Talk:Impostor Bowser

Fake bowser from paper mario 64

Is Bowser??? Not a fake Bowser?

Clone

Is the Bowser Clone really related? These are magick'd enemies, whereas the other was a creation of Belome after eating Bowser. Binks 00:07, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

Fake

Can we move this to Fake Bowser because it sounds better?--Yoshidude99 11:48, 13 February 2011 (EST)

False or fake Bowser

This shold be called false Bowser or fake Bowser instead of Bowser impostor. MarioKart7player (talk) 08:26, 9 February 2015 (EST)

Why? LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:49, 9 February 2015 (EST)

Because it sounds better. MarioKart7player (talk) 11:56, 9 February 2015 (EST)

Conjecture is only a placeholder until an official name is found, so that's not a valid reason... LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:09, 9 February 2015 (EST)

Well it use to be false Bowser. MarioKart7player (talk) 12:12, 9 February 2015 (EST)

There wasn't a proper citation, so it was tagged as conjecture (from what it seems, since 2007). Looking at the older manuals shows that they don't really refer to the fake Bowsers by name, and at least one of the original guides (How to Win at Super Mario Bros.) only calls the castle bosses "KOOPA" and "BOWSER" interchangeably. The current name was used recently in a Nintendo product to refer to these guys, so I think that gives it an official source at last. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:21, 9 February 2015 (EST)

Well I think I know what you are talking about. MarioKart7player (talk) 12:25, 9 February 2015 (EST)

To be honest, Bowser Imposter was the title of the fact file, in a Smash Bros. Game, probably meaning A: the name wasn't taken from Mario canon and B: it wasn't referring to the actual name. I'd say False Bowser is more fitting as it is closer to the name of what it is commonly referred to. Both a unofficial names, so using a more common name just seems more fitting. 86.166.167.225 08:09, 10 July 2015 (EDT)

Canon or not, conjectural names are a last resort; since we accept Smash Bros. series info, the name "Bowser Impostor" applies to this article. There's the Bowser Clone from Super Mario RPG (also known as 「にせクッパ」 Fake Koopa in Japan), but that's another article. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:10, 21 July 2015 (EDT)

The actual Smash Bros. text refers to him as "fake Bowser" though, twice, with "A Bowser Imposter?" simply being the title of the fact rather than a specific name (the capitalization in this instance is for all titles, so it means nothing). It's also only referring to the blue fake at the end of The Lost Levels, NOT the other fakes, therefore the name given for the title of the page doesn't actually apply to the majority of the entries. "Fake Koopa" also seems to be the Japanese name used for both the SMRPG enemy and the blue fake Bowser. I think it might be worth looking into any possible Japanese sources for the name given in various games, particularly The Lost Levels's blue fake Bowser.

As for the other fakes, I'm not sure any official sources ever distinguish between them and the real Bowser, they're always just called Bowser. I've certainly never seen them referred to as a separate entity, despite the fact that they are not the real deal. Fizzle (talk) 11:36, 26 September 2015 (EDT)

I'd like to echo Fizzle's point about the title of this page. The Tip is SSB4 clearly calls this enemy "fake Bowser" and does not call it a "Bowser Imposter". "A Bowser Imposter?" is the title of the tip, and is purely descriptive rather than being a name. The current page title is incorrect. --SnorlaxMonster 20:18, 11 February 2016 (EST)

The current title of this article is based on the Super Smash Bros. for Wii U tip, but we can take a closer look at the English and Japanese versions.

English:

"A Bowser Impostor?!　In Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels, Mario fights a blue fake Bowser before the real thing. That blue fake is his eighth color in this game!"

Japanese:

「にせクッパ!? 『スーパーマリオブラザーズ2』には、青いクッパが登場する。倒すとその先にいつもの緑のクッパがいる。『スマブラ』では8Pカラーで青いクッパになる。」 (Fake Bowser!?　In Super Mario Bros. 2, a blue Bowser appears. Defeat him and beyond is the usual green Bowser. In Smash Bros., the 8P color is the blue-colored Bowser.)

A couple of points:

• The word "fake" does not show up more than once in the Japanese text.
• 「にせクッパ!?」 is a reference to the blue Bowser's confusing history, where he is sometimes called the same thing as a fake Bowser.
• While 「にせクッパ」 would literally mean Fake Bowser, the corresponding phrase in the official English localization is "Bowser Impostor".

Since "Bowser Impostor" looks more like a proper name than "fake Bowser" (or "Bowser's decoy" for that matter), and we don't have any other sources besides Super Smash Bros. for Wii U or NES Remix to go off of, I motion moving the title back. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:07, 27 November 2018 (EST)

I'd be fine with that. Somethingone (talk) 14:29, January 18, 2022 (EST)

The SSB4 tip is specifically referring to the blue Bowser in Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels. In 2017 (after this page was renamed based on the tip), that character was split to Bowser's Brother, making the tip entirely irrelevant to what should be used for the title of this page.

I'm not sure exactly what context NES Remix uses the term "Bowser's decoy" in, but it seems like that would be a better title, since it's actually referring to the subject of this page. Alternatively, if the Japanese name from the Nintendo website, or the Italian name from the Encyclopedia, are better sources, it should probably be clarified that they are the origin of the current page title. --SnorlaxMonster 00:51, June 29, 2024 (EDT)

New Footage of Super Mario Party Jamboree revealed that he goes by the name of "Imposter Bowser" in-game. MarioGamer119 (talk) 12:35, 29 September 2024 (EST)

Fireball death

"Hitting a Fake Bowser with fireballs reveals that they are really just common enemies disguised as their king with a spell"

Shouldn't we actually say "killing a Fake Bowser with fireballs"?

From what I recall from playing, hitting with a single fireball doesn't reveal anything, it's only when he dies (or at least, is knocked off the level, whatever you want to call it) via the fireballs that the true form is revealed.

