MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''


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==Removals==
==Removals==
''None at the moment.''
===Trim the [[list of Snake's codec conversations]] and [[list of Palutena's Guidance conversations]]===
 
This is something that stuck out to me while I was adding profiles to [[Samus]]'s article. These articles, [[List of Snake's codec conversations]] and [[List of Palutena's Guidance conversations]], include the conversations for ''every'' fighter in the Super Smash Bros. series, even all the non-Super Mario characters. About a year ago, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Trim the Smash Bros trophies page|a proposal]] to remove non-Super Mario trophies from the lists of [[Trophy (Super Smash Bros. series)|trophies]] passed with no opposition, and most, if not all, of the points brought up in that proposal also apply here. You can read that proposal if you want to see the arguments in full, but to summarize for this proposal:
==Changes==
*This content does not involve anything from Super Mario and its related franchises, it is purely flavor text about non-Mario characters spoken by non-Mario characters
===Discourage drive-by templating===
*We have a precedent for trimming non-Mario Smash content
 
*Aside from the trivia, this content isn't original to this wiki, it's flavor text pulled straight from the game itself, and you would get the exact same content from just going to SmashWiki instead
Improvement templates are a necessary, or at least beneficiary, eyesore but they can be subject to degenerate editing behaviours. Namely, it's very easy (and common) for editors to just slap improvement templates on pages with no or vague reasons and then leave ([[Template:Rewrite-expand]] in particular is subject to this). Not only can it be Kind of Rude when it's slapped on a recently-created article, the resulting eyesores stay on pages for years, as it's not clear to anyone but the editor who added the template what needs to be done - the [[Donkey Kong]] page has had a Rewrite-Expand notice since ''2017'' for vague "bad writing" and it's hard to tell what's so awful about the existing writing or what content must be added.


Through conversations on our Discord server, I've found other editors share my frustration with this behaviour. Fortunately, I believe there's an easy fix. Most improvement templates have parameters to explain in the template text why the template was added to a page, and any improvement template that currently does not incorporate this can be easily modified to have it. As such I propose, should this pass, that '''from this point, any improvement template added to a page must have its reason parameter filled with specific, actionable points'''. Emphasis on the "specific" - just saying a page has "bad writing" or "is missing images" without specifically saying what is bad about the writing or what images are missing won't cut mustard. Any currently-used instances that do not have their parameter filled (or only give a vague reason) will be removed, although it does not mean the templates can't be readded if specific reasons are listed.
With that in mind, I think the conversations for all non-Super Mario characters should be axed from these lists. The conversations for non-Mario characters that have their own articles, like [[Link]] and [[Samus]], would still be included in their profiles/statistics along with their trophies, since I think the question of whether or not those should also be removed is best saved for a separate proposal.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Glowsquid}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}}<br>
'''Deadline''': March 6, 2023, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': June 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Require improvement templates to have their reason parameter filled, remove unfilled/vague notices on mainspace articles====
====Trim the lists to only the conversations about characters from ''Super Mario'' and its related franchises====
#{{user|Glowsquid}} ^^
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} My first instinct was to think of moving the non-Mario conversations to the sections for each fighter in the fighter lists, but seeing as we didn't do that with other things like their trophies, it's sadly pretty hard to justify keeping a ton of dialogue about non-Mario characters said by non-Mario characters in a non-Mario setting.
#{{User|Swallow}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. For every Guidance/Codec call for an actually relevant character, such as the infamous Viridi speech about [[Piranha Plant]]s that has been outright cited in proposals that resulted in [[Petea Piranha|tangible splits]] [[Fiery Dino Piranha|or merges]], there's Snake's thoughts on Fox McCloud. Take a guess which one we think should stay, and which one we think should probably just stick to being covered on SSBWiki instead.
#{{User|RHG1951}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Somethingone}} My thoughts are best summarized in that one essay I wrote for the character proposal<!--which I wrote completely during a car ride-->; if we trim ''Smash'' content to just Mario stuff in some areas, we should trim it that much in all areas.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} was always bothered by this
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per all.
#{{User|Somethingone}} I don't see any reason why we should not do this.
#{{User|Axis}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per (also the reason parameter should be the second one, not date or user or whatever irrelevant garbage)
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer and others
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} per. Also we should encourage going on talk page or linking to an existing talk page discussion, which can also serve to elaborate on points being made that can't fit on a rewrite template.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} On a Mario Wiki, we should keep the Smash content relevant to Mario.
#{{User|Spectrogram}} per {{user|Bazooka Mario}}.
#{{User|Mario}} Should be in the same way the [[Taunt]] page is now.
#{{User|Platform}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per all.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. I remember doing some edits to the Donkey Kong page and having trouble finding what was being considered "bad writing". So I ended up mostly just removing false information and fixing the formatting on the page.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per proposal, (maybe without the Trivia template).
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|1468z}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per proposal.
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} per all the users who interacted with me previously in one way or another.
#{{user|7feetunder}} Possibly out of the scope of this proposal, but I also think that [[:Template:split|split]] and [[:Template:merge to|merge]] [[:Template:merge from|request]] templates without a discussion tied to them (I've seen several) should be removed for the same reason.
#{{user|Lord Grammaticus}} Absolutely on board.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Shadic 34}} Literally a day before the deadline, but... Per proposal.
#{{user|Mario jc}} Per all.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Yeah, these templates should clearly indicate how to improve the page, otherwise they're pretty much worthless.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per proposal.


