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Why are these not simply Banzai Bills? Phoenix Rider 02:55, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Because, they are red and go up to target mario sometimes. GalladeBack.pngGalladeBladesGallade2.png

Is this name official? Vent (talk) 16:38, 21 September 2013 (EDT)

Merge this page with Banzai Bill or Bull's-Eye BillEdit

We know that the Prima guide for New Super Mario Bros. Wii used the term "King Bill" for any larger subspecies of Bullet Bill; this includes Banzai Bill and its Mario-seeking variant, and King Bills (who received the same name officially 5 years and a half after the release of the game). This term/name ISN'T the official name for the enemy.

I guess that we have to merge the page (or start a proposal) with one of the two pages on the title until they find an official name. Nonetheless, I think they won't reappear since it's currently the only New Super Mario Bros. Wii-debuting enemy that doesn't reappear, and it has already passed 6 years after the release of the game. --James Blonde (talk) 18:17, 23 December 2015 (EST)

WrongEdit

The source was wrong. I have the Prima guide and it does not call them King Bills, it just calls them Banzai Bills. In fact the first mention of a King Bill in that guide is referred to as a Banzai Bill though after that it calls them by their real name so could we remove the source seeing as it's false. The RPG Gamer (talk) (edits)   23:18, 31 October 2016 (EDT)

This is a screenshot of the New Super Mario Bros. Wii eGuide. Seems pretty clear-cut to me. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 23:28, 31 October 2016 (EDT)

Article TitleEdit

Why is this article titled "King Bill (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)"? King Bills (the real ones) also first appear in this game! -YoshiFlutterJump (talk) 13:46, 22 April 2017 (EDT)

This King Bill appears to be erroneously named. The "real King Bill" looks and behaves vastly different than this one. King Bill's name is confirmed in Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition and appears in more than one game, but for this one, all we have to go on is a Prima guide.    13:55, 22 April 2017 (EDT)

Rename this pageEdit

  This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

do not rename 3-1-12
This page should be renamed. This name is not official and only comes from a Prima guide. I even checked MarioWiki:Naming and it said that Prima guides are only valid sources if it was released before Super Mario Galaxy. This game was released two years later. And, even though we do have articles with unofficial names, it's too confusing having two articles titled "King Bill". So I propose we rename this article to Homing Banzai Bill under the {{conjecture}} template. If you think the article should be moved to a different name, please specify in the designated section.

Proposer: YoshiFlutterJump (talk)
Deadline: July 15, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Rename to Homing Banzai BillEdit

  1. YoshiFlutterJump (talk) See my reasoning above. I think this is the best option, as other names like "Bulls-Eye Banzai Bill", "Giant Bulls-Eye Bill", "Banzai Bulls-Eye Bill", and "Flashing Banzai Bill" are all really silly, and, like I said above, this article should not stay "King Bill".
  2. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Homing Banzai Bill sounds good to me. I am for the change because the name doesn't make sense, as King Bill originally appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Despite appearing in other games, this doesn't make sense.
  3. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) I believe that Prima made a mistake identifying this Bill. Homing Banzai Bill has a more intuitive name. Banzai Bill are the same size as this red big Bullet Bill. King Bills are way bigger. Red varieties home-in on the player.

Move to other nameEdit

  1. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) See Bull's-Eye Bill for better naming schemes. Maybe Missile Banzai Bill or Bull's-zai Bill for a couple of creative names.

Leave as isEdit

  1. Time Turner (talk) The policy's misleading. I don't know why it says that the guides are only valid post-SMG, but Prima guides (also BradyGames and Versus, should they come up) are perfectly valid so long as they've been officially licensed by Nintendo. There are plenty of guides that were released before Super Mario Galaxy that are currently being used as valid sources (see: Super Mario Sunshine, Luigi's Mansion. It is correct to say that Prima guides do not take precedence over Nintendo Power, the Player's Guides, and the game itself, barring exceptions where the Prima name actually prevents confusions, but without any other official sources, Prima is perfectly valid as the top source.
  2. TheHelper1000 (talk) Same reason as Time Turner, there's no other source for a different name.
  3. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per Time Turner.
  4. Yoshi the SSM (talk) This can be changed to King Bill (Red) or King Bill (Flashing) after this proposal, but this proposal is about changing it from King Bill to something else. So, the "leave as is" option is the one that I have to choose, as it is the only option that keeps King Bill. Any information officially release will override whatever name we choose if it's wrong, and there is a low chance to choose the right one. However, I also like the name "Homing Banzai Bill". This is why I am voting for two options.
  5. Alex95 (talk) Per Time Turner.
  6. SuperYoshiBros (talk) Per Time Turner.
  7. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) Per Time Turner (talk)
  8. Owencrazyboy9 (talk) Per Time Turner. The point he makes is really good and the policy hasn't been changed yet to allow any Prima game guides instead of just those released before Super Mario Galaxy.
  9. Niiue (talk) Changing vote, per Time Turner and the comments.
  10. Ultimate Mr. L (talk) As much as I think Prima is incorrect, policy states it is a valid source and it would therefore be irresponsible for me to vote otherwise no matter how much I would love to see an enemy named Bulls-zai Bill. However, I do think the title should be changed, both because it's a mouthful and because both King Bill variants appear first appear in NSMBW. I'm thinking King Bill (Homing).
  11. Luigi 64DD (talk) Per all, especially Ultimate Mr. L. I don't think giving it another identifier is necessary until it returns in another game.
  12. Baby Luigi (talk) Per all, even if I actually disagree with how the official Bill is named.

CommentsEdit

@Time Turner: Post-SMG guides are not valid because they were made after the Nintendo Power Player's Guides were discontinued. -YFJ (talk · edits)

I'm well aware of the circumstances, but there's plenty of precedence that directly contradicts what you're saying. The Prima guides are officially licensed and have been constantly used for citations when other sources failed to provide anything. I do not see why that should be ignored. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 01:08, 1 July 2017 (EDT)
Couldn't the naming policy be updated to reflect any Prima game guide instead of those before Super Mario Galaxy? – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 01:11, 1 July 2017 (EDT)
A revision was suggested on the forums, but for whatever reason it wasn't put into effect. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 01:17, 1 July 2017 (EDT)
Regardless of the validity of "King Bill" as a name for this thing, "(New Super Mario Bros. Wii)" is a useless identifier for this thing since the actual King Bill also debuted in NSMBWii.    01:21, 1 July 2017 (EDT)
That's a valid point. Would "King Bill (red)" be acceptable? It wouldn't my be the first time we used colours as identifiers. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 01:25, 1 July 2017 (EDT)
It's not red. It flashes red and black. -YFJ (talk · edits)

@TheHelper: In the course of main articles, one would not use the full title of the article within the body, only "King Bill". The full title is only necessary for links, and it can easily be hidden. Considering how many articles have some sort of identifier attached to them, that logic just doesn't make sense, at least not to justify moving an article from a sourced name to an unsourced name. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 01:33, 1 July 2017 (EDT)

Okay, I'm just saying that when I'm looking at this article's main title it simply looks odd. Although I wouldn't mind it being "King Bill (Red)" as you said earlier. TheHelper1000 (talk) 1:49, 1 July 2017 (EDT)
Again, there are plenty of other articles that have identifiers, and we're not about to move them to unofficial names just because they seem unwieldy. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 01:59, 1 July 2017 (EDT)

"If a source is not present, keep moving down the list until you have found the right way to name the article, and only create a conjectural title as a last resort." The Prima guide is pretty much the closest thing we have for an official source (it would fall under number 4, as it's officially licensed by Nintendo), so I don't see why this needs to be moved to a conjectural title. I agree with 7feetunder that it could use a different identifier, though.   Mario JC 04:20, 1 July 2017 (EDT)

You guys don't get it, do you? Let me clear up my proposal:

  • We can't have two King Bills because it's too confusing.
  • This name is unofficial and, in a way, conjectural.
  • Homing Banzai Bill makes a lot more sense than the current title or any other name.
  • We can't call it King Bill (red) because it's not red.

