most plausible they were trying to retroactively treat Boolossus as a normal Big Boo before going back on that for the third game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:25, January 13, 2024 (EST)

...How is the distinct possibility you're mentioning not equivalent to the Big Boo not being Boolossus, exactly? Might I add, this isn't even the only instance of a generic Big Boo comprised of several smaller Boos. See: Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door and Paper Mario: Sticker Star, plus a similar smaller-enemies-combined-into-one-larger-enemy concept was explored in the New Super Mario Bros. games for the larger Goomba variants.
And if you're going to base the merge off of the possibility that they might rename the Big Boo into Boolossus for the remake, you wouldn't really lose anything by cancelling the proposal now and then waiting for the LM2 remake to come out to see if that's actually the case, then starting another proposal. As it stands, there's really not any proof of a connection currently other than the Japanese name. DrippingYellow (talk) 21:39, January 13, 2024 (EST)

From a conceptual and functional standpoint, they're basically the same. Boolossus is the Luigi's Mansion series version of Big Boo, which is what this is. Had they originally localized "Jumbo Teresa" as "Big Boo" for the first game, the purpose of this proposal would be different, but it would probably still be happening. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:43, January 13, 2024 (EST)

(ec) Boos combining/splitting just seems like a occasional thing they do. See Boo Blast (move) as well. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 21:47, January 13, 2024 (EST)

Okay then, let's merge Gold Ghosts, Greenies, and Goobs while we're at it. And what about Goombas and Masked Ghouls? The latter's article even mentions they act functionally the same. The truth of the matter is, the wiki's documentation has never been about organizing based on concepts and functions to my knowledge, it's been about providing unique coverage for enemies, obstacles, abilities, games, etc. that are distinct from each other, though obviously some exceptions have to be made in cases of objects with extremely close similarities, e.g. Cement Block and Hard Block, or objects that only exist in proximity with a minigame or something, e.g. Bomb seeds.

They are sometimes visually distinct or have a different name between games, in which case some extra research is needed to determine whether it's just a reinterpretation or something else entirely. This is one of those cases: and from the little research that can be done (datamining), I had no choice but to conclude this was intended to just be a Big Boo, further supported by the fact that it just looks like a Boo, not Boolossus. Whether it's been retconned into Boolossus due to the Japanese version is up for debate, but unable to be confirmed. DrippingYellow (talk) 22:16, January 13, 2024 (EST)

You're missing my point. The retcon has more to do with the LM3 appearance, and common mooks acting like other common mooks isn't a big deal, compared to two vastly similar bosses having a near-identical pattern of attack and weakness, plus consistent names in a contextually important language. I think it would be easier to list how the behavior and characterization of the jumbo ghost evolved with it all on one page as opposed to the middle one shoved off somewhere else amidst an already-bloated page. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:44, January 13, 2024 (EST)

We don't need to totally merge this Big Boo to Boolossus in order to list the evolution of Boolossus-type bosses. We do something similar already with Goombo in Super Mario Land being listed in the history section for the Goomba, or Shellcreepers being mentioned as predecessors to Koopa Troopas, or the SMB3 Warp Zone having its article linked to in the Warp Zone article... you see where I'm going with this.

Describing the attack pattern "near-identical" seems like kind of an exaggeration in my eyes. They're both big Boos that you split apart into tinier Boos by popping them with a sharp object, which you can then deal with individually, and the combined Boo has a slam attack, but that's about where the similarities end. The method for defeating the Boos is completely different in LM2: its Boos are more like a stripped-down version of the Boos found throughout the game, whereas Boolossus' Boos (at least in LM1) have a unique behavior and battle method compared to other Boos.

