Talk:Big Lantern Ghost

Split Big Lantern Ghost and Mega Kantera

Template:SettledTPP Template:ProposalOutcome Ok, this is different from Raphael the Raven and Giant Raven as these one are different eachother and unlike both the Giant Raven and Raphael the Raven, they have some differences eachother. The one from Paper Mario's Japanese name is Big Kantera-Kun while the one from Yoshi's New Island's Japanese name is Mega Kantera. There are physical differences too, as the one from Paper Mario has a bandage, is roughly the same size as the mettalic Lantern Ghost, and has a different Lantern.

Proposer: FanOfYoshi (talk)
Deadline: November 21, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per proposal.
2. Waluigi Time (talk) Seems strange that these were considered the same character in the first place.
3. Doomhiker (talk) Per all.
4. 7feetunder (talk) This seems like a similar scenario to Aqua Kuribō and Goomdiver; same concept, but they come from completely different series, have a rather large time gap in between their appearances, their Japanese names are different, and only one of them has a confirmed English name.
5. Niiue (talk) Per all.
6. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per 7feetunder. With cases like Big Boo, they were common enough already to be definitively based off of one another. This seems more like the Ice Snifit case from a while ago.
7. WeirdDave13 (talk) Per all
8. bwburke94 (talk) Per all.

Oppose

1. LinkTheLefty (talk) The only substantial difference between the two is that one is a boss and the other is an enemy; other than that, the Japanese isn't a great thing to look to in this case since the names for the differently-sized enemy variants are known to be inconsistent (case in point: Big Boo).

Comments

Yes Waluigi, for once, you support a proposal i make. -- FanOfYoshi 13:00, 7 November 2018 (EST)

It would be rather clunky to leave them merged. -- FanOfYoshi 13:29, 7 November 2018 (EST)

@Link, the Super Mario Manga Adventures text translated to he as shown in the article, while the enemy is it. -- FanOfYoshi 14:36, 7 November 2018 (EST)

Gender-specific third-person pronouns aren't required in Japanese; in fact, it's fairly rare and seems to be a relatively recent development. The English translation of Paper Mario does use "he" for the Big Lantern Ghost, but it was likely referred to with usual gender-neutral language in the Japanese text. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:59, 7 November 2018 (EST)

Ah, for your question "no one seemed interested in splitting" on Flamer Guys and Pyro Guys, i'm a little bit interested. -- FanOfYoshi 15:05, 7 November 2018 (EST)

Ps: But not as much as splitting Big Lantern Ghost and Mega Kantera. -- FanOfYoshi 15:12, 7 November 2018 (EST)

And how did i forgot the TPP template, and proposer and deadline? Thanks Alex95 to have putted it. -- FanOfYoshi 13:42, 8 November 2018 (EST)

@7feetunder, i think the similarity between the two enemies you cited is quite coincidental, much like those Big Lantern Ghost. -- FanOfYoshi 02:36, 9 November 2018 (EST)

@Link, well, it's different enough from Giant Raven and Raphael the Raven. -- FanOfYoshi 09:15, 9 November 2018 (EST)

It's more different than that; in that in that case, they were in the same series and the latter-created one was clearly based off of the former. This is more like Ice Snifit. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:51, 9 November 2018 (EST)

@Schmeltwick, so i need to be fast enough to split both, right? -- FanOfYoshi 12:28, 10 November 2018 (EST)

I don't know what you mean. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:38, 10 November 2018 (EST)

See Huffin Puffin? Well, i splitted it, and i was the proposer. The Ice Snifit proposal got split by 7feetunder. -- FanOfYoshi 13:40, 10 November 2018 (EST)

Oh. Well it doesn't really matter who does it, as long as it gets done. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:41, 10 November 2018 (EST)

I don't see the problem if it's me or someone else who splits them. -- FanOfYoshi 10:22, 14 November 2018 (EST)