So that's my proposal in a nutshell. Feel free to switch to the support side. Actually, I'd prefer it if you switched sides. YFJ (talk · edits)

  • We can have two King Bills if they have the same name
  • The name is from an official source.
  • Homing Banzai Bill is unofficial, while King Bill is official.
  • We can call it King Bill (flashing) like Yoshi the SSM (talk) suggested.
    Shy Guy on Wheels (T|C|S) 11:03, 1 July 2017 (EDT)
It's exactly as Koopa Bro says. We have two articles titled Chap from the same game (1, 2), three articles titled Hammer Bro (1, 2, 3), six articles titled Beetle (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6), seven articles titled Ghost (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7), and plenty of other examples. Saying that we can't have two articles with the same time is completely false and clearly proven false by the countless examples on the website. Saying that the name is unofficial is also completely false and again clearly proven false by examples on the wiki, as I have covered above. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 11:19, 1 July 2017 (EDT)
And another example are the two Piranha Plant pages. Piranha Plant and Piranha Plant (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door). They look very much alike but it was a small detail that made us split the two. And also, these aren't homing Bills, they don't chase the player. YoshiGo99  11:25, 1 July 2017 (EDT)
Did you guys not see the World 9 page for this game? That is what I mean by "too confusing". I'm pretty sure that's not the only page like this. YFJ (talk · edits)
That really doesn't resolve any of the other issues that we brought up, namely that the name is definitely official and that it is definitely possible to have two articles of the same name. For the articles in which both King Bills appear, other identifiers can be used, like "the large King Bill" or "the homing King Bill" or whatever else is appropriate. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 18:02, 1 July 2017 (EDT)
The fact of the matter is that King Bill is the official name for both enemies. Both names come from Prima, but the bigger one is more frequent, and is later "officialized" in Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition, so it doesn't need an identifier. According to MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming, this article should remain, as it is an official-as-official-gets name.    18:08, 1 July 2017 (EDT)

Prima was just using "King Bill" to refer to any large Bullet Bill, including King Bills, Banzai Bills, and this. Prima was most likely using it as a placeholder. The current article title is as conjectural as any name because the source is invalid (see proposal). YFJ (talk · edits)

If you feel like getting technical, Prima guides after Super Mario Galaxy are actually official, as they entered a partnership deal with Nintendo in 2007, after Nintendo Power stopped making guides. The name is legit, it has a reference, as far as I can tell, there's nothing conjectural about this.
Additionally, MarioWiki:Naming is not saying anything after 2007 is unofficial. The point is in numbered order, from most valid to least. Everything there is official. The Nintendo Power point even contradicts your statements, saying "For games released after 2007, this source can no longer be used since this source is currently discontinued.", so Prima is the most valid source for names in terms of guides from then on.    01:38, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

Change this page's identifierEdit

  This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

canceled by the administrators
In violation of rule #7: The previous proposal's outcome of "don't rename" is less than four weeks old, and changing the page's identifier would still be renaming the article and therefore overturning said outcome.
It can be re-proposed after August 12, 2017, 23:59 GMT.

My proposal a couple weeks ago received serious opposition, but most voters requested an identifier change. This proposal is to change the identifier. Some possible identifiers included in this proposal are (homing), (flashing), (red), (Prima), and (World 9-3). There is also an option for other names.
(homing): It homes in on Mario.
(flashing): It flashes red and black.
(red): Similar reason to (flashing).
(Prima): It comes from a Prima guide.
(World 9-3): It comes from World 9-3 in its game.
(New Super Mario Bros. Wii): It comes from this game (although so did the other King Bill).
Proposer: YoshiFlutterJump (talk)
Deadline: July 14, 2017, 23:59:59 GMT

Change to (homing)Edit

  1. YoshiFlutterJump (talk) I like this option the best, but (flashing) will also do. Per my proposal.
  2. Alex95 (talk) I'll vote for this. Aside from the size, this is really the only difference between the two.
  3. Yoshi the SSM (talk) It does home in to the player, but not as much as regular Bull's-Eye Bills. But, I still like it. This is my second preferred choice.
  4. Niiue (talk) Per all.
  5. Skuchi037 (talk) It does home in on the player, and as this marks one of the few times in which two things with the SAME name appear in the SAME game, we shouldn't just identify as (New Super Mario Bros Wii), and I think we should go with (homing), because again, it homes on the player. But hey, anyone realize that TWO things with the SAME name appear in the SAME game? That's kind of interesting and sweet, if you ask me.
  6. Supermariofan67 (talk) Per all.

Change to (flashing)Edit

  1. YoshiFlutterJump (talk) I prefer the previous option, but this will do as well. Per my proposal.

Change to (red)Edit

  1. YoshiFlutterJump (talk) It may not be solid red, but I guess this'll do because it flashes red. Per my proposal.
  2. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Considering Bull's-Eye Bills in New Super Mario Bros. Wii also flash, I say (red) should do the trick. This is my preferred choice.

Change to (Prima)Edit

Change to (World 9-3)Edit

  1. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Considering regular King Bills appeared in World 9-8 of the game, saying this is from World 9-3 would mean that it came from there. The only problem with this is that it is not the best kind of identifier. Therefore, it is my third and final preferred choice.

Change to other identifierEdit

  1. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) My thoughts on the previous proposal still stand here. These aren't a King Bill variant. Identifiers make things harder to search and link to. No identifier. These things should be called whatever I stated in the last proposal. These are a Banzai Bill variant, and this makes me question Prima as a reliable source.
  2. LinkTheLefty (talk) My suggestion goes to King Bill (Banzai Bill); I feel like this would reasonably be the most descriptive title, otherwise it sounds like it's a derivative of the other King Bill.
  3. Baby Luigi (talk) Per LinkTheLefty

Leave as (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)Edit

  1. Alex95 (talk) I'd be fine with keeping it the same.

CommentsEdit

I'd like to point out neither it nor Missile/Bullseye Bills flash in that game, but stay a solid red. Haven't actually flashed outside of SMB3's remakes. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:47, 31 July 2017

I can't check this myself, because apparently I'm no longer that far in the game, but can someone actually replay 9-3 and see what the King Bills do? The article says they home, but they also travel horizontally, so I'm confused what exactly they do.    17:54, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
They travel horizontally, but move up and down to meet Mario. I remember because it was so distinct from the regular-sized one. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2017
Oh, yeah, I remember that now. I'll vote for homing then, but I wouldn't mind keeping it the same, either.    18:00, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
Here's a video, for easy reference. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 18:02, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
Just tested it now, and they do actually flash. -- TheFlameChomp (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
Hell, they share the same model file as the regular Banzai Bill, the flashing isn't even a texture but a different palette.  Ray Trace(T|C) 18:18, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