Also... are you extrapolating that the Big Boo in LM2 was retconned to Boolossus based off of Boolossus' appearance with his "original design" (as far as we know, his only design) in LM3? Not to mention he only appears in the optional ScareScraper mode, if you even want to call that him being canonically released from his portrait. DrippingYellow (talk) 23:26, January 13, 2024 (EST)

There's not a lot more to the respective battles, though. Anyway, I still think the "Jumbo Teresa" thing adds more validation to a merge. Even if the direct programmers were English-language, the devs for the first game and the IP holders in general are Japanese-language (also, do we know if NLG did the pre-implementation design phase? I guess that's getting a bit too deep...). I suppose it really just comes down to point-of-view which is better, as either has justification to give priority. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:38, January 14, 2024 (EST)

Please correct me if I am misreading this, but it sounds like even if this proposal doesn't fly, there would still be interest in consolidating the LM2 Big Boo and Boolosus info together under a "Big Boo (Luigi's Mansion series)" article or even just making a separate "Big Boo (Luigi's Mansion 2)" for the LM2 boss. If we ultimately decide here that this boss is not best understood as Boolosus, why couldn't that information just stay in the "Big Boo" article? - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:52, January 14, 2024 (EST)

You know, this is just speculation (so not much of an argument, just fun to think about), but I'm thinking, maybe someone at Nintendo suggested using the existing "Jumbo Teresa" character, and because of the language difference, that "Jumbo Teresa" became "Big Boo"? As in, "you could use this boss called Jumbo Teresa, he's a large Teresa made of smaller Teresa that you pop like a balloon", and whatever bilingual person was in charge of coordinating didn't know that what Jumbo Teresa was called in English and just translated that as "Jumbo Boo" or "Big Boo"? Might even explain the eyes, if the Japanese side thought it was Boolossus, and the Canadian side thought it was a regular large Boo, and both thought they were talking about the same thing? Blinker (talk) 15:03, January 14, 2024 (EST)

Split Mega Boo from Super Mario Galaxy 2

This talk page section contains an unresolved talk page proposal. Please try to help and resolve the issue by voting or leaving a comment.

Current time: Monday, November 11, 2024, 22:26 GMT

From what I can tell, the enormous "Mega Boo" from SMG2 is its own thing. The smaller Boos that accompany it are already a size larger than the game's normal Boos, and the Mega Boo itself is utterly enormous, functioning more as a prototypical Boohemoth than a normal Big Boo. Also, the names in English and Japanese (and Italian) are unique.

Here is a demo of the merged page I made. This and the above proposal are the first stage in my attempt at cleaning this page now that everything that should be merged here is.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: January 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Boo proposal
2. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per proposal.
3. Sparks (talk) Per all.
4. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
5. Blinker (talk) Per proposal.
6. Dark-Boy-1up (talk) Per proposal.
7. Nintendo101 (talk) Per below.
8. OmegaRuby (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose

1. SmokedChili (talk) Actually, Kyodai Teresa was first used in the SMW manual to describe Atomic Teresa, so it's not a unique name. So, given the "Mega"/"Big" overlap on this wiki, I see it fine to keep this merged.

Comments

I dunno, "Kyodai Teresa" follows the naming pattern of "big" enemies in the Galaxy games, and other "big" enemies are similarly enormous compared to most games, so it feels off to give this one special treatment just because there's an in-between size. Blinker (talk) 10:25, January 11, 2024 (EST)

Are you sure? Last I checked, the others used "Deka," not "Kyodai." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:28, January 11, 2024 (EST)

Ahh, sorry!! I misremembered. Blinker (talk) 10:31, January 11, 2024 (EST)

I'm abstaining because I'm personally unsure. On the one hand it has a unique name in Japanese and English. On the other hand, Big Boo has had a numerous amount of Japanese names and the PRIMA strategy guide calls the big spook "King Boo" at one point. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 12:41, January 11, 2024 (EST)

By the way, this Boo's description in the Encyclopedia says「大きなテレサ。4体のテレサを引き連れて追いかけてくる 。」, which refers to the four Boos that accompany it as simply "Teresa". That's probably not too important, just thought I'd mention it. Kinda reminds me of how regular Boos came in two different sizes in the original Yoshi's Island, before they started distinguishing the bigger ones. Blinker (talk) 14:08, January 11, 2024 (EST)