====Keep things as they are====
====Do nothing====


====Comments====
====Comments====
This is probably a given already, but will this also apply to "more image" templates? Again, what kind of images required should be stated as well. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 21:42, February 27, 2023 (EST)
Relatedly, it's probably time we do something about [[List of Smash Taunt characters]] (perhaps a merge to the stage lists like what was done with the [[List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros.#Multi-Man mode enemies|Multi-Man enemy teams]]). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:45, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
:Yeah, I think in spirit, this should apply. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 01:54, February 28, 2023 (EST)
Two questions: Specifically what templates would be covered under this proposal? And what would happen to existing examples of unhelpful templates on the wiki already? (i.e.: Donkey Kong's page, Kamek's page) Will they just be removed (per proposal) with no discussion (if so I do agree)? {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 11:17, February 28, 2023 (EST)
:The proposal does say that any templates that either don't have any reasoning or are too vague will be removed from articles. I'm assuming templates like [[Template:Rewrite]], [[Template:More images]] etc will be the ones affected. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 11:37, February 28, 2023 (EST)


So the templates covered would be the following:
I'll be honest, I kinda think the Mario characters should ''also'' have this stuff moved to their profile & statistics sections. That feels more natural to me than making a page for something in Smash and then giving it incomplete coverage. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:07, June 19, 2024 (EDT)


*[[Template:More images]]
==Changes==
*[[Template:More media]]
===Include general game details on pages about remakes, and split "changes from the original" sections if necessary===
*[[Template:Rewrite]]
An issue I've noticed with MarioWiki's coverage of remakes is that it doesn't explain much about the games themselves separate from the original games. This really concerns [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)|''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' (Nintendo Switch)]], as its "Changes from the original game" section is very, ''very'' long (over three-quarters the page, by my count), while not really detailing anything about the game itself. I do understand the "once and only once" policy means that they shouldn't have to be exact duplicates of the original game's pages, but it also leaves the pages about remakes feeling somewhat barebones; if someone wants to learn about the ''TTYD'' remake in a general sense, should they have to go back to the original game's page to learn about it first and ''then'' go to the remake's page to dig through all the tiny changes to find out what's new?
*[[Template:Rewrite-expand]]
*<s>[[Template:Trivia]]</s>


"''Will they just be removed (per proposal) with no discussion?''"
I imagine this policy stems from early in the wiki's history for games like ''[[Super Mario All-Stars]]'' or ''[[Super Mario Advance]]'', which makes sense, as those games are generally simple and don't need much explaining to get the gist of how they work (and the "changes" parts of those pages are generally much smaller). For games like the [[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)|''Super Mario RPG'']] or ''TTYD'' remakes, however, it's pretty difficult to understand what the games are like without referencing the original game's pages, and in turn that leaves coverage on the remakes feeling somewhat incomplete. I actually feel like the ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' page is a good example of how to handle this. It still lists differences from the original ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'', but also explains the game's contents in a standalone manner well. (Maybe adding the rest of the new items and course elements would help, but it at least has the full cast, vehicle selection, and course roster.)