I am placing my thoughts on the other sections here. (flashing): there is no page called "Flashing Bullet Bill". Not good for it to be this way. (Prima): not good. The Prima calls all big Bullet Bills King Bills. No way this can be good. (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)/keeping it the same: Considering King Bill also appeared in this game, it is not a good identifier. Others: I can't think of a good identifier other than the ones listed.   Yoshi the SSM (talk) 18:25, 31 July 2017 (EDT) edit: Banzai Bill: Like I said, considering the Prima guide call all big Bullet Bills (which of course includes Banzai Bills) King Bills, this would have a problem being identified as that. Though, it would at least be different from regular King Bills, but I am not going to support it.   Yoshi the SSM (talk) 19:06, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

@Wildgoosespeeder's change to another identifier vote: That was ended on the 15th of July. That means that it can't be changed until the 12th of August. So, trying to have no identifier, but having a different name, will not go into effect until the date mentioned. At least, that is what I am assuming from "No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old." I assuming that the proposal initially didn't plan for this outcome, but something happen and cause it to change to contradict a recent proposal; and that wouldn't work, because that would be a violation of the rule.   Yoshi the SSM (talk) 18:45, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

In that case, this entire proposal could be violating rule #7. It was decided to not rename the article. Not enough time has passed. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 00:58, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
What rule 7 means by that is, "No proposal to overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks old can be made," since rule 11 also asks proposals to be redone four weeks after the deadline ("...the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks"). This proposal is still technically an attempt to overturn the first proposal's outcome ("moving to another name" was even one of the first proposal's voting options), so yes, this would be violating rule 7.   Mario JC 06:44, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
Yes, I agree. I didn't think about that when I voted. -- TheFlameChomp (talk) 06:53, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
The previous proposer (above) is one to get it away from King Bill, which failed. This is still keeping King Bill, but having a different identifier. So, does it really violate rule 7 if it keeps the decision of the last proposal, but changes a part of the decision?   Yoshi the SSM (talk) 10:05, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
I think it does violate rule 7, as this proposal would change part of the name, while the other proposal chose specifically to leave the title as is. -- TheFlameChomp (talk) 12:03, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
Whoa, whoa, whoa. My proposal violates a rule? I'm not proposing for the name to be changed but the identifier. Honestly, I'd rather change the name. But if it is a violation, is it too late to close the proposal? YFJ (talk · edits) 13:42, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
Since Mario jc (talk) replied to my concern and he says it might be, it is possible that the sysops are reviewing this proposal. We just have to wait and see what the final word is, if that is what I think they are doing. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 14:51, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
Well, this does end on the 14th, so it would be 4 weeks old by the time it passes. Usually proposals aren't created in the first four weeks of another proposal with a idea to overturn it because of rule 7. This may be the first that actually was written during the time another was new, but ends when the other is old. This should be decided by admins. Also, this has one side that has at least 5 votes, so no, it can't be canceled by the proposer (TPP rule 4). But, it can be asked to be deleted (regular rule 14).   Yoshi the SSM (talk) 15:12, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Change this page's identifierEdit

  This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

change to "banzai bill" 7-0-0-0-9-0
All right, guys, this again. You see, this identifier is just...not good. TWO King Bills appear in this game, and if we just name one of them (New Super Mario Bros. Wii), that's going to cause confusion, and it just screams lazy. The thing is, the red King Bill's name comes from a Prima guide and flashes red and black and homes in on the Mario Bros. I don't think leaving the identifier as it is is a good idea. Anyway, same as the previous proposal.
(homing): It homes in on Mario.
(flashing): It flashes red and black.
(red): Similar reason to (flashing).
(Prima): It comes from a Prima guide.
(World 9-3): It comes from World 9-3 in its game.
(Banzai Bill): It's a Banzai Bill.
(New Super Mario Bros. Wii): It comes from this game (although so did the other King Bill).
Proposer: Skuchi037 (talk) (banned)
Deadline: September 4, 2017, 23:59:59 GMT

Change to (homing)Edit

  1. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Per above proposal (mostly, but not exclusively, my vote) that was canceled by admins.
  2. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per proposal
  3. Alex95 (talk) - Per my original vote.
  4. Ultimate Mr. L (talk) Per all.
  5. Chocolate Mario (talk) I know that I'm in the minority, but this option describes the enemy pretty well and isn't as confusing as King Bill (Banzai Bill), which makes it sound like the article is describing two enemies at once!
  6. Camwood777 (talk) - I think this one makes the most sense. It homes in, but is not directly a Banzai Bill, so...
  7. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per all.

Change to (flashing)Edit

Change to (Prima)Edit

Change to (World 9-3)Edit

Change to (Banzai Bill)Edit

  1. LinkTheLefty (talk) My suggestion goes to King Bill (Banzai Bill); I feel like this would reasonably be the most descriptive title, otherwise it sounds like it's a derivative of the other King Bill. (Take 2.)
  2. TheFlameChomp (talk) I still support King Bill (Banzai Bill) as a second choice.
  3. Alex95 (talk) - I think King Bill (Bull's-Eye Bill) could also work, but I'm for the Banzai Bill identifier, too.
  4. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Upon my will, I shall cast my vote for King Bill (Banzai Bill)...or something like that. Per all.
  5. Owencrazyboy9 (talk) LinkTheLefty brings up a good point; it's really descriptive, although Alex95's Bullseye Bill title also kind of works, too. Per all.
  6. Ultimate Mr. L (talk) Per all.
  7. Baby Luigi (talk) Per all.
  8. DarkBowser777 (talk) Though it sounds weird, I think this is the best identifier. Per all.
  9. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per all.

Leave as (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)Edit

CommentsEdit

Sorry for coming this late, but I realized that the Japanese name of this enemy was not discovered yet, which means that the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. in the section dedicated to the enemies of New Super Mario Bros. Wii can be a precious source for an appropriate English name:

  • Bullet Bills are known in the game as 「キラー」, Killer (page 144)
  • Bull's-Eye Bills are known as 「サーチキラー」, Search Killer (page 145)
  • King Bills are known as 「キングキラー」, King Killer (page 144)
  • Banzai Bills are known as 「マグナムキラー」, Magnum Killer (page 146)
  • Finally, this one is known as 「マグナムサーチキラー」, Magnum Search Killer (page 146)

Therefore, an appropriate name according to the Japanese names used in the game could be Banzai Bull's-Eye Bill.--Mister Wu (talk) 15:02, 27 August 2017 (EDT)

Well, since the English name we have is "King Bill", we couldn't call it anything else, which is why we have to rely on the identifiers. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 15:22, 27 August 2017 (EDT)
We could always call it Banzai Bull's-Eye Bill and tag it with {{another language}}. At the moment, the English name is confusing, so I'm fine with giving it the Japanese name.    15:34, 27 August 2017 (EDT)
And doing that would break policy, since English names always take priority over others. Besides, at that point, it wouldn't be "Banzai Bull's-Eye Bill", it'd be "Magnum Search Killer" (or perhaps "Magunamu Sāchi Kirā", though I believe all of these words are transliterations of the original English words). Hello, I'm Time Turner. 15:43, 27 August 2017 (EDT)
There's been proposals that's been exceptions to policy before (remember our Dark Land debacle?). If "Magnum Search Killer" is one of the options, I'd support it.    15:54, 27 August 2017 (EDT)
Yes, but that's only applicable if there's actually a proposal, and it's already too late to make changes to this one. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 16:06, 27 August 2017 (EDT)