@SmokedChili To be fair, during the early days "Kyodai" was the go-to name for big things, but it's fallen by the wayside to refer to more 'extra' big things since then, like Mega Mario, in favor of more basic words like "dai" and "deka." And that was probably meant more as a description (counterpart to the "huge spook" in the English manual) than an actual name considering it was otherwise consistently the Atomic Teresa for that game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:02, January 12, 2024 (EST)

I am a bit wary of the fact that the Japanese name for the Mega Boo in Super Mario Galaxy 2 (巨大テレサ) sees its first use in the instruction booklet for Super Mario World which... is the first appearance of Big Boos. I'd like to understand a little more about this, but I'm inclined to think it is still valid for them to be understood as the same enemy. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:38, January 12, 2024 (EST)

See my comment right above. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:49, January 12, 2024 (EST)

I have a bad habit of skimming sometimes, so I missed that SmokedChili brought up the same point, which Doc von Schmeltwick literally just answered, so sorry about that. However, I still would like to have a little more context, because at least superficially, I'm not sure what is going on with the enemy here that would make it distinct from Big Boos. This was really the first time EAD Tokyo tried integrating a large Boo enemy in one of their games, so we don't really have a baseline reference for if the enemy's behavior in SMG2 was an intentional deviation from the Big Boos of prior 3D Mario games to convey it is truly something taxonomically different, or just the role they had for Big Boos to fill in SMG2. (A design that would be essentially identical to the Big Boos in SM3DL and SM3DW. Even if their function in-game was changed, I'm not sure having a behavioral change from one game to another alone are grounds for splitting, particularly in the modern era where designs of recurring enemies are more strictly unified in Super Mario games.)

I wasn't involved with prior discussions about the Boo in "Boo in a Box" from SMG, but I do not consider that their first attempt with this type of enemy because, in my opinion, it is a normal Boo that is big, and not a Big Boo, if that makes sense. There are a number of instances in SMG where the size of an enemy is changed subtly to serve a particular purpose in a level without changing anything else about the model or how it operates (such as Thwomps and Chomps [not Mini Chomps... there are literally normal Chomps that are slightly smaller than usual in SMG, but still much larger than Mini Chomps]), and those enemies are not considered separate in any paratext anywhere and probably aren't worth splitting. For "Boo in a Box", it felt like they expanded the size of the Boo model because they wanted the Power Star to be visible inside its body, not with the intention of making it the Big Boo enemy. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:59, January 12, 2024 (EST)

....except in the context of SMG, they actually decreased the size of their Big Boo model in order to fit in the box with enough room for Mario to move around in safely. You can see it at its natural size on noclip.website, it's about the size of the 3DL/3DW ones, and the ones that accompany Mega Boo here. As for Super Mario World, the label still says "Atomic Teresa," the "kyodai Teresa" is in the prose beneath and acts as a description, so it's less calling it "Giant Boo" and more saying "a giant Boo." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:15, January 12, 2024 (EST)

Gotcha, though if that's the case about SMG, then my impression is that they reduced its size so much that it doesn't really qualify as a Big Boo anymore, but that's me. More essentially:

[I'm not sure] if the enemy's behavior in SMG2 was an intentional deviation from the Big Boos of prior 3D Mario games to convey it is truly something taxonomically different, or just the role they had for Big Boos to fill in SMG2. (A design that would be essentially identical to the Big Boos in SM3DL and SM3DW. Even if their function in-game was changed, I'm not sure having a behavioral change from one game to another alone are grounds for splitting, particularly in the modern era where designs of recurring enemies are more strictly unified in Super Mario games.)