Regarding Flamer/Pyro Guy, I think it would be wise to at least wait until Yoshi's Crafted World possibly presents new information that might either support the earlier Ice Snifit split or vindicate keeping those and similar subjects (like the Spear Dancer/Guy from Paper Mario) together. LinkTheLefty (talk) 04:55, 19 November 2018 (EST)

I think the name "Jungle Guy" is from Paper Mario. And in the Ice Snifit proposal, i saw you said that splitting both Ice Snifits would make us splitting Flamer Guys from Pyro Guys and Jungle Guys from Spear Guys. The Spear Guys in Paper Mario's appearance are slightly different from the main series. They lack the shield and white and red feathers on the spear much like a Dancing Spear Guy. The Japanese names between a normal Spear Guy and Dancing Spear Guy are unrelated, but what's the Yoshi's New Island internal filenames for both Spear Guy and Dancing Spear Guy? I will use dolphin emulator soon. And for your informations, Clawdaddies had a different design in Yoshi's Woolly World because it makes it appear to choose another pincher when it's ready to attack Yoshi. -- FanOfYoshi 06:46, 19 November 2018 (EST)

The Paper Mario Shy Guy is called "Spear Guy" in the battle text and Player's Guide (I'm not sure how "Jungle Guy" is sticking around uncited for so long). The Spear Guy in Paper Mario: Sticker Star also doesn't have a shield and neither does the version that was going to be in Super Paper Mario, so I think the only practical difference between these Spear Guys is that the Paper Mario version becomes a normal Shy Guy when it loses its spear. I'm not entirely sure an RPG behavior difference like that is worth splitting over. And since you're interested in the filenames, I see that Yoshi's New Island has references to heyho_yari for Spear Guy and heyho_yariyari for Dancing Spear Guy, while Paper Mario: Sticker Star has e_yariheiho and Super Paper Mario has e_heiho_y. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:23, 19 November 2018 (EST)

Then the Dancing Spear Guys are clearly intended to be related to the normal Spear Guy, except for the lack of shield, feather on the spear and color. The Paper Mario Spear Guys are related to Yoshi's Island Spear Guys. -- FanOfYoshi 03:57, 20 November 2018 (EST)

As I noted on their page, I think, the PM Spear Guys are likely the SMW2 ones with some Dancing Spear Guy traits mixed in. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:39, 20 November 2018 (EST)

What are the Paper Mario Pyro Guys's internal filenames? -- FanOfYoshi 10:43, 20 November 2018 (EST)

Remerge Mega Kantera with Big Lantern Ghost, or split Big/Giant Shy Guy from Mega Guy

Template:SettledTPP Template:ProposalOutcome I think enough time has passed to readdress the split of Mega Kantera from Big Lantern Ghost. One of the key reasons for the split is because of different Japanese names; however, as mentioned, differently-sized enemy variants are known to be inconsistent (not only just in terms of naming, but also in regards to the actual size itself; for instance, compare a big enemy in the Super Mario Galaxy games). Additionally, we have incongruent treatment for Big/Giant Shy Guy, which is considered the same as Mega Guy. If Mega Kantera (メガカンテラ, Mega Kantera) remains split from Big Lantern Ghost (ビッグカンテラくん, Biggu Kantera-kun), then it's only logical to also split Big/Giant Shy Guy (ビッグヘイホー, Biggu Heihō) from Mega [Shy] Guy (メガヘイホー, Mega Heihō). However, the only set of big enemies that the wiki distinguishes from the same enemy of similar size are the enlarged boss enemies from the Yoshi's Island series, which generally have more differences than just their increased size such as appearance, moveset, etc. Furthermore, several lines of dialog refer to it as "the" or "a" Big Lantern Ghost in Paper Mario, implying that there is more than one of it, and like the giant Raven in Yoshi's New Island, only one of it shows up in the game. Therefore, the Yoshi's New Island appearance is likely a reinterpretation of the same enemy, with the Japanese renaming the "Big" enemy to a "Mega" enemy because "Big" enemies are, for the most part, established to be bosses in the Yoshi's Island series.