SMM2 DirectEdit

In the SMM2 Nintendo Direct here, they are referred to as "the red ones" within "Banzai Bills." Therefore, we may consider changing the page to "Banzai Bill (red)." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:04, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

Are the Super Mario Maker 2 elements going to be given a proper name somewhere in the game or related material? If so, we can wait to see the actual name there, otherwise if they are not going to be named anywhere else, in my opinion that colloquial name is already better than the currently deceiving one.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:35, May 16, 2019 (EDT)
I'm not sure wether they'll use "King Bill", or the other official name "Bull'-Eye Banzai", which was used in the Encyclopedia. --  FanOfYoshi 10:51, May 16, 2019 (EDT)
If they do use Bull's-Eye Banzai, that'll "officialize" it just like Piranha Pod (note that Micro Piranha Plant was not given the same treatment). LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:33, May 16, 2019 (EDT)
It IS official, just being made by an incompetent. --  FanOfYoshi 11:37, May 16, 2019 (EDT)
Wasn't Bulls-Eye Banzai one of the names that wasn't copied from the wiki? Niiue - Who has lost his tail? 11:57, May 16, 2019 (EDT)
Yes, but again, so was Micro Piranha Plant, which soon became Small Piranha. It's best to wait for the actual release. (And "officialize" is for lack of better word, hence in quotes.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:00, May 16, 2019 (EDT)
If anything, if NOA followed the naming conventions they followed until now, the official name would be Bull's Eye Banzai Bill, so I'd hardly be surprised if this correction was made in the name used in the game, or in material related to the game.--Mister Wu (talk) 15:05, May 16, 2019 (EDT)
Yeah, Bull's-Eye Banzai is more concise than King Bill. Really. --  FanOfYoshi 14:47, May 17, 2019 (EDT)
I agree on waiting for release, because in a brief shot when they show two players making a course together in the Direct, they briefly show names of Goombas, Burners and Bill Blasters at the 5:40-ish mark. Who knows? The "King Bills" could be called something along the lines of "Bull's-Eye Banzai" in either American or British English, but we'll have to wait a month from now and see what happens. – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 13:17, May 21, 2019 (EDT)
For future reference, the term "King Bill" was used to refer to any type of big Bullet Bill in the Prima guide, proving Prima's incompetence in this one. Per the source priority exception, it should be moved to Bull's-Eye Banzai if it is given this name in Super Mario Maker 2. It should also be noted that the Bull's-Eye Bill's Bill Blaster wasn't differenced in Super Mario Maker. But, if the Bull's-Eye Banzai Bill (along with the aforementioned Bull's-Eye Bill's Bill Blaster are differenced from the Banzai Bill and the Bill Blaster, we wouldn't need to rename it to Magnum Search Killer per source priority exception. --  FanOfYoshi 04:41, May 22, 2019 (EDT)
Note that a new name for the article requires overturning the previous proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:01, May 22, 2019 (EDT)
Are you mainly referring to the source priority exception? Because, even though the encyclopedia had new names that did not came from any fan-source, that doesn't make Zack Davidson competent whatsoever. --  FanOfYoshi 02:04, May 23, 2019 (EDT)
But if it is given a new name in the game, would that require a proposal as well? Because when we renamed it to "Bull's-Eye Banzai" it didn't require a proposal to overturn, either the source priority exception, or the above ones. --  FanOfYoshi 02:09, May 23, 2019 (EDT)
I suppose not given that example, but we still don't know for sure what the name will be in Super Mario Maker 2. If you're suggesting to make a source priority exception, that by itself requires overturning with another proposal because there have been several proposals on the name and identifier. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:50, May 23, 2019 (EDT)

Footage of SMM2 confirms it: it's Bull's-Eye Banzai.   Mario JC 20:55, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

Fine by me. Should we bend the rules and change it now, since the current one is misleading? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:24, May 28, 2019 (EDT)
I'm fine with moving any of the newly renamed SMM2 objects now.   Mario JC 21:30, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

Treatment of the "King Bill" nameEdit

I am 100% opposed to giving "King Bill" the "old name" treatment for a multiple reasons, not the least of which being that "King Bill" isn't an "old name" but a wrong name. It does not refer to Bulls-Eye Banzais, Prima just used it as a catch all name for any large Bullet Bill variant. It's not the same thing as an actual King Bill and we know that. Continuing to use "King Bill" for Bulls-Eye Banzais is confusing as fuck; people reading the World 9-3 article cannot tell that King Bill is referring to these and not those other King Bills from the same game unless they mouse over the links. Why be confusing instead of clear? Just because of some stupid naming standard we established a while ago? Look, I don't oppose our current "old names" policy. Hell, I was one of the voters who helped establish it. But I was in favor of it because of things like "Goomba King" vs. "Goomboss." I wanted things to be clearer for people who played Paper Mario but not the other two games he appears in, and other scenarios like that. If I had known that this would be abused in the name of sucking up to shitty guide names, I wouldn't have been so quick to vouch for it. That said, I don't retract my support for that decision - I just don't think we should be following it so rigidly. Being overly concerned with the fact that the "Bulls-Eye Banzai" name didn't exist at the time is such a lawyerly, devil's advocate way of thinking that completely misses the point of why policies and standards exist in the first place. Proposals such as this one and this one are made specifically because following policy in such an overly rigid and literal way actively makes the wiki worse.    15:34, June 27, 2019 (EDT)