These are my greater issues. It doesn't help that the Big Boo is an enemy that goes by different names throughout its appearances in Japan (on Mario Portal, when they could have retroactively standardized names, this enemy goes by アトミックテレサ in SMW, おやかたテレサ in SM64, でかテレサ in NSMBU/SM3DW) and does not have the same behavior in all games, but we still consider them all "Big Boo" here. I'm not sure what it is about the Mega Boo in SMG2 that makes it so different where it is incorrect to consider it a Big Boo. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:40, January 12, 2024 (EST)

SM64-and-derived also seems to have been its own thing (working on that mess of an issue here), but I want to point out that all the other "big"-type enemies in SMG2 use the "Deka" identifier; this is an outlier using a descriptor implying even bigger than "Deka" size, which seems to be intentional. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:55, January 12, 2024 (EST)

That helps contextualize things, thank you. Almost a Goomba vs. Hefty Goomba vs. Big Goomba vs. Mega Goomba situation, isn't it? I hope I didn't seem argumentative - I legitimately just wanted to understand the proposal better. - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:12, January 12, 2024 (EST)

If they really wanted just a description for a Teresa that happens to be big, they would have used 巨大な, or 巨大化した like Monty Mole entry referencing Mega Mole. But no, they wrote 巨大テレサ like how most big enemies in SMB3 were named.
Besides, what about the Boo in a Box? "It's internally Teresa Chief so it can be inferred to be a counterpart to Kuribo Chief from Gateway Galaxy and it's actually bigger than seen and thus should be on Big Boo's page", that's how the logic goes. But Nintendo doesn't see it this way since they have never called it Big Boo or anything similar. Yet, Mega Boo should be split despite both Atomic Teresa and Kyodai Teresa being used as internal and final names respectfully, which is more than what can be said of Atomic Teresa and Teresa Chief, or the returning Deka enemies who are internally Kyodai in SMG2. SmokedChili (talk) 12:12, January 13, 2024 (EST)

I don't think the precise wording in the description really indicates anything either way, especially considering in the leaked prototype builds it wasn't Kyodai/Giant or anything in the ending cast role then either IIRC. As for the SMG one, I'm pretty sure the Japanese Nintendo also never split the mildly larger Boos from SMW2 (NoA did, and the Japanese materials later did for YNI), and also we have the mildly larger courtyard Boo from SM64 on here (all the more reasoning for 'Boss' Teresa to be considered its own thing), while I still believe the final wording implies bigger-than-standard-big, especially considering they went back to 'deka' for following games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:29, January 13, 2024 (EST)

I've also found "Kyodai Teresa" is used as a description in the "Super Mario Pia" Japanese guidebook in regards to "Boss Teresa" (SM64 Big Boo/SMS King Boo), with the statement ボスとして登場する巨大テレサ。『スーパーマリオサンシャイン』では大きなベロを出している。(A giant Boo who appears as a boss. In Super Mario Sunshine he has a big tongue.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:12, January 13, 2024 (EST)

You're just asserting this assumption that "Kyodai Teresa" in text instead of as a label can only be a description. Doesn't mean Kyodai Teresa in either the manual or Mario Pia isn't a name unto itself. Nintendo isn't really that consistent with size classifications, Big and Hefty are interchangable, 3D World Mega characters are about the same as Big enemies and in SMG2 Big enemies vary from not-so-Big Koopas to Big Thwomps rivaling Mega Boos. The occasional not-Mega English localizations for 巨大 also use lowercase for naming, just look at "giant Goomba" from NES Remix 2. Finally, you're implying causation by correlation by trying to lump the slightly bigger Boos with Big Boos just because they are bigger than normal even though Nintendo decided not to play along in the end and still won't. SmokedChili (talk) 14:14, January 15, 2024 (EST)

They did precisely that Yoshi's Island, and Galaxy's based on internal data. I'm not necessarily agreeing with everything else lumped here, just saying SMG2's is treated enough different from the -other large entities in the same game- to be classified differently. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:23, January 15, 2024 (EST)

Assuming NoJ, NoA and the third party from YIDS onward are the same entity. And the internal data isn't obviously enough for Nintendo to consider Boo in a Box a Big Boo. And again, if it was then Mega Boo should just be Atomic Teresa because of its internal name and thus stay on this page. SmokedChili (talk) 14:00, January 18, 2024 (EST)