Also shouldn't we mention how many fireballs it takes to do this? Is it always the same amount? Or does it take more balls the higher in level you go? This isn't specified or if it is I don't know where. ty (talk) 00:49, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

Blue Bowser might not be a Fake Bowser

In the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. Blue Bowser is mentioned, both in the enemies section and in the "AND MORE" section of Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels:

ENEMIES' SECTION
「クッパ(青)
青い体のクッパ。3か所に出現し、炎やハンマーで攻撃してくる。」
Blue Bowser
Bowser with a blue body. He appears in three places and attacks with fire or hammers.

AND MORE SECTION
「謎の青いクッパ!
W8-4でクツパと対決する直前、体の青いクッパと戦うことになる。クッパと同等の能力を持つが、その正体は不明。W9-3とWD-4にも登場する。」
The mystery of the blue Bowser!
Just before the confrontation with Bowser in World 8-4, a Bowser with blue body is fought. He has abilities similar to those of Bowser, but his identity is unknown. He also appears in Worlds 9-3 and D-4.

At this point should we consider him a separate character from the Fake Bowsers?--Mister Wu (talk) 20:39, 12 July 2016 (EDT)

Interesting. It doesn't even refer to him as "it," as if he was a species. It calls it "him," indicating he is his own character. It gives him an official name, Blue Bowser. I'm not completely sure he deserves his own article. I kind of think he does, but as always, I would like to wait for other users' input. Also, we may want to keep an eye this new article if it is made. I have a feeling it could be the target for lots of speculation.

Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 16:23, 16 December 2016 (EST)

It turns out that this is more interesting than it seems! On page 144 of the Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia (「スーパーマリオ全百科」)Media:SMCE pages 144 145.png the Blue Bowser is actually stated to be Bowser's younger brother and a member of the Royal Family! This is also reconfirmed on page 149Media:SMCE pages 148 149.png, while page page 150Media:SMCE pages 150 151.png at first glance seems less clear on the matter. It must be said that page 256Media:SMCE page 256.png clearly states that Nintendo collaborated in realizing the book, so the hypothesis of the unofficial bio should be ruled out. What is intriguing, however, is that since in Super Mario All-Stars Blue Bowser was missing, the substitute is refferred in the official guide as either a fake Bowser (on World 8-4) or as Bowser. This is further elaborated on page 65 of the Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia (「マリオキャラクター大事典 パーフェクト版」)Media:PEGMCE page 65.png, where the Blue Bowser is referred to as being replaced by a fake Bowser that looks more like Bowser, although the guide now suggests that the Blue Bowser looks like a fake Bowser. Since even the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. states that his identity is unknown now, it seems that this character was treated like the Koopalings were in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, where their relationship with Bowser is stated to be a mystery. I will try to see if I can get more material on the matter, although many Japanese characters picture books were released after Super Mario All-Stars.--Mister Wu (talk) 07:20, 4 February 2017 (EST)

Have you checked the Japanese Wiki page for Koopa Family? Blue Bowser is also listed there, but there's this really interesting line that says that in one game book, he is Bowser's big brother named "Bibinba". Granted, it could be the same as this translated guide, with stuff like the Mushroom King added in. No links or references to that sadly, and I found nothing about it with Google.

@Ultimate Mr. L: I think it's better keep this at the appropiate pages due to how ambiguous it is. As the Complete Encyclopedia states, Blue Bowser appears in W8-4 and WD-4 while the one in W9-3 is Bowser. Compare to Encyclopedia of 2015, where all three are Blue Bowser. Also, it isn't called "him" in the Japanese texts, that was added to make the translation look coherent. SmokedChili (talk) 08:43, 4 February 2017 (EST)

Looks like "Bibinba" is just another Korean dish, Bibimbap; of course for the identity of Blue Bowser before Super Mario All-Stars to be confirmed, other official sources would be useful. Unfortunately, the Japanese manual is nowhere to be found, so we'll probably need the game to obtain its scans. Beside that, I found the 「全スーパーマリオ大百科」, a book published in 1992 by 「勁文社」 that unfortunately I cannot know whether it is official or not, and the 「スーパーマリオ大図鑑」 that has the copyright of Nintendo on its cover, but has been published in 1994 and, as a consequence, only seems to show the Koopalings and Bowser as part of the Royal Family. Is there a way to clarify whether that 「全スーパーマリオ大百科」 might be a good source of information or not?--Mister Wu (talk) 10:32, 4 February 2017 (EST)

I've actually seen scans of The Lost Levels manual. They're the same as the SMB manual but with updated artwork. SmokedChili (talk) 11:21, 4 February 2017 (EST)

At this point I wonder how much we can rely on that Wikipedia page. As far as I know, the official Japanese guides from Nintendo started with Super Mario World, so the game book cannot be neither the official guide nor the manual. Is there another official source beside the Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia?--Mister Wu (talk) 17:35, 4 February 2017 (EST)

It ends up that on page 222 of the Complete Super Mario Great encyclopediaMedia:CSMGE page 222.png, a book by Keibunsha, Nintendo copyright is effectively there, although the involvement of the company is unknown at the moment. Anyway, page 155Media:CSMGE page 155.png still refers to the two Bowsers as brothers. At this point I think we can sum up what e know about Blue Bowser:

• He isn't strictly a fake Bowser as he doesn't become something else when defeated with fireballs
• Two guides of different editors published before Super Mario All-Stars, one of which was made by Shogakukan in collaboration with Nintendo, state that he was Bowser's brother
• Since Super Mario All-Stars and his replacement with a fake Bowser, he was considered akin to a fake Bowser, at least until Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
• However, the Encycloepdia Super Mario Bros. apparently redacted this, rather saying that his identity is unknown

At this point, I'm seriously considering a page dedicated to him. I would like to know your opinions on the matter.--Mister Wu (talk) 14:55, 21 March 2017 (EDT)

DO IT. --Glowsquid (talk) 15:26, 21 March 2017 (EDT)

That's odd. Mister Wu added Blue Bowser to the {{about}} template, but it's not showing up. Is there a maximum amount of pages that can be on the template?

Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 16:49, 24 March 2017 (EDT)

According to the source code, yes. It can only contain up to seven variables. 17:07, 24 March 2017 (EDT)

So should we replace one of the links already there? Because I think it's more important to have Blue Bowser up there than King Boo.

Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 21:11, 24 March 2017 (EDT)

I think that the King Boo link should be replaced by Blue Bowser, as it is the only link to a page that is not completely about a fake version of Bowser. --TheFlameChomp (talk) 21:22, 24 March 2017 (EDT)

I'm an idiot. When an about gets too full, we make a disambiguation page, right? I'd be happy to do it.

Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 21:24, 24 March 2017 (EDT)

Fake Fake Bowsers

There are at least two subjects that don't really belong in this article: the Tail Bowsers that first appear in Super Mario 3D Land and the "Bowser" from Yoshi Topsy-Turvy. While Tail Bowsers seem to be inspired from the original fakes since they are also transformed enemies, the addition of the Super Leaf makes them fairly different. The other subject, the one from The Tale of Bowser's Fields, turned out to be a cardboard cutout held up by the Spirit Who Loves Surprises. The inclusion of these two gives the impression that the article can be about any fake Bowser in general rather than the specific concept of the seven decoys from Super Mario Bros. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:54, 28 November 2018 (EST)

What about the equally-flat inanimate one from Superstar Saga? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:56, 28 November 2018 (EST)

I wasn't too sure about that one. Maybe it can be moved to trivia since it could refer to either the real or fake? LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:14, 28 November 2018 (EST)

I'll point out that the same area has rotodiscs, which weren't in any game featuring Fake Bowser, discounting the tenuity of World-e (which came later) and SMAS. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:21, 28 November 2018 (EST)

Neither were they in a game with the bridge/axe setup, and the thing is goofy-looking enough that it could conceivably be a cheeky charicature making the fake more obvious. Though for what it's worth, the Prima Games guide does refer to it as a "cardboard Bowser" (and the Nintendo Power version doesn't mention it despite being pictured). LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:35, 28 November 2018 (EST)

Neither the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Mario & Luigi RPG says anything on the matter. Anyway, its presence in this page is odd, as it's not clear if the cardboard wants to actually reference a fake Bowser (being an exaggerated caricature of it) or the actual Bowser. It's also odd that two cardboard Bowsers from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga and Yoshi Topsy-Turvy are mentioned, while the one from Super Mario 3D World isn't. In any case, now that Super Mario Run took back the original fake Bowsers, a split of the Tail Bowsers and cardboard Bowsers from the original fake Bowsers can make sense. If nobody is against the split, you can go on.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:55, 28 November 2018 (EST)

One thing came up: I checked the internal files of Super Mario 3D Land, and I found that the model for Tail Bowser is named "KoopaFake". What do we make of this? LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:22, 16 December 2018 (EST)

At this point we need to see the internal filenames of Super Mario Run, in theory Mario & Sonic and Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam might help as well, but it's unlikely that someone has access to the filesystem of the former, while the latter might not have labeled the Battle Card with the proper name. Furthermore, we'll need to have a look at the guides to see if they were pulling another case like the one of Batton - in Super Mario Run we definitely have the original Fake Bowsers.--Mister Wu (talk) 05:42, 17 December 2018 (EST)

Shall i make a proposal to split Fake Bowser and Tail Bowser? -- FanOfYoshi 05:46, 17 December 2018 (EST)

I was thinking it can still be split, but as a derived species (as it's pretty clearly the same idea except in "Raccoon" form due to the addition of Super Leaf). LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:00, 17 December 2018 (EST)

You can also use the Parent species part of the infobox, anyway considering how both the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario 3D Land and the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. confirm how Tail Bowsers have a different Japanese name (「しっぽクッパ」) I still agree with the splitting.--Mister Wu (talk) 16:46, 17 December 2018 (EST)

All right. If I don't see any objections, I'll go ahead and do that. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:02, 17 December 2018 (EST)

On the proposal there should also be an option to also split the cardboard bowsers into well, Cardboard Bowser. Doomhiker (talk) 17:16, 17 December 2018 (EST)

I already removed the Topsy-Turvy info since it seemed we were all in agreement on that earlier, but if it and Superstar Saga's "cardboard Bowser" were to share the same article then it would be considered part conjecture. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:30, 17 December 2018 (EST)

If Fake Bowser appears as Tail Bowser then we should have Fake Tail Bowser. B700465189a9 (talk) 17:25, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

We would go with the official North American name, that in this case is Tail Bowser.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:52, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

The cardboard Bowser from Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga isn't sentinent. The Yoshi's Topsy Turvy thing is not a Fake Bowser either. The Tail Bowser should be considered as a Swoop/Bat Mega Mole/Morty Mole, and as such, split. That says, i'm interested about what the Mario & Luigi Nintendo Official Guidebook Japanese guide says about it. -- FanOfYoshi 08:27, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

I think there should be a Fake Bowser and a Tail Bowser page. The bowsers are too different to be counted as the same. User:LuigisMansion4GameCubeFan 15:44, 17 December 2019 (CTZ)

Is there a plan to go on with the split? While the internal data points out that Tail Bowsers are derived from Fake Bowsers, they keep their own name and appearance, and with Super Mario Run reintroducing the original Fake Bowsers, I still think that a split makes sense.—Mister Wu (talk) 16:59, February 28, 2020 (EST)

I plan on making a proposal at some point. -- FanOfYoshi 11:16, March 4, 2020 (EST)