Proposer: LinkTheLefty (talk)
Deadline: February 4, 2020, 23:59 GMT Extended to February 11, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Remerge Mega Kantera with Big Lantern Ghost

1. LinkTheLefty (talk) My preferred option, for the reasons outlined in the proposal and per previous vote.
2. Niiue (talk) Per LTL.
3. Waluigi Time (talk) As long as it's treated as a species post-merge and not the exact same entity in both games I'm fine with this.
4. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per LTL's comments below regarding Big Wiggler, Thwomp, and Cheep.

Split Big/Giant Shy Guy from Mega Guy

1. Obsessive Mario Fan (talk) I don't think either of them are supposed to be the same. Mega Guys function differently from Big Shy Guys, and I highly doubt Yoshi's New Island was making a Paper Mario reference; since Lantern Ghosts function as just Shy Guys with lanterns, the Mega Kantera is most likely supposed to be the Lantern Ghost equivalent of a Mega Guy.
2. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per my previous Lantern Ghost proposal, AND per Obsessive Mario Fan. They probably neither made a reference to Super Mario Advance, since the large year gap, like the Aqua Goomba concept thing. Edit: What about the King Boo?
3. Scrooge200 (talk) Per OMF.
4. 7feetunder (talk) Per the proposal that split these in the first place and my vote on said proposal. Don't really have strong feelings on Big Shy Guy/Mega Guy split but the two are kinda dissimilar outside of the basic concept of being large Shy Guys and there are other instances of different large versions of enemies being split.
5. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Per all.

Comments

Clarifying the final statement in the proposal a bit; "Biggu" in Japan seems to be treated as separate from most other "big" words, like Kyodai, Okina, Dai, and Deka; "Big Piranha Plant" (Kyodai/Dai/Deka Pakkun Flower) is wholly separate from Naval Piranha (Big Pakkun), as made clear by the SSBU thing. "Biggu" is used for Yoshi bosses and a few other giant enemies within, like the Blarggs. A notable exception is Biggu Teresa, which is not the name used for Bigger Boo, but the SMRPG and (inconsistently) the MPL Big Boo. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:07, January 21, 2020 (EST)

This is true, though given the change from Biggu Heihō in Super Mario Advance to Mega Heihō in Yoshi's New Island, it seems simpler to take that the line was drawn around the time the Yoshi's Island series continued, explaining name changes and existing exceptions. Kamek apparently enlarges the "Mega" enemies in Mario Party: Star Rush too, but they're more straightforward and mostly referred to as "Kyodai" (Giant) in Japanese. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:42, January 21, 2020 (EST)

I assume that if the Lantern Ghosts did end up being re-merged, they'd be treated as a species rather than the same character reappearing, correct? -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:32, January 29, 2020 (EST)

I would say so since that's already implicit in Paper Mario despite only one making an appearance, though it was originally considered both a character and a species before splitting. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:17, January 29, 2020 (EST)

Is there an option to do nothing, in case there is opposition to do anything? -- FanOfYoshi 05:37, February 2, 2020 (EST)

Also, we've talked about the case already. I'd rather do nothing as an alternative. -- FanOfYoshi 05:38, February 2, 2020 (EST)

As previously mentioned by Doc von Schmeltwick, it's like the Ice Snifit case from the last year. -- FanOfYoshi 05:42, February 2, 2020 (EST)

I overlooked the status quo option, though I don't imagine why you'd really want that when we have inconsistent treatment of two returning "big" enemy types in the same game (and didn't you want Mega Guy split from the Advance version?). To touch on Ice Snifit for a moment: it's not the same idea at all. The enlarged enemies have had inconsistent names over the years to the point where it's far easier to group them all together if there are no other defining characteristics besides "bigger version of regular enemy" (even now, when general nomenclature seems settled as "Big" in platformers, sometimes it goes back to "Mega" in spinoffs). Also, the Big Lantern Ghost only has an English name from one game. Neither of this is applicable to Ice Snifit. Additionally, I still say there may be a wiki inconsistency with how Ice Snifit was split yet Paper Mario versions of Spear Guy and Pyro Guy remain merged, but that's a different discussion (though I'm certain now that Ice Snifit's case was the result of “transcreation” but I just didn't know a name for the practice at the time). LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:53, February 2, 2020 (EST)