I'm only using internal for lack of better option, though. In this case, the materials treat SMG2's different from a standard "big" enemy, while saying pretty much diddley-squat about SMG's, though it is still a bigger-sized Boo. Really the only time "kyodai" is used for large enemies these days are for things like Mega Mario and for Hudson's Mario Party games - consistently localizing it in each as "mega." And it seems unusual that EAD would only do it for one specific enemy if they meant it to be the standard big type. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:18, January 18, 2024 (EST)

More like you're using internal for convenience of tying it to the slight size difference that Nintendo ignored in favor labeling it just Boo so the better option would be to move it to Boo article. So is it also for convenience that when I posted about Kyodai Teresa in SMW manual, you declared it's just a description and not used as a name to make it look like Kyodai Teresa became a proper name in SMG2 first and only. That's an especially ballsy move now that scrutinizing English localizations for making up stuff has become so bad Japanese IP holders would resort to AI translations instead. Mega Boo isn't that special anyway. If it was more like Small Mario vs Mini Mario, there'd be more ground for a split, but it's more like Big Koopa vs Giant Koopa or Mini Goomba vs Small Goomba in that they overlap enough to have the two merged. SmokedChili (talk) 05:41, January 21, 2024 (EST)

SMG's is still about twice as large as a standard Boo in that game even after being downsized, though, so it is still a "big Boo" - and as I said before, Mega Boo has more functional similarities to the Boohemoth from the very next game, being of the "mobile wall" enemy type. The SMW thing, I'm more concerned with labels: the SMW Boo is explicitly labeled "Atomic Teresa," while the SMG one doesn't really get any label - and Big Boos have been labeled as "Boo" in generic situations otherwise, like the aforementioned Yoshi's Island naming history. I'm not denying that convenience factors into it, but it's based more on consistency. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:18, January 21, 2024 (EST)

That's still weak reasoning to throw Boo in a Box here when it's only called Boo/Teresa. YNI Big Boo being named Deka Teresa in Japan doesn't suddenly vindicate YI Big Boo or Boo in a Box as Deka Teresa, it's the YI Teresas and the YNI Teresa and Deka Teresa being analogous in comparing size and SMG is from different series. Atomic Teresa label doesn't mean Kyodai Teresa can't be a second name to SMW Big Boo. And for Mega Boo acting like a wall, so what? Big Goomba needs spinning to kill it, Big Koopa needs Spin Drill and Big Piranha acts like 2D Piranha. SmokedChili (talk) 14:50, January 23, 2024 (EST)

They're still treated differently by SMG2's specific naming system. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:08, January 23, 2024 (EST)

I kind of regret bringing up the large Boo from SMG because it seems to have derailed this discussion. To be clear about my stance on this, while I personally do not think the large Boo from SMG is or was intended to be the Big Boo enemy in the final release of the game, that in no way means it is invalid for others to think differently. (And this is regardless of what Nintendo themselves have published... Death of the author and all that. The Boo from Deep Dark Galaxy is objectively bigger than the normal ones, after all.) Besides, this has nothing to do with the Mega Boo from Super Mario Galaxy 2 - the actual subject of the proposal. The naming convention in Japan seems to quite deliberately indicate that this enemy is basically a "super-duper-sized" Boo and not a run-of-the-mill Big Boo, and this seems apparent in the sheer size of the enemy in-game. Without any additional details, that's good enough for me to think the distinction is valid. - Nintendo101 (talk) 17:37, January 23, 2024 (EST)

It's the same general naming system Mario series uses. Where Kyodai ovelaps with both Deka and Atomic. SmokedChili (talk) 14:00, January 24, 2024 (EST)

By the way... is there any chance that, if/after this proposal passes, the Giant Wiggler situation could be revisited? Blinker (talk) 14:04, January 24, 2024 (EST)

In NSMB, Dai and Kyodai were the standard for big, while in NSMBW-onward, Deka is, that one may need to wait. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:26, January 24, 2024 (EST)

Big Boo (character)

This talk page or section has a conflict or question that needs to be answered. Please try to help and resolve the issue by leaving a comment.