Is there a need of a proposal in the first place? The only point brought up against the split, the internal name of Tail Bowsers in Super Mario 3D Land, was brought up by LinkTheLefty (talk) who was the one who stated that they wanted to go on with the split. When everyone agrees proposals should be avoided, as proposals were created to solve disagreements, so we should rather see if someone still has some points against the split.—Mister Wu (talk) 12:56, March 4, 2020 (EST)

I'm okay with splitting as long as Tail Bowser is considered a derivative/offshoot of fake Bowser. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:44, March 5, 2020 (EST)

Like in the case of Baby Cheep and Flutter, different page doesn’t necessarily mean unrelated, they are indeed special fake Bowsers who were given a Super Leaf, so I agree with considering them as such.—Mister Wu (talk) 10:56, March 5, 2020 (EST)

Fake bowser from paper mario 64

Is Bowser??? Not a fake Bowser?
The preceding unsigned comment was added by PROPLAYEN (talk).

Different type of Fake Bowser. 19:20, August 2, 2020 (EDT)

"Fake Bowser Artwork"

It says this was reused for Super Mario Run but where has it been confirmed that it's Fake Bowser artwork? I'manumber1 (talk) 15:13, July 11, 2022 (EDT)

Good question - the game has a notebook of all the enemies, and this artwork is used there, but only for Bowser. The notebook makes no distinction between Bowser and Fake Bowsers. If that's the only time it's used in relation to the game, then the artwork may have been attributed to Fake Bowser by mistake -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 16:15, July 11, 2022 (EDT)

...Should we change it then? And if so, to what image? Maybe a screenshot from Super Mario Run? Better than nothing I guess. I'manumber1 (talk) 19:01, July 11, 2022 (EDT)

Question about Fake Bowser's identity

I heard that one of these fake Bowsers was called "Bowser's brother" somewhere at one point, but there are several of them, so this doesn't make sense. I can't remember where I heard this, and it was a long time ago. Can someone confirm this, or is my memory playing tricks on me? -- FanOfRosalina2007 (talk · edits) 12:43, December 6, 2023 (EST)

Bowser's Brother is a different subject. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:52, December 6, 2023 (EST)

Oh, now I remember! Thank you! -- FanOfRosalina2007 (talk · edits) 15:21, December 6, 2023 (EST)

Mario Party Jamboree Impostor Bowser

Would the Imposter bowser from Super Mario Party Jamboree be clasified as "Fake Bowser"? Waddle Dingus

I'm honestly not sure if Impostor Bowser deserves to be lumped in the same grouping as Fake Bowser. About the only thing they have in common is that they are created from magic. Still, I'm open to discussion from others about how they think this should be handled. BMfan08 (talk) 18:02, September 10, 2024 (EDT)

I say we wait until the game comes out. If it ends up that Kamek turned some existing enemy or creature into Bowser, the info goes here, as the beginning of the page states that fake Bowsers are creatures that have transformed into Bowser through various means. If Kamek's magic made it out of thin air, we give it its own page.Polterpup (talk) 01:49, September 12, 2024 (EDT)

Well we can now, this is because it has been confirmed that Kamek made Impostor Bowser by turning a Toady into him. Sentient freedom (talk) 20:08, October 13, 2024 (EDT)

Split Impostor Bowser from Fake Bowser

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

canceled by proposer
Impostor Bowser is a Fake Bowser, but like Tail Bowser is different enough to warrant their own article. Their name is distinct (enough), their appearance is distinct (bigger, glows purple, Magikoopa symbols), and their role is different from the traditional fake in that unlike simply being easy boss fodder, they take over the role Bowser had in previous Mario Parties. They could be considered to be completely original like how we view Bowser's Brother (which is also a fake given that it's commonly referred to as one in foreign languages), though we could also treat them as a variant of Fake Bowser like we do with Tail Bowser.

Proposer: Pizza Master (talk)
Deadline: October 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support (Split in the same vein as Bowser's Brother)

1. Pizza Master (talk) Per my proposal.
2. Hewer (talk) Per proposal, it's odd that it got put on this page instead of getting its own. It seems to be a singular character rather than a species, which makes this the better option.
3. Camwoodstock (talk) Secondary option, as we just want a split all the same.
4. Tails777 (talk) Definitely distinct enough to warrant it's own page rather than being grouped here. Per proposal.
5. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.

Support (Split as variant of Fake Bowser)

1. Pizza Master (talk) Secondary choice.
2. Camwoodstock (talk) Personally, we feel like putting Impostor Bowser in this article at all is pretty presumptuous, and we wonder if a proposal for a split like this is even going to be necessary once the game actually releases. We feel like given this is a transformation for a generic Toady, this feels more apt?
3. FanOfYoshi (talk) Secondary option.

Oppose

1. LadySophie17 (talk) Prefacing this by saying I think it is a bit too early to tell for sure what the full extent of Impostor Bowser's role in the game will be. But anyway, to start with, their Japanese names (the language of origin) are virtually identical (にせクッパNise Kuppa and ニセクッパNise Kuppa) apart from the use of hiragana/katakana. Their origins are also borderline identical (one is a minion transformed into a copy of Bowser and the other is a minion transformed by Kamek into a copy of Bowser). And finally, their functions in their respective games are similar enough (to be in place of Bowser) for me to consider them the same subject. Tail Bowser gets a pass because it has a (significant enough) visual difference, a different name and a different ability (that being the use of the Super Leaf). As for Bowser's Brother, I supported moving his page to Fake Bowser (Blue) in the past, so I wouldn't be opposed considering a merge into this page either.
2. LinkTheLefty (talk) Sometimes an Impostor Bowser is just a Bowser Impostor.
3. Nintendo101 (talk) This seems like hairsplitting. These are identical looking subjects with near-identical English names that mean the same thing. (Also, I think what LadySophie17 summerized is extremely compelling. They have nearly identical names in Japan and they are both normal enemies transformed into Bowser? Clearly the same subject, in my eyes.) I personally would not split subjects based on the mechanics in one series (the Super Mario platformers) to another (the Mario Party series), because Nintendo's developers will use preestablished subjects in different ways to facilitate gameplay. It would be like arguing the Mega Wiggler in Jamboree should be split from the normal Big Wiggler article, which I also would not support.
4. Technetium (talk) Per all.
5. Sparks (talk) Per all, especially LadySophie17.
6. Waluigi Time (talk) The differences are so small that I don't think a split would be beneficial for readers.
7. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
8. Blinker (talk) Per LadySophie17.
9. PrincessPeachFan (talk) Couldn't we just wait until the game's released?