You're forgetting, of course, that "Bull's-Eye Banzai" is a play on "Bull's-Eye Bill" - a name which also did not exist until relatively recently (namely as late as Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker). Therefore, this 'fix' alone would create a whole new disparity altogether. The simplest solution is to stick with the proposal/policy as-is, which is more chronologically-accurate anyway. If you want to discuss rewriting the existing text to be more understandable (e.g. "homing King Bills" and "invincible King Bills", or some other way to deal with it), that's fine, but the fact is that using a decade-later rename in the context of the original game makes another issue in this case. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:51, June 27, 2019 (EDT)
I agree with not using King Bill when referring to past appearances of Bull's-Eye Banzai as it's obviously one of Prima's many goofs. There's no possible way it can't be a mistake, since King Bill is the name of an entirely different enemy within the exact same game altogether. Also, not only did they mistakenly call the Bull's-Eye Banzais King Bill, but they also did that for the regular Banzai Bills, which cements it being nothing but a goof even further in my opinion. Keeping King Bill in use here would basically be the same as treating Sumo Bro. as an official name of Sledge Bros. in certain games. I really don't think the name not existing at the time is an issue, since we already do this when applicable for subjects that didn't have an English name to begin with and are given a name in a later game. We don't keep using a Japanese name or something like that for appearances in older games, even though some supported this for Nipper Dandelion. (For the record, I also think situations like this where a Prima goof is considered an official rename because there's no other material for that specific game are in the exact same boat and should be avoided) --  Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 16:44, June 27, 2019 (EDT)
I disagree, it's as if we changed "Bloober" to "Blooper" in the Super Mario Bros. article. If so, it should be called Magnum Search Killer per the usage of old names, otherwise, we'd make a counterproposal. --  FanOfYoshi 16:50, June 27, 2019 (EDT)
@LinkTheLefty: Using adjectives like "homing" and invincible" just sounds like we're talking about the same enemy exhibiting different behaviors rather than two different enemies. It doesn't clarify anything, and going the "chronologically-accurate" route is just eschewing one brand of accuracy for an inferior one. I just don't like the idea of treating strategy guide-specific names like they're the gospel in scenarios when they are so obviously wrong. This isn't the first time you've done this; you went and changed all DK64-related mentions of Gnawties to "Beavers" just because the Prima guide called them that, even though it's a generic term for an enemy that already had a proper official name. Plus, here's a genuine question: what if the "King Bill" name never existed? Would we be using a conjectural name for those articles instead, just because the thing didn't have a name at the time? Of course not. After all, we have "Gale Hawg" and a bunch of "Pig Poppo" enemies because Gale Hawg appeared in Brawl as a sticker. And it can be genuinely argued that Bulls-Eye Banzai didn't have a real name at the time, since "King Bill" wasn't even being used to refer to Bulls-Eye Banzais specifically. The point of the "name at the time" policy is to not confuse the players of those specific games, not prevent some kind of paradox that would result from using later names in older games' articles. The only people who would know these things by the name "King Bill" without reading the wiki are those who read the guide, and even then, those who did so would notice the blatantly inconsistent usage of the name.    16:56, June 27, 2019 (EDT)
@FanOfYoshi: "Bloober" and "Blooper" is a bad comparison since "Bloober" was a genuine official name that came from manuals and not just an obvious strategy guide fail. Also, I don't think the old name policy applies to Japanese names (e.g. Nipper Dandelion).    16:56, June 27, 2019 (EDT)
I'm not sure why you're bringing up old edits like it'll prove a point: I accidentally overlooked the brief mention of Gnawty on page 30 of the manual because it didn't have a description dedicated to it and you corrected it, simple as that. We do apply name changes over time even if they only show up in a "lower" sources (e.g. "Flipswitch Panel" is "Switch Panel" in the context of Super Mario 3D World). In this case, we still refer to Banzai Bill as such because it had an established name prior to New Super Mario Bros. Wii, but Bull's-Eye Banzai's modern name was not established because "Bull's-Eye" wouldn't even be conceived until many years later. As I must point out: changing it to Bull's-Eye Banzai in the context of the original game creates a brand new naming discrepancy with Bull's-Eye Bill, which it is plainly paired with but was originally known as Missile Bill; if exceptions are going to make inconsistencies anyway, then we should not be making them. If we were to use a different name for New Super Mario Bros. Wii sections, FanOfYoshi's suggestion to use the Japanese name is one solution I'd be open to meet in the middle and support, but the last time we had a similar option, it didn't quite pan out (although it's really an unwritten rule and not explicitly against policy, as it's referring to the title and not content). LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:28, June 27, 2019 (EDT)
Again, your argument that the new name is based on another new name is entirely dependent on the fact that an "older name" even exists. If it didn't our only other option would be to use the Japanese name. Which, to be honest, is a much better idea than taking an obvious goof at face value. Using "King Bill" is just trading one inconsistency for a far worse one. I brought up the Beaver thing because it does prove a point: that always taking guide names at face value is detrimental to the wiki's quality. I would have opposed that action even if it weren't for the manual; "Beaver" was not a "name change," it was a generic animal term applied by a writer who clearly didn't know what they were doing. And that's hardly the only example: just look at the Nokottasu/Turtle issue that was settled not too long ago. We went with a Japanese name because the Prima name was hogwash. Guides are often flimsy and unreliable, and not making judgment calls on the validity of their names is only going to damage our credibility. If we have to use the Japanese name, then so be it, but "King Bill" should be mentioned as Prima's mistake and nothing more.   19:18, June 27, 2019 (EDT)
My concern here is not presenting the information in a manner that would be anachronistic, which (among other reasons) is how Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia ended up the way it did. I'll say that Prima's use of "Beaver" was also supported by the Nintendo Power guide (which only uses "beaver" to describe it) and the official website, as well as the in-game Beaver Brawl (note that Kritter's name in intact there) and Beaver Bother (note the in-game instructions don't call them Gnawties), but either way, I overlooked the one mention of "Gnawty beavers" in the manual's description of Jungle Japes over all these other mentions without its name (hardly just one writer's fault). I'll also say that guides are not always faulty; after all, Blooper and Nipper Plant originated from guides when manuals were still using Bloober and Walking Pirana, and there are times like Klamber and Scorchit when we prefer Prima over Nintendo Power. At any rate, I think three of us are in agreement with using the preexisting "Magnum Search Killer" within the context of New Super Mario Bros. Wii. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:44, June 27, 2019 (EDT)
I think it should probably be called "King Bill" for the section, simply because that was the only English-language name they had at the time, and using the file name when there is an English name, (even if shared with every other large Bill in the game) seems ridiculously picky IMO. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:26, June 27, 2019 (EDT)
@LTL: I never said that guides are always faulty, but it's hard to deny that guide names have caused us more than a few headaches: the aforementioned "Turtle" issue, the still ongoing "Huge Red Electrokoopa" discussion, and this are just a few examples. I'm only saying we should be able to discredit guide names that are faulty, like we did with the "Turtles."
@Doc: How is something that makes articles less confusing "picky?" Should we go around changing all SM64DS mentions of King Boo to "Big Boo" because that's what the game called him?    00:06, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
Honestly? I don't see why not. Perhaps "Big Boo (King)" on the SM64DS page and template itself. Anyways, how is it "less confusing" to arbitrarily use the Japanese name in one section when we never do that? "Turtle" was a gneric term, and it's obvious the people who wrote the DK64 PRIMA guide didn't know what they were doing and/or were eating too much sugar. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:36, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
I agree with Doc von Schmeltwick! I was mostly on the fence with Nipper Dandelion, but i at least hoped that we'd use its Japanese names to games and/or source prior to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, but then again.. It didn't work... As well, it's against the "old names" proposal. If this change is made, we should make a counterproposal for the old names proposal. --  FanOfYoshi 01:40, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
For the record, the model data of the homing Bullet and Banzai Bills (at least in New Super Mario Bros. Wii) is shared with their non-homing counterparts, so it wouldn't be referencing a filename; regardless, I'm for either the Prima or Japanese name in context (and I should add, we do use a Japanese name in certain context: Arewo Shitain-hakase in Wario Land 4). LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:42, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
Dr. Shitain has a different JP name for the "Mad Scienstein" appearance, so it's also a different case. That's a big more like either K. Rool or Mr. L, depending on how you look at it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:02, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
It's obvious the people who wrote the NSMBWii Prima guide also didn't know what they were doing and/or were eating too much sugar, since they called three different Bullet Bill variants by the exact same name. If we were to use "King Bill" for Bulls-Eye Banzais, then we'd also have to use it for Banzai Bills, unless there's some material related to NSMBWii that I'm forgetting about that calls them by their proper name. If we can't use the new name, then for me it's Japanese name or bust. The "exceptions to source priority" proposal has already established that we can use lower priority name sources when the higher priority name is inconveniently shared with another subject. And that's exactly what "King Bill" is - a name that belongs to something else. From the exact same game.    00:32, June 30, 2019 (EDT)
Preeeeeeeeeetty sure I remember the Nintendo Power article leading up to its release calling them by the proper name, at any rate... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:42, June 30, 2019 (EDT)
While "King Bill" was used as a blanket term for big Bullet Bills over there, they were still not given a proper name at the time. I think we should make a counterproposal to the source priority exception proposal, as it is subjective about what the better name is. --  FanOfYoshi 04:37, June 30, 2019 (EDT)
I agree with 7feetunder here. Just because there wasn't a proper name at the time doesn't mean a clear mistake should be legitimized. Niiue - Who has lost his tail? 05:02, June 30, 2019 (EDT)
I can definitely confirm that Banzai Bills are named King Bills in the PRIMA guide, until we find the Nintendo Power source, if we want to be consequential, we have to change the name of the Banzai Bills in New Super Mario Bros. Wii.--Mister Wu (talk) 06:03, June 30, 2019 (EDT)
So you mean that the game has a Nintendo Power guide? --  FanOfYoshi 06:12, June 30, 2019 (EDT)
I don't think so. I said Nintendo Power article. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:15, June 30, 2019 (EDT)
There was definitely a screenshot of the Ludwig castle area with Banzai Bills in said screenshot, though I can't remember if it was labelled. This was a decade ago and I looked at it on a school magazine rack, so... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:13, June 30, 2019 (EDT)
Until we find it, we'd have to stick with the name King Bill for now. --  FanOfYoshi 10:32, July 8, 2019 (EDT)
The way I interpret the source priority and "old names" proposal/policy is, because Banzai Bill's name was previously established, we use the name Banzai Bill in the context of New Super Mario Bros. Wii, which is similar rationale to Cheep-Chomp and Sledge Bro being used instead of Boss Bass and Sumo Bro in Yoshi's Island DS and several New Super Mario Bros. games, respectively. Bull's-Eye Banzai wasn't established yet - basically, we're primarily treating the articles/sections with the existing info when the game was released. That aside, I'm pretty sure I too saw Banzai Bill elsewhere - it might have been from a trading card, which also refers to Mechakoopa with its usual name instead of "Windup Koopas". LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:52, July 8, 2019 (EDT)
I agree to include Japanese names as a part of the "old names" policy. --  FanOfYoshi 01:09, July 16, 2019 (EDT)
Regarding my suggestion on using the Japanese name, see here. --  FanOfYoshi 12:04, July 23, 2019 (EDT)