A while back, I floated the idea of merging King Boo (Super Mario Sunshine) to Big Boo here based off various evidence, namely the Japanese "Boss Teresa" name and the Super Mario Pia guidebook outright treating SM64 Big Boo and SMS King Boo as the same boss. I realize now, however, the opposite should be done: the "Boss Teresa" instances on this page (SM64, early Mario Party series, Mario Pinball Land maybe) should be split off into a "Big Boo (character)" article and merged with SMS King Boo. The English localizations had a bad habit of using the name "Big Boo" when it arguably shouldn't, and while the "Boss Teresa" is indeed a big Boo, it differs from the standard "Big Boo" enemy about as much as Mega Goomba (boss) (ie, "Boss Kuribo") differs from Big Goomba (note how the Pia description does not list appearances of Atomic/Deka Teresa as the same as them). I have a draft of the page here, but it is still a work-in-progress, namely on figuring out whether the Mario Party (1) and Mario Pinball Land sections should be there.

For the record, this "Boss Teresa" seems to be a prototype for King Boo from Luigi's Mansion, supported by the pre-release King Boo art lacking the crown, an unused text string in Double Dash calling King Boo "Boss Teresa," and the two sharing a model and basic behavioral pattern in SM64DS, with King Boo getting more advanced abilities. This is similar to what Koopa Kid was to Bowser Jr., along with being mostly abandoned not long after the final character started becoming more prolific, and even replacing their original role in a later Mario Party game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:02, January 13, 2024 (EST)

...(Now that homework is all done I can talk here again) You lost me, why exactly is merging those appearances with the SMS boss on the table again? I haven't really seen a lot of evidence beyond the name (and I am sure you have other evidence, I know what your arguments are usually like). I'm aware that Japan is stingy on name choices (they had to publish a tweet when Foreman Spike's Japanese name was changed to clarify they were the same, for one), and I see what you're trying to hunt at with "Boss Teresa is a prototype for King Boo", but where does the SMS-SM64-MP connection come from? Are you trying to get at grouping by concept or character?

Also, I can't bother with discussion skimming right now, it's 11PM and I am on my phone, but I am pretty sure it was said that Pia has a few oddities to it. If someone can clarify what was going on there I'd be glad. ^S _o ^m _e ^t _h ⁱ _n ^g _o ⁿ _e ! 23:19, January 13, 2024 (EST)

Yeah I was following this discussion too until I saw the suggestion to merge with the Super Mario Sunshine King Boo. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 23:28, January 13, 2024 (EST)

I agree that the SM64 Big Boo and SMS King Boo are suppose to be the same thing, and I support a merger. (Though I think the name "Big Boo (boss)" would be better.) — Nintendo101 (talk) 23:47, January 13, 2024 (EST)

@Somethingone & Mario Super Mario Pia guidebook explicitly labels them as the same thing, that's why. And while yes, Pia had some oddities, those were almost entirely via omission, not inclusion. @Nintendo101 Problem is, normal Big Boos also appear as bosses in Super Mario World, the Paper Mario games, and depending on the above outcome, Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:02, January 14, 2024 (EST)

I still think what happened with Boss and King was more convergent evolution (with Double Dash's Boss Teresa being renamed at the last minute, resulting in King Teresa getting an alternate design that looks like a large normal boo, which in turn probably influenced his LM design having a larger white-colored body), but I still agree with the Boss Teresa merges. Blinker (talk) 17:50, January 15, 2024 (EST)

The only other example of convergence of that type I can think of is Ukiki, which we have merged. Granted, SM64DS still presents a problem on that front... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:46, January 15, 2024 (EST)

Right, I meant more, because Double Dash's King Teresa's design was (probably) originally meant for Boss Teresa, and it stuck, the current design(s?) of King Boo is pretty much a blend between the two. But they're still officially different characters (or they were at the time of 64DS's release at least), unlike Ukiki, so it doesn't really matter. Blinker (talk) 17:48, January 18, 2024 (EST)