Comments

Can we get a fuller compilation of the names in other languages? LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:15, October 14, 2024 (EDT)

Not sure what you meant by that, but in Japanese, Fake Bowser is called にせクッパNise Kuppa, Impostor Bowser is called ニセクッパNise Kuppa, Tail Bowser is called しっぽクッパShippu Kuppa, and Bowser's Brother was called クッパ・アオKuppa Ao, ニセクッパNise Kuppa and クッパ(青)Kuppa (Ao) in various old guides, while the later of which was also officially used by Nintendo in the Mario Portal. — Lady Sophie ^(T|C) 18:04, October 14, 2024 (EDT)

The "fake Bowser" name doesn't come up often enough, so that's why I wanted to know what Jamboree's other languages have to say. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:13, October 14, 2024 (EDT)

So if we're to classify "Impostor Bowser" as the same thing as "Fake Bowser", does that mean the former would count as the most recent name and we'd have to rename this page? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 20:08, October 14, 2024 (EDT)

I don't see why not. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:09, October 14, 2024 (EDT)

I'm not really sure? Like, even though Impostor Bowser is just a fake Bowser, he's always referred to as Impostor Bowser, not a / the Impostor Bowser in Jamboree. It feels like more of a specific name for this particular fake Bowser rather than all fake Bowsers, I don't know. Technetium (talk) 06:48, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Been a while since I played a new Mario Party, but I seem to recall that being how species-as-NPCs are addressed too. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:00, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

It seemingly being a specific individual is the main reason I think it should be split, like "Bowser's Brother". That and it not being explicitly related to previous instances of fake Bowsers as far as I'm aware. There's definitely more times the concept of a Bowser impersonator has appeared that we don't cover on this page, which is focused specifically on the recurring concept from the platformers. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 08:50, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

What other times has it occurred? Just so we have a list of them and all - because maybe some of those should be covered here, too. Technetium (talk) 10:06, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

I think there is a difference between a cardboard cutout sign or a mech designed to look like Bowser, and an enemy that has been magically transformed to look like Bowser. The latter is a very clear allusion to the bosses that debuted in the first Super Mario Bros. and I feel like it would be misrepresentative of this character, this concept, and what Super Mario Party Jamboree is likely trying to be in dialogue with if they were to be split from one another. I also feels like it is a departure from some of the more recent splits going on that I have generally supported: merging individuals (i.e. Boom Boom) with their species articles (i.e. Boom Boom (species)) where it is unclear where the division lies. Again, to me, this is not dissimilar from wanting to split Mega Wiggler from Big Wiggler. - Nintendo101 (talk) 10:38, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

I have a question. Couldn't we WAIT until the game's released before making proposals like this? PrincessPeachFan (talk) 08:57, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

I agree we probably should've waited, but also I think defaulting to having them split beforehand would've made more sense than immediately merging them. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:09, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

I think that Fake Bowsers are meant to surprise the player, because what they just fought is either A) identical to Bowser or B) a Tail Bowser, which could just as easily be taken as Bowser with a Super Leaf given the game already introduced Tail Goombas. Imposter Bowser is very obviously not Bowser, a meaningful difference in role. Salmancer (talk) 12:07, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

My impression is that Tail Bowser is to Fake Bowser what Tail Goomba is to Goomba - a derived variant of an enemy - which is why they have their own article. This is a different situation. Again, preestablished subjects are given different roles to facilitate gameplay ideas when integrated into other series, something Shigeru Miyamoto himself has explained. Is there anything in the mainline Super Mario platformers that indicates Fake Bowsers cannot serve the role one has in Super Mario Party Jamboree? Because to me, it does not seem particularly different from having Goombas appear as enemies in the platformers as well as having one appear as a playable character in a baseball game. The latter appearance does not make the Goomba a wholly new character that would benefit from a separate article. - Nintendo101 (talk) 12:31, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Waiting til Jamboree

@Hewer @Camwoodstock @Tails777 @FanOfYoshi @LadySophie17 @LinkTheLefty @Nintendo101 @Technetium @Sparks @Waluigi Time @Sdman213 @Blinker @PrincessPeachFan I decided to cancel this proposal since the reasoning from everyone including me has been speculative given Jamboree has yet to release. I also didn't want to set a negative precedent that every new Bowser impersonator introduced is treated as the same character. Since no decision was reached, we can open up this proposal again when the game comes out if there is still disagreement on what to do with the character. Additionally, I feel like lumping this character with Fake Bowser would violate the "Everything but the kitchen sink" principle of the good writing guide. That said, Impostor Bowser should be deleted from the Fake Bowser page for the time being which I will do. And here's the foreign names for Impostor Bowser btw,

Language	Name	Meaning	Notes
Japanese	ニセクッパ Nise Kuppa	Fake Bowser
Italian	Bowser finto	Fake Bowser
Portuguese	Bowser Impostor	Impostor Bowser
Spanish (NOA)	Bowser impostor	Impostor Bowser
Spanish (NOE)	Bowser de pega	False Bowser

-- Pizza Master 15:05, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

@Pizza Master given the previous proposal would have overlapped with the release of the game, I am not sure it was necessary to cancel the proposal.