Yes. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 12:41, February 28, 2023 (EST)
My proposal is essentially to have each remake page include general coverage of the game itself, rather than just a list of changes. From there, if each page is too long with general details and lists of changes included, then the list of changes can be split into a sub-page.
:Are you sure including the trivia template for this proposal is a good idea? [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 12:53, February 28, 2023 (EST)
:: I almost put "Maybe it could be an exception? idk" next to it. It already identifies a specific problem so I guess it can be excluded. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 13:04, February 28, 2023 (EST)
::Seconding this question. The community has [https://www.marioboards.com/threads/42301/ already discussed] specific criteria for trimming improper trivia, so any problems signalled by this tag are often easy to detect and fix, even without providing specifics in said tag. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:06, February 28, 2023 (EST)
:That makes sense. You have my vote, although I believe Trivia template should not be included. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 13:36, February 28, 2023 (EST)
::The trivia template probably could be reworked some way, maybe agree on how many trivia points in a trivia section there should be before the template becomes warranted (I'd often say about five or six). {{User:Swallow/sig}} 16:00, February 28, 2023 (EST)
As 7feetunder proposed, would it be possible to include ''[[Template:Split]]'', ''[[Template:Merge to]]'' and ''[[Template:Merge from]]'' in the list? {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 17:22, March 2, 2023 (EST)
:Those (however inexplicably) don't even ''have'' reason parameters, so that is inapplicable here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:48, March 2, 2023 (EST)
::7feetunder said if they could only be used if there is an active discussion or proposal regarding its respective matter, which I would agree with as well. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 17:51, March 2, 2023 (EST)
:::I also agree. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 23:08, March 4, 2023 (EST)
::::I would agree with requiring an active discussion or proposal in order to use merge or split-related templates, as like with the templates currently covered by the proposal, I have seen occasional instances of the reasoning for the split/merge request being only stated in edit summaries. I feel like it is important for the templates to be able to link directly to discussions that include reasoning, as I feel that having to search page histories for reasoning makes it more likely for the templates to just sit on articles without getting attention. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 23:34, March 4, 2023 (EST)
:::::If someone wants to propose merge or split or rename, they should be required to actually start a discussion on the talk page or make a proposal. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 01:55, March 5, 2023 (EST)


===Trim the Smash Bros trophies page===
I don't think the remake pages need to be exact copies of what the pages for each original game say, but having them be a more general overview of how each game works (covering notable changes as well) before getting into the finer differences may be helpful. I represent WiKirby, and this is what we do for WiKirby's remake pages: for example, we have separate pages for ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land|Kirby's Return to Dream Land]]'' and ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe|Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe]]'' that both give a good idea of what the game is like without fully relying on each other to note differences between them. I think this is useful for not having to cross-reference both pages if you want to know the full picture of what the game is like.


[[Special:LongPages]] tells me [[List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U]] is the biggest page on the wiki. That's pretty weird! [[List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS]] follows it at #3, [[List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. Brawl]] at #12 and [[List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. Melee]] #135. I don't have any investment in making [[List of The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! quotes]] the ''rightful'' new biggest page on the wiki but I think a case can be made for trimming the fat.  
This is my first proposal on this wiki, and in general I'm not good at proposals even on my "home" wiki, but I hope this explains what I mean. I think you can decide on a page-by-page basis whether "changes from the original" sections need to split into sub-pages (for instance, the very long ''TTYD'' section might, but something like ''Super Mario Advance'' could get by leaving it on), but I think having the remake's pages be more detailed and less reliant on the originals would only be beneficial to the quality of the wiki's coverage. This is admittedly just a suggestion, so if it's not ideal I'm fine if someone else wants to refine it into something more workable.


'''It's pointless content''': I think the trophies page, in a way, best illustrate the follibles of treating Smash Bros like it's a Mario game that happens to have other Nintendo characters in it. There's a certain amount of sense in thinking "Well Mario is playable in this game and he can punch [[Joker]] so why not have a page on him" but by going from there and treating everything Smash Bros as it's a Mario game, you end up with a situation where spend a lot of bandwith talking about Doshin the Giant, Mach Rider, Judy from F-Zero, etc etc. Characters that have no relevance or presence in the Mario IP, but happens to have some text written about them in a crossover game Mario & co happens to be playable in.
'''Proposer''': {{User|DryKirby64}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>June 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>Extended to June 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to July 1, 2024, 23:59 GMT


'''We have a precedent for trimming Smash content''': A recent proposal agreed to merge characters that don't have any substantial appearance beyond Smash Bros to list pages. It's not been enacted yet - but that's not my problem~
====Support====
#{{User|DryKirby64}} As proposer.
#{{User|Big Super Mario Fan}} I agree with this proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} This is a great idea.


'''It's not original content''': An argument to keep Smash stuff in previous discussions is that the current Smash Wiki we're affiliated with is overtly written for hardcore competitive players in mind and that our Smash Content allows for a "Simple English" alternative for people who don,t care about that stuff. Leaving aside the validity of using the perceived failings of another wiki as a factor in our content, this is so not the case here. It's all straight text dumps directly from the game - text that can be read on other websites and video slideshow of those other trophy galleries. In this instance I believe that, yeah, "just go to Smashwiki" is a valid argument.
====Oppose====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I'm unsure what the best approach is to covering rereleases or remakes, but I do not think we should adopt WiKirby's model of repeating most of the same information as the original game.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Opposing this particular solution, but agreeing that a solution to inadequate remake pages should be found.
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per all.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} I don't think WiKirby is a good example -- of anything. I would be interested in something else to improve the remake pages though.