I actually do, i just mean that it's in case of opposition to do anything, if there's further evidence. Unlike the consistent Big Boo, there's no evidence that the game was making a call back to previous enemies, or if it wasn't necessarily a reference. -- FanOfYoshi 02:04, February 3, 2020 (EST)

If they get split, which name will be chosen? -- FanOfYoshi 02:31, February 3, 2020 (EST)

While I much prefer Big Shy Guy, Giant Shy Guy would suffice for now until we can sort out non-Nintendo Power guide priority. To address your other point, it isn't necessary to find evidence that each game is making a deliberate reference to an earlier one when the distinguishing attribute makes it self-evident. That's why Big Thwomp's debut is Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, Big Cheep Cheep's debut is Mario Kart 64 (formerly listed as The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures), and Big Wiggler's debut is currently Mario Kart Wii, among other examples - as long as the developers obviously thought, "hey, let's take this standard enemy, but just change the size," it doesn't matter if all these appearances were consciously in their minds or not because the same result is achieved. Furthermore, Big/Giant Shy Guys from Super Mario Advance and Mega Guys from Yoshi's New Island are extremely similar to the regular-sized Shy Guys of their respective games, with the main difference being the Mega Eggdozer obtained from the latter - ignoring the fact that Yoshi wasn't playable in the former (much less that gameplay mechanic didn't exist yet), this would almost be like splitting "Big Guy" from Fat Guy because they don't provide Giant Eggs in Yoshi's Crafted World. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:26, February 3, 2020 (EST)

I don't see how the last example is comparable, as giving 6 split eggs doesn't change what the enemy is. -- FanOfYoshi 13:05, February 3, 2020 (EST)

It's completely comparable because it's an alternate side-effect of defeating the same enemy type, which is the main difference between Big/Giant Shy Guy and Mega Guy in the first place. Another example related to big enemies would be splitting certain incarnations of Big Goomba and Big Wiggler based on side-effects when attacked by the player. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:29, February 3, 2020 (EST)

@7feetunder: Mega Blooper and Super Blooper wouldn't be the best example of different versions of large enemies being split because one is a big version of a basic Blooper and the other is technically a big version of a Blooper Nanny - there is the Big Blooper from Super Paper Mario, but that one seems to be a special case since it has ten Gooper Blooper-like tentacles and is even named as such in at least one language (and has a unique King Calamari-esque name in Japanese), so it's not presently clear if it fits within the dichotomy or is its own thing. A better example would be the split of New Super Mario Bros.'s Kyodai Hanachan from Big Wiggler, which I supported at the time because a more traditional (albeit unfinished) Big Wiggler was found in the data of the same game - but given that two different versions of Mini Goomba and Big Boo also exist in New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Super Mario Galaxy 2 data, respectively, that argument admittedly no longer holds up and a counterproposal may be launched in the future. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:44, February 4, 2020 (EST)

This situation is getting out of hand. -- FanOfYoshi 05:57, February 5, 2020 (EST)

There's nothing "out of hand" with new evidence and observations changing one's point of view, if you're referring to Big Wiggler - what is "out of hand" was when the wiki used to have multiple versions of Big Piranha Plant split (a merge that Super Mario Maker would soon vindicate), and I'd urge against returning to those days (also, I'm not sure what King Boo has to do with anything - if you're referring to the Super Mario Sunshine talk page, that's something I've personally erred on the side of caution since I see it as somewhat like the Super Paper Mario Big Blooper). LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:01, February 5, 2020 (EST)

Yes, i do mean this King Boo. -- FanOfYoshi 02:36, February 6, 2020 (EST)

Big Shy Guy remains merged to Mega Guy

Talk:Big_Shy_Guy#Merge_Big_Shy_Guy_back_to_Mega_Guy, passed in December 2, 2020: linking to the proposal for future reference. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 18:11, December 12, 2020 (EST)