Additionally, the "everything but the kitchen sink" principal only really works for subjects that have no business being in the same article together and are lumped together for padding. In this case, and from the prerelease material that is available to us, and from the voting trajectory of the prior proposal, I am not sure it was appropriate to remove the Bowser Impostor information from the Fake Bowser article since most people seemed to be in agreement that they are one in the same. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:01, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Well, the majority of the proposal's votes would probably already have been made before the game released and our opinions became more informed, so I think cancelling made sense. And I still feel like putting this character on the Fake Bowser article just because the concepts happen to be similar is too speculative. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:21, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

We think it's fair enough to cancel, since not every voter is going to own Mario Party Jamboree on launch, and the people that don't focus much on proposals after voting might miss that something's changed in the first place post-release. Worst case scenario, we can always just relaunch the proposal later. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 16:44, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

I mean, yeah, I agree that the proposal was a little early, but also, it comes out in like a day or so, y'know? LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:05, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Cancelling the proposal means it can be re-proposed whenever, so it's not a problem. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:59, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Given the sizable amount of information that would be put into the Fake Bowser page given my sandbox on what an Impostor Bowser page would look like, it would just make more sense to create an article for Impostor Bowser. Also, removing the Impostor Bowser info from Fake Bowser is appropriate since including that info there is not only presumptuous but highly speculative given the lack of confirmation we have on the subject since Jamboree has not yet released. Also, what Hewer said.-- Pizza Master 16:22, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Also, I'd argue that Impostor Bowser and Fake Bowser have no business being together and would simply be padding out an article when it shouldn't be. So yes, I'd say the "everything but the kitchen sink" principal is relevant and applies here.-- Pizza Master 16:28, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

What bothers me is that you cancelled a proposal and still executed changes to the Fake Bowser article geared towards your interpretation, which seems like a way of circumnavigating the potential outcome for a proposal that you worried would go in a way you do not like. And while I am not as experienced as other staff, I do not think one is allowed to do that on Super Mario Wiki. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:50, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

The proposal being cancelled means it is void, and no prior agreement on the matter had been reached, so nothing here is against the rules, nor do I think it was illogical (if anything it aligns better with the rules to not put the Impostor Bowser information on this page yet without proof it is the same subject). The current situation is a reasonable middle ground between the two options as an Impostor Bowser page still doesn't exist, and another proposal can be made to decide one way or the other. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:59, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

As I understand it, when a proposal is canceled, what that voids is any support, which more or less gives passage to oppose by default as per the status quo... LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:05, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

In this case though, there's barely a status quo. The section about Jamboree (notably an upcoming game close to launch, so it's expected for coverage of it to be a bit volatile) was added to the page mere hours before the proposal began, and there was already disagreement about the matter beforehand, as can be seen in the section above the proposal on this page. In this context, it feels weird to give more weight to a position just because it happened to be the way the page was at the moment the proposal began. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:12, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

In the discussion you are mentioning, people were saying Impostor Bowser should be considered a fake Bowser if he's revealed to be a minion transformed by magic. The opening cutscene of Jamboree clearly shows that, so I added it once I had a video link to said cutscene. Technetium (talk) 19:17, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Two of the involved users said that, the other two didn't specify (with one implying that being created from magic is not enough basis to merge the articles). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:20, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Except the majority of users who participated in the proposal by the time it was canceled preferred keeping the information on this page, so it's not like keeping it this way is completely arbitrary. Anyway, I don't see what's so speculative about having "generic enemy magically transformed to look like Bowser that fills the same role as him" on the same page as "generic enemy magically transformed to look like Bowser that fills the same role as him". Even if they're somehow not the same thing (and I find it hard to believe that the developers of Jamboree would either forget about a concept from Super Mario Bros., of all games, or be aware of the concept but make the exact same thing but somehow intend it as distinct) I see this as comparable to things like the Ice Flower appearing in Super Mario-kun over 10 years before its debut in the games. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:59, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

If we must connect it to fake Bowsers, I'd still rather treat it as an individual member of the species. Merging it with this page outright feels like the strangest solution to me. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:44, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

Wiggler. It's gone back and forth between a species and a character more than I care to count, yet we don't split it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:14, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

But the "character" Wigglers don't tend to have different names or any chance at all of potentially not having been intended to be the same species (note that fake Bowsers are a much less common and more obscure enemy in the franchise than Wigglers). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:59, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

Both subjects are: (1) common enemies that have been magically turned into Bowser; (2) serve a comparable role to the actual Bowser in their respective series; and (3) go by the same exact name in most languages (with the Japanese names - the language of origin for both subjects - only being different syllabaries and are even pronounced the same way). I don't agree that fake Bowser is as obscure as you say it is - the original Super Mario Bros. is Nintendo's most significant entry in their franchise, and the enemy has been acknowledged in modern reference material (including the Mario Portal Game Archive for The Lost Levels and the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia). Fake Bowsers were even included in Super Mario Run, so NCL clearly has not forgotten about this concept. The suggestion that Nintendo Cube may have accidentally created the same exact concept for Super Mario Party Jamboree, and even gave it the same name and made both specifically enemies that are transformed, seems overly cautious. Everything has been provided in the game that would signal that fake Bowser and Impostor Bowser are one in the same. What is so unique about this situation that distinguishes it from others where an enemy, character, or boss that debuted in the mainline Super Mario games is incorporated into a different series like Mario Party? - Nintendo101 (talk) 17:22, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

Perhaps it's just me, but I still find the fact that there is any naming difference at all to be notable, especially since, as you say, "Fake Bowser" is still acknowledged in recent material (considering this is the first game to use "Bomber Bill", a name that first appeared on Mario Portal, it would be odd for it to use a different name for Fake Bowser), plus the visual difference with the Kamek magic effects. Even if it's an extremely similar concept to fake Bowser, that doesn't make it necessarily the same subject; we have cases like Mushroom Genie and Genie of the Lamp, and Princess and Princess. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:09, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