Huh, it turns out that we do have an official English source treating the King Bill name in New Super Mario Bros. Wii in the appropriate wayMedia:NSMBWiiTC-66-Back.png. Does someone have the cards of Bullet Bills and King Bills? The back of those might be really useful for us!--Mister Wu (talk) 07:48, July 30, 2019 (EDT)

Good idea! --  FanOfYoshi 08:05, October 31, 2019 (EDT)

Reopening this, since a new name has emerged regarding the NSMBWii appearance of this enemy: the Mario Portal refers to these as "Bulls-Eye Bomber Bills", while only using "King Bill" to refer to actual King Bills. Admittedly, there are a few issues with this name. First, it, like "Bulls-Eye Banzai", is derived from "Bulls-Eye Bill", which the Mario Portal also uses to refer to what was at the time called a "Missile Bill". Second, "Bomber Bill" is a name used by the portal to refer to Banzai Bills (and not just for NSMBWii), creating another inconsistency. I'd still rather use it than "King Bill". King Bill is used by Prima to refer to all large Bullet Bill variants including Banzai Bomber Bills, so it's inconsistent either way. Furthermore, using King Bill to refer to two completely different Bullet Bill variants from the same game is extremely confusing to readers. We have to use some name other than "King Bill" for NSMBWii, even if it's not this new one.    01:10, August 14, 2022 (EDT)

First of all, while of course we still need to mention the Missile Bill name used in the Prima guide, it's important to note how said name was used exclusively by Prima Games, Nintendo of America consistently used Bull's Eye Bills to refer to these enemies. The material of Nintendo Co. Ltd. consistently stated that those were Search Killers as well, and now the English translation of the Mario Portal uses the term Bull's Eye Bills to refer to those enemies in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. We can't fault Nintendo for using a name they always used, and if our view prevents us from using said name, I'd say it's time to change our view.
The real problem is rather the new consistent renaming of Banzai Bills into Bomber Bills. It's fully consistent, not in a single place of the translated Mario Portal a different name is used, but at the same time as far as I know no game has used this updated name yet. Considering how consistent it is, I wouldn't be surprised if a future game uses Bomber Bill, but until then, it makes the choice of using said name tougher. Maybe we should really wait for Bomber Bill to surface in the games so that we rename the pages and thus we have less of a concern in using said term even in the context of New Super Mario Bros. Wii?--Mister Wu (talk) 09:52, August 14, 2022 (EDT)
The thing is that there are dozens of examples of Mario Portal unifying the most recent name/spelling with older material: you have basically the entire Super Mario Bros./The Lost Levels section (including Lava Bubble), Shoe Goomba, Flame Chomp, Fire Piranha Plant and Mini Goomba appearing as early as the Super Mario Bros. 3 section, Galoomba and its variants in Super Mario World, Maw-Ray and Cheep Chomp in Super Mario 64, Frost Piranha in New Super Mario Bros. U etc. Just about the only inconsistency between sections is the occasional resized enemies and Ground/Hot Urchin for some reason. So if Nintendo is using the name "Bull's-Eye Bill" before its creation, I wouldn't necessarily take that to mean Missile Bill is separate, just that its use has depreciated like everything else before it, and that runs contrary to our general goal of honoring the older names where applicable. I do wonder if Banzai Bill (and Parabomb) has been renamed and that "Boomer Bill" was a sign of things to come, but we can take that as it comes. As it stands, I don't see the point of calling Bull's-Eye Banzais "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills" unless we're also using "Bomber Bills" for Banzai Bills. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:46, August 14, 2022 (EDT)

Something that just came to mind: one of the original arguments against using "Bulls-Eye Banzai" for its NSMBWii appearance was that it was derived from "Bulls-Eye Bill", a name which did not (or at least was not known to) exist at the time. However, the same thing applies to Jumping Fire Piranha Plant, a Super Mario World-exclusive enemy whose name is derived from Fire Piranha Plant, which was known as "Venus Fire Trap" at the time.    19:54, August 27, 2022 (EDT)

In fairness, Jumping Fire Piranha Plant apparently didn't even get its Japanese name until Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., which was well beyond the point Nintendo stopped using Venus Fire Trap in English. Their approach to legacy names isn't the same as ours. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:30, August 30, 2022 (EDT)

Call the Bull's-Eye Banzais in New Super Mario Bros. Wii only "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills"Edit

  This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

Refer to as King Bill 1-8
Lemme tell you what: Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills debuted in New Super Mario Bros. Wii as variant of both the Missile Bill and the Banzai Bill. I see that both Banzai Bills and Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills are mistaken called King Bills in the New Super Mario Bros. Wii PRIMA Official Game Guide. I was just wondering if there's a possibility to call the Bull's-Eye Banzais in New Super Mario Bros. Wii just "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills" instead of "King Bills".