I personally do not view it as a comparable situation, because "fake Bowser" has not been meaningfully conveyed to Western audiences as often as it has in Japan. There are not many original English sources for Super Mario Bros. or The Lost Levels that even mention this enemy, so the integration of the English name "fake Bowser" on Mario Portal is potentially because that is what we named our article - not because the translators at Nintendo of America critically thought that was the best term for the enemy. (Or at least that has always been my impression of the site, especially on pages for games like Super Mario Land 2). Fake Bowser is not even mentioned by name in any English sources for Super Mario Run despite being in the game. So it is not particularly farfetched to think NoA took the opportunity to give the subject a name better than "fake Bowser," especially since it is the only one in Jamboree . (Which is not too dissimilar to the change from Big Wiggler to Mega Wiggler... in this same game). I guess I view it innocuously, and not particularly indicative of greater categorical intent, especially with the Japanese names being only different in syllabary. Not even pronunciation. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:47, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

We don't know the translators' thought process or the reason for their decisions, so that argument is just speculative guessing. I could say that they decided to reflect the slight Japanese name difference by giving it a slightly different name in English, and the argument would be just as valid. Also, suggesting that a perfectly valid name that had been used before for the enemy was actually taken from us feels like a stretch (while Mario Portal may have based some names off of the wiki, others, such as "Fake Bowser (Blue)", definitely weren't). And my understanding of "Big" vs. "Mega" is that it switches back and forth a lot in general, so it's not comparable. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:58, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

I have touched base with fellow staff on this. For clarification, it is perfectly fine to have cancelled the proposal until the game's launch. I thought it was unnecessary, but it is not like it breaks any rules. That did not really bother me.

However, regardless of intent, the unilateral removal of all Jamboree information from the article (despite much of it being here since September) after the cancellation of a proposal that would have in-part seen the same result is discourteous and circumvents the community consensus at the time of the proposal's cancellation. I assume Pizza Master meant well, and simply wants to see the material we are responsible for covered accurately. However, this was not appropriate behavior. It undermines the reasons why we have proposals, something that is essential to maintaining a healthy communal space, and it is not to be done again. - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:20, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Updated the foreign names box, nearly every supported language is here except for Chinese (both traditional and simplified) and Russian, and all sourced to their official game pages and websites (Portuguese uses two sources because the game uses Brazilian Portuguese regardless of region). From what I can gather, nearly all languages use the same names for Impostor Bowser as with other Fake Bowsers (as in, their translation for "Fake Bowser"), only Portuguese and Latin American Spanish use "Impostor Bowser" as well, and German uses a unique name that seemingly translates to "Deception Bowser". rend (talk) (edits) 08:41, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

The three languages that use "Impostor Bowser" probably all came from NoA. A tale as old as time... — Lady Sophie ^(T|C) 19:12, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

Bowser Clone is mostly referred to as Fake Bowser in other languages too so I don't think we can rely solely on foreign names when making the decision of what to do with Impostor Bowser. Additionally, a subsection of the "Names in other languages" of the Fake Bowser page going over foreign names for Impostor Bowser specifically strongly implies that Impostor Bowser is at the very least a variant of Fake Bowser. So I believe for the sake of simplicity and brevity, Impostor Bowser should receive their own article. Should I open up a proposal tomorrow for what to do with the character, I'll add a compromise option. That compromise option will be that the Impostor Bowser info currently on the Fake Bowser page will remain there, but that an Impostor Bowser article also gets created.-- Pizza Master 19:35, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

Not sure if that's the best example, considering there are also clones for Mario, Peach, Mallow, and Geno. It's not meant to be in reference to the Fake Bowser concept. Also, we have done multiple names in other subsections in the past (such as when an enemy changes names over time, which is likely the case here) - that is not a good reason to split an article. Technetium (talk) 19:46, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

Nothing beyond our own speculation indicates that Jamboree was "meant to be in reference to the Fake Bowser concept" any more than Super Mario RPG. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:58, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

The clones in SMRPG are made by Belome eating party members. Impostor Bowser is made by transforming an existing enemy with magic. I think we can safely say that Impostor Bowser is much closer to Fake Bowser in concept. Technetium (talk) 10:06, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

The clones' (old) second set of Japanese names and most of the (new) names in other languages also suggests it's probably coincidental. Also consider: Mario Clone and Shadow Mario. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:39, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

Deciding what to do with Impostor Bowser

This talk page section contains an unresolved talk page proposal. Please try to help and resolve the issue by voting or leaving a comment.

Current time: Tuesday, November 5, 2024, 09:28 GMT

↑ Read my comments from the Waiting til Jamboree section of this page and my comments and reasoning from the prior proposal, Split Impostor Bowser from Fake Bowser. Also unlike other Fake Bowsers, Impostor Bowser doesn't revert back to being a generic enemy when defeated and is one enemy rather a species of enemies as previously mentioned by Hewer.

Proposer: Pizza Master (talk)
Deadline: October 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support (Split in the same vein as Bowser's Brother)

1. Pizza Master (talk) Per my proposal.
2. Hewer (talk) Per what I've said in the above two sections, this is a strange merge with too much guesswork involved for my liking, given the differences in name and appearance. The argument for the merge is that they're similar, which doesn't necessarily make them the same thing. Even if they did have fake Bowsers in mind when making this, it could still be a similar yet separate concept (like White Block and Grab Block, Genie of the Lamp and Mushroom Genie, or Princess and Princess), or just an individual member of the fake Bowser species.
3. Tails777 (talk) Per Hewer. While the arguments against splitting are compelling, I still feel like this is a significant enough concept to be split, especially with Hewer's comparisons to the genies and Chain-Chomps.
4. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per Hewer.

Support (Split as variant of Fake Bowser)

1. Pizza Master (talk) Secondary choice.
2. Salmancer (talk) New Name + New Appearance = usually a new thing. Also the comment from before on why this is an especially key appearance change. A Fake Bowser that can be distinguished on sight is a major change from a stock Fake Bowser. And if the Yoshi's Island bosses still being separate after all this time is anything to go by, then a name remix makes the case stronger.
3. FanOfYoshi (talk) Second option.

Compromise (Impostor Bowser info on Fake Bowser article stays there, but Impostor Bowser also receives an article)

1. Pizza Master (talk) Tertiary choice.
2. FanOfYoshi (talk) I think this is a fine compromise.

Oppose

1. LadySophie17 (talk) Reiterating my vote. To start with, their Japanese names (the language of origin) are virtually identical (にせクッパNise Kuppa and ニセクッパNise Kuppa) apart from the use of hiragana/katakana. Their origins are also borderline identical (one is a minion transformed into a copy of Bowser and the other is a minion transformed by Kamek into a copy of Bowser). And finally, their functions in their respective games are similar enough (to be in place of Bowser) for me to consider them the same subject. Tail Bowser gets a pass because it has a (significant enough) visual difference, a different name and a different ability (that being the use of the Super Leaf).
2. Technetium (talk) Per LadySophie17. As for the point made about Impostor Bowser not reverting back to a Toady upon defeat, I feel like that's more due to gameplay differences between the 2D platformers and Mario Party. It's almost like asking why Mario doesn't become Small Mario when he gets hit in an RPG. What matters here is that Impostor Bowser takes the role Bowser usually plays in Mario Party games, just as other Fake Bowsers take the role Bowser usually plays in 2D platformers.
3. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per all. I see no reason to split fake Bowser B from fake Bowser A when everything else is the same. I doubt the big Rocky Wrench in this game was a reference to them being resizable in the Maker games, yet we have them on the same page just fine. (Also, fake Bowsers in SMB didn't "revert to their true form on defeat," they only reverted if defeated with fireballs; using the axe, you'd never know.)
4. Sparks (talk) Per all, especially LadySophie17.
5. Waluigi Time (talk) Per last time and the above discussion.
6. LinkTheLefty (talk) All's I'm gonna add is that there was a discussion that involved another name - "Bowser Impostor". I think if that was the still the article title, things would be more straightforward. Anyway don't cancel again plz.
7. Nintendo101 (talk) per LadySophie17 and my comments in prior discussions on this page. Super Mario Party Jamboree has provided every signal that Imposter Bowser and fake Bowser are the same entity, and very likely have the same conceptual origin. It is overly cautious to suggest these are independent characters, and I also recommend moving the article's name to "Imposter Bowser."
8. Camwoodstock (talk) Now that the game's actually out and the similarities are far more apparent, sure, may as well.
9. PrincessPeachFan (talk): OY.
10. ExoRosalina (talk) Per all, but why is this extremely similar with fake and the impostor? They have a same entity or origin.

Comments

Doesn't re-proposing this so soon go against rule 7? LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:30, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

No, because the prior proposal was cancelled, so it didn't make a decision and this isn't technically overturning anything. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:07, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

I'm not sure I would consider Fake Bowsers to be a "species" in the typical sense, considering they're just transformations. Technetium (talk) 12:24, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

Doesn't really change the argument, the point is that there are evidently multiple "fake Bowser" individuals. Besides, this page uses the species infobox, classifies it as a variant of Bowser's species, and classifies Tail Bowser as a further variant. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:29, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

I'm also not sure what the difference between the second support option and the compromise option is. Take Super Blooper, for instance. We still briefly discuss it on the main Big Blooper page and then link to the main article. The only thing that would change is that we'd remove the image of Impostor Bowser and the names in other languages subsection for it - we could keep the info we already have on the page as there isn't much there as is. So if we consider Impostor Bowser to be a specific Fake Bowser, there's not really a difference between the two voting options. Technetium (talk) 12:31, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

I don't understand the second and third options here. The second option implies we'd treat Impostor Bowser as a species, which doesn't make sense since it's one individual, and the third option sounds like pointlessly repeating the exact same information on multiple pages. I assume that Impostor Bowser would still be mentioned on the Fake Bowser page if it was split by the first option, just without fully covering it. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:35, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty: I'd probably still support the split either way, but didn't Mario Portal have "Fake Bowser" more recently? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:45, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

Didn't Nintendo101 already address that above? LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:02, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

I mean, even if it did come from the wiki (which I think is a stretch), why would that invalidate it? It's a valid English name anyway, not one we made up, and it was the one they decided to use, regardless of whether the wiki was part of that decision (which we have no way of knowing if it was). They obviously weren't just blindly copying the wiki or we wouldn't have Bomber Bill. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:13, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

Tail Bowser does not have different abilities from Bowser. The Tail is cosmetic to go with the game's visual theme, Bowser can swing his normal tail as an attack even in Super Mario 3D Land. It's just appearance and power-up involvement. I might be splitting hairs or misreading "ability" from Sophie's vote. Salmancer (talk) 13:47, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

Admittedly, I have forgotten Bowser also does the tail swing normally. But still, given the explicit involvement of the Super Leaf in the transformation, and the Japanese name following the same format as other power up forms, I'd say the page deserves to remain split, at least in spirit. — Lady Sophie ^(T|C) 15:16, October 18, 2024 (EDT)

Tail Goomba (which has a page) is to Goomba what Tail Bowser is to Fake Bowser. It is a variant of a boss and it is not unreasonable for it to have its own page. I personally don't think it's the same situation. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:35, October 18, 2024 (EDT)

Why do we need to do this? Impostor Bowser is literally the same guy and trying to say he's an individual because of a different Japanese name is not going to change anything. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 08:52, October 18, 2024 (EDT)