Proposer: GuntherBB (talk)
Deadline: January 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT

SupportEdit

  1. GuntherBB (talk) Per proposal

OpposeEdit

  1. PrincessPeachFan (talk): It may have been a mistake, but it's still a name and we should not ignore it.
  2. MegaBowser64 (talk) Per PrincessPeachFan.
  3. Hewer (talk) Unlike the wiki, Mario Portal generally applies name changes retroactively (e.g. Blooper instead of Bloober, Maw-Ray instead of Unagi), so it seems weird to use this as the name from NSMBW when that's really not what it is. I don't see why we would do this rather than just rename the whole thing to Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill, and since we're waiting for Bomber Bill to be used in a game before we start calling Banzai Bill that, it makes sense to follow suit here.
  4. Swallow (talk) Per all
  5. Arend (talk) As much as I personally believe that the name "Swoopin' Stu" has been misattributed to Gooble instead of the Winged Strollin' Stu, the fact of the matter is that Goobles have been called "Swoopin' Stus" in the official Mario Sunshine guide and we cannot change that. Same deal here. Unless we find an official guide for New Super Mario Bros. Wii that actually calls them Bull's-Eye Banzais (since the name "Bomber Bill" has not been in use at that point of time at all), we unfortunately have to refer to the NSMBWii iteration as the misattributed "King Bill" name, since that was the only official name of these things at that point of time.
  6. Mister Wu (talk) The general policy is using the name of the time, and the only English name we can source is King Bill, no matter if it’s a blatant mistake made by the author of the Prima guide (it almost certainly is)
  7. DrippingYellow (talk) I would much rather have it be retroactively referred to as "Bull's-Eye Banzai" than the more recent "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill".
  8. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all. (also let's not give them ideas about using the name "Magnum Search Killer" in the NSMBWII section)

CommentsEdit

You know, I'm not a big fan of "PRIMA calls one enemy a different name and I don't like it." People make mistakes all the time. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 06:55, January 13, 2024 (EST)

That's okay. Sometimes, you just need to do stuff that you don't like. The English New Super Mario Bros. Wii entry on the official Mario Portal officially calls the Bull's-Eye Banzai Bill the "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" in the game, which obviously makes more sense to me. Even if the proposal will fail in the next two weeks, changes will be enforced. What do you say?  GuntherBayBeee  18:06, January 13, 2024 (EST)
The changes cannot be enforced if the proposal fails.   Nightwicked Bowser   18:08, January 13, 2024 (EST)
@GuntherBB Yeah, if the proposal fails, you can't change the big red bullet's name. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 10:07, January 14, 2024 (EST)
What Swallow said. --  FanOfYoshi 11:04, January 14, 2024 (EST)
Right. So if the proposal fails, it will be declined, and we'll need to leave it the way it is.  GuntherBayBeee  11:09, January 14, 2024 (EST)
Now, let's wait until we find an official source calling the Banzai Bill in New Super Mario Bros. Wii the Bomber Bill.  GuntherBayBeee  11:12, January 14, 2024 (EST)
I'll just direct you to this proposal.   Nightwicked Bowser   13:18, January 14, 2024 (EST)

My thoughts.

My seething hatred for the "Prima name" from years ago has not died down one bit. I railed against it then, and I'll rail against it now. No one is ever going to convince me that just "accepting it" is the right choice here. The mistake isn't even unique to this specific enemy; why shouldn't we also call the Banzai Bills in this game "King Bills" as well? I can at least understand the Construction Site Fight/Balloon Barrage thing, even if I don't agree with it. Not this. This is just taking "stick to the guidelines" way too far, like having the MP3 duel board names in ALL CAPS.

That said, the proposed solution is not the correct one. A better idea would be to use the Japanese name or refer to them generically (e.g. homing Banzai Bill). At least that's less confusing to readers, as opposed to eschewing clarity and credibility in favor of shamelessly clinging to established standards like a life raft.    16:45, January 14, 2024 (EST)

Fellow "homing King Bill" hater here. I'm adverse to the idea of using a generic name, but I'd absolutely support the option to use "Magnum Search Killer" instead. Withdrawing my comment at FanOfYoshi's insistence, as I begrudgingly accept "King Bill" as the only name we have for this enemy at New Super Mario Bros. Wii's time... SolemnStormcloud (talk) 17:00, January 14, 2024 (EST)
How on earth is "Magnum Search Killer" less confusing to readers than "King Bill"? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:23, January 15, 2024 (EST)
I'd argue it is even more confusing, because that would be like referring Clampy to as Akoyagai in its Super Mario Galaxy sections. Yes, i'm referencing an edit from my past-self --  FanOfYoshi 12:13, January 17, 2024 (EST)

@FanOfYoshi "Let's not give them ideas"? It's fine to shut down bad ideas, but you shouldn't get too personal against other users. Sorry if I'm overstepping any boundaries. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 12:46, January 17, 2024 (EST)

I didn't mean anything by it. If anything, i was just trying to comedically play it up a bit. --  FanOfYoshi 12:51, January 17, 2024 (EST)

Bulls Eye Banzai/King Bill NamingEdit

So I've heard a lot of arguments in this discussion board. What is the general consensus regarding the name of this enemy? Because it appears far less frequently it is harder to compare it with the Cheep Chomp and Porcupuffer issue also caused by the Prima Guide. I wasn't aware that this was such a heated debate and accidentally made a few edits assuming someone mistakenly mislabeled the enemy. I can't revert all the changes due to some anti-vandalism measures but I do hope I don't start another massive argument over the name of a red homing missile. -Weej

I am not sure the contributors above realize how "King Bill" is applied as a name in the Prima Games guide for New Super Mario Bros. Wii. "King Bill" is applied to all large Bullet Bill enemies, including the returning Banzai Bill and the "true" King Bill in addition to the Bull's-Eye Banzai, so I do not think it is accurate to say King Bill is "the" name for Bull's-Eye Banzai in New Super Mario Bros. Wii - it is applied as an overarching category for large Bullet Bills. The first localized name would thus be Bull's-Eye Banzai from Super Mario Maker. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:23, September 2, 2024 (EDT)

Refer to this enemy as "Bull's-Eye Banzai" for coverage in New Super Mario Bros. WiiEdit

  This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

Refer to the enemy as "Bull's-Eye Banzai" in coverage of New Super Mario Bros. Wii 9-1-1

When New Super Mario Bros. Wii was released for English-speaking territories, not all new enemies were provided English names to the public. In particular, it seems that Prima Games was provided incomplete information from Nintendo of America that impacted some of the choices made in their guidebook, some of which contradicts other media for New Super Mario Bros. Wii at the time. For example, the Propeller Mushroom, which goes by that name in the instruction booklet on page 15, is referred to as the "Propellerhead" by Prima Games (as exemplified on page 13 and elsewhere in the book). Fuzzies, returning enemies, are completely unmentioned in the guidebook, and Mechakoopas are referred to as "Windup Koopas" (p. 16) despite going by "Mechakoopa" on their EnterPlay trading card for New Super Mario Bros. Wii. The new enemy Scaredy Rat is also unmentioned in the guidebook. It is possible Prima Games was provided information early on that ended up getting changed closer to the release, but the point is that there were unusual localization choices in the guidebook unreflected elsewhere, including for returning and new enemies.

Skimming through prior proposals on this page should make it apparent that this enemy, eventually localized in Super Mario Maker 2 as a "Bull's-Eye Banzai," was one of them, going by "King Bill" in the Prima guidebook and this was inherently confusing because another enemy goes by that name in the same book, as well as subsequent media like New Super Mario Bros. U. While true, I think that is a misinterpretation of how "King Bill" is applied to enemies in the guidebook, or at least not the whole story. Because "King Bill" is not discretely applied to these enemies - it is also applied to the returning Banzai Bill, and is in fact the first enemy in the guidebook called a "King Bill" (p. 16, 136, 142) and the one most often referred to as a "King Bill." The name "Banzai Bill" is not used anywhere in the guidebook. So, "King Bill" is not being applied in the Prima guidebook to one enemy and then erroneously applied to another. Rather, it is a categorical term for all large Bullet Bill variants, regardless of what they are. The reasons why? I do not know. But King Bill was never applied to any of these enemies as a discrete name, but as a categorical term equally applicable to all of them and should not be considered a true discrete name for Bull's-Eye Banzais.

Across the wiki, I still see "King Bill" and "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" applied inconsistently for this enemy, and I do not think that should be the case. The first proper localization for this enemy is Bull's-Eye Banzai and that should be the name we use for it in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. The name used on Mario Portal - "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" - was introduced earlier this year, and I do not believe it is accurate to apply it to an enemy that did receive legitimate localization earlier. I consider it a comparable situation to something like Scaredy Rat, which went unnamed in English until Paper Mario: Sticker Star Mario Party 9.

  1. Support: Refer to this enemy as "Bull's-Eye Banzai" in New Super Mario Bros. Wii coverage.
  2. Refer to this enemy as "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" in New Super Mario Bros. Wii coverage. (per LinkTheLefty below.)
  3. Oppose: Continue calling it "King Bill (World 9-3)" in New Super Mario Bros. Wii coverage.

Proposer: Nintendo101 (talk)
Deadline: October 6th, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support: call it "Bull's-Eye Banzai" in NSMBW coverageEdit

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Pseudo (talk) This seems extremely sensible, particularly for coverage of this enemy in other articles.
  3. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all.
  4. SolemnStormcloud (talk) A little anachronistic considering Bull's-Eye Bills were still named "Missile Bills" at the time, but I'll take it over any possibility for confusion.
  5. TheUndescribableGhost (talk) Yeah, it's anachronistic, but it's super confusing to read sentences like, "King Bills did not return in NSMBU," when that's slightly misleading. The alternative is to refer to them as "homing King Bills" to make the distinction better, but it's not like we can't mention they were referred to King Bills in general. Using Bomber Bill is not a good idea; the "Banzai" title was still used up to that point. A similar case applies to Paragloombas which the wiki still called Flying Goombas for a long time until they got renamed. Despite the renaming happening after the release of Super Mario Maker, the wiki decided to use that new name, as Nintendo already renamed the Galoombas and Flying Goombas technically went unnamed in Super Mario Maker, so we don't have to be awkward here. A similar case applies to the Jumping Fire Piranha Plant.
  6. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all.
  7. 7feetunder (talk) We should have done this a long time ago. Referring to these as "King Bills" is pointlessly confusing and always has been.
  8. Raymond1922A (talk) Per proposal. Much less confusing.
  9. LinkTheLefty (talk) Y'know what, fine, second option it is. Obviously, with how many times this comes up, something's gotta give.

Call it "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" in NSMBW coverageEdit

  1. LinkTheLefty (talk) My position has shifted a little, and now, I kind of want to rip the Band-Aid off. "Mini Goomba" didn't exist until way out in 2006, yet its usage is chronologically zig-zagged for a game ten years older because of a remake. Yes, Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill looks slightly more anachronistic than the alternative, but at this point, all it would take is a feature-rich re-release of New Super Mario Bros. Wii to solidify it here as well. Considering "King Bill" was indeed taken as a catch-all by Prima, a unique name is clearly warranted and would be less confusing, and the only Nintendo source on record (Mario Portal) has made its point.

Oppose: call it "King Bill (World 9-3)" in NSMBW coverageEdit

  1. PrincessPeachFan (talk): Not this again.

CommentsEdit

Slight correction on the Scaredy Rat part: its name was actually introduced in Mario Party 9, which came out a bit earlier than Sticker Star. I should know, I created the Scaredy Rat article myself after splitting it from Little Mouser years ago when I found out about the Scaredy Rat name from some Captain Event footage for Boo's Horror Castle (prior to that, the wiki had assumed that Scaredy Rat was a redesign of Little Mouser, probably because neither the Prima guide nor the Enter-play trading cards had mentioned Scaredy Rats before).  rend (talk) (edits) 17:46, September 22, 2024 (EDT)

I personally wanted to wait until Super Mario Party Jamboree so that Banzai Bill is (likely) Bomber Bill. Either way, the name would have to have retroactive elements since "Bull's-Eye" Bill didn't exist until 2014, and in fact, they were still Missile Bills for New Super Mario Bros. Wii. With that in mind, I'd rather there be a Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill option since at least Nintendo used it in external text in reference to this game, even if it came about sometime later. (Although the current "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" mention contradicts the previous proposals.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:59, September 22, 2024 (EDT)

I understand your perspective, but I do not personally think the use of the word "Bull's-Eye" in the name is consequential, or it at least is less important than the fact that "King Bill" is used with categorical connotation in the Prima guidebook, leaving "Bull's-Eye Banzai" the enemy's first localized English name and even originates directly in a Mario game, which are the types of names we have applied in retrospect on the wiki (again, as was the case with Scaredy Rat).
I did not think including "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" would have mattered based on how the previous proposal went, but I will add it as an option for those interested. Through Biggestman (talk) I know "Bomber Bill" was in the playable demo for Jamboree at PAX (visible here on screen at the 12:28 mark), but I do not think it is relevant to this specific proposal since it strictly concerns itself with how this specific enemy is to be discussed in sections and on pages pertaining to New Super Mario Bros. Wii. - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:27, September 22, 2024 (EDT)
Hmmm, where did I see something like this before? Oh right, when we decided to merge the Frost Piranhas and Ice Piranha Plant articles and relegated the Ice Piranha Plant name to a Prima name because the Mario Portal claimed they were the exact same things because of the Japanese names even though they had completely different appearances and attacks! I say we should just keep the names as is. After all, Nintendo screwed up names as well like when they called Thwomps Thwomp Traps and Sledge Bros. Sumo Bros. in their New Super Mario Bros. Strategy Guide. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 13:02, September 23, 2024 (EDT)
Respectfully, how is that a comparable situation? We are not splitting or lumping articles, "King Bill" is not utilized as a discrete name for any enemies in the Prima Games guidebook, and Japanese names are not even a factor in this proposal. - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:15, September 23, 2024 (EDT)
It's odd that you make a point of Prima names being unreliable (which also would seem to support this proposal's argument) yet suggest we should prioritise the "Ice Piranha Plant" name that also came from Prima. Anyway, I don't think any of that is relevant to this proposal, it's not even about Mario Portal. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 08:52, September 24, 2024 (EDT)
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