It's simple. I propose to simply trim those trophies list pages to only the Mario/DK/Wario etc. character and cut the rest. This includes crossover characters that have pages on the wiki - while we may have a [[Link]] page because he's in Mario Kart 8, his Smash Bros trophy is about Link the protagonist of his own independent intellectual property and not Link the funny Mario Kart 8 man, and it leads to the bizarre situation of having a listing of Link but not the character his series is named after. Best keep things simple.  
====Comments====
This is challenging. Whereas I agree with you that the TTYD remake page is basically just a list of changes (and that is something that should be addressed), I don't think that simply rewording most everything on the original TTYD page is the solution. When it comes to RPGs, its much more challenging to fully cover everything in the game because there's a long, detailed story and it would be senseless to reword what is on the original's page to include it on the remake's page. I presume that's what you mean by "general coverage of the game" anyway. This is a problem that should be addressed, but I don't know that either of these two options are the right solution. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 18:51, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
:Mmhm, that makes sense. Like I said, I don't think it should be an exact duplicate of the original page or a paraphrase of it either... Maybe there's a place where I could discuss this with other users to get a better idea of what others think should be done? I went to proposals first since that's what I'm most familiar with, but maybe it would be helpful to iron out the exact issue a bit more to get a better idea of what to do. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 19:21, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
::It couldn't hurt to ask for some guidance from staff on the Discord / forums or research previous proposals to see if something similar has been discussed. You're right to identify this as an issue; I just wish I knew a better solution. Maybe someone will come along with a helpful comment, so I'd at least recommend leaving this proposal up to bring attention to the issue. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 19:28, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::Me personally, I'd repeat gameplay information because that's the thing that's actually changed, whereas story isn't touched at all afaik. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:52, June 16, 2024 (EDT)


'''What about stickers?''': Those have a (minor, barely discernible) gameplay purpose so I thought people might object to the removal of relevant gameplay information.
I think the case-by-case way we do it is fine. For instance, the SMA games and DKC remakes have enough changes both major and minor it makes the most sense to just list everything out again, which in the latters' case we do (thanks to a project of mine). But listing everything in ''Super Mario 3D All-Stars'' would be over-the-top when that's just a fidelity increase for ''three'' games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:34, June 13, 2024 (EDT)


'''What about spirits?''': I thought of lumping them in this proposa, but the deal is that because of the format of World of Light, a PNG might not represent a Mario character but may involve characters, items or stages as part of the fight gimmick. I don't know what to do, so I'll let someone else do it.  
In my eyes, the change list for ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' is very massive, despite my occasional efforts to subcategorize its change list. I could continue to try to compress that page's list, but even I would not call that a gold standard for "Remake changes" lists. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 17:00, June 15, 2024 (EDT)


'''Proposer''': {{User|Glowsquid}}<br>
Just as someone who does go on other wikis to read up about remake information, I actually sometimes don't mind somewhat overlapping information than simply a list of changes (I don't like to hop back in between articles to read up information, especially if, say, the remake is the first time I'm ever experiencing the game). It's the reason I did sorta go all in in [[Mario Sports Superstars]] article (I wouldn't want to jump to two different pages to read mechanics about tennis and golf). I think a very brief summary of the gameplay for TTYD remake would do fine (basic battle system, hammers, jump, partners, that type of thing). {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:50, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': March 8, 2023, 23:59 GMT


====Trim the ''Super Smash Bros'' trophies list to only the content relevant to Mario and related franchises====
Just for reference, the current size of the ''TTYD'' remake page is actually larger than the size of the original page (190,141 bytes vs. 185,302 bytes). {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 23:45, June 20, 2024 (EDT)
#{{user|Glowsquid}} ^^
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Spectrogram}} ''Cut, cut, cut, cut!''
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Godspeed
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} Per proposal
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} A bit skeptical, but per proposal.
#{{user|7feetunder}} Per proposal.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal


====Keep things as they are, don't trim====
===Split ''Wario Land: Shake It!'' bosses into boss levels===
This proposal is similar to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/41#Create separate articles for DKC series and DKL series boss levels|the one that passed]]. As you see, we have [[Motley Bossblob]] and [[Hisstocrat]] boss levels from ''[[Super Mario 3D World]]'', the boss levels from the [[Donkey Kong Country (series)|''Donkey Kong Country'' series]], even boss levels ''[[Yoshi's Crafted World]]'' where each boss guards a [[Dream Gem]]. Right now, you might be wondering how we can create separate articles for the ''[[Wario Land: Shake It!]]'' boss levels.


According to the "<boss> → <boss level>" diagram, the following pages will be affected by the split:


====Comments====
*[[Rollanratl]] → [[Rollanratl Battle]]
How would this affect characters like Sonic or Link who would be removed from the lists but still have their own pages? Will their trophies still be in their respective profile sections? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:32, March 1, 2023 (EST)
*[[Hot Roderick]] → [[Hot Roderick Race]]
:My gut response would be to keep them there. It's the same thing as articles mentiong random character have appeared in Captain N - why not? --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 13:55, March 1, 2023 (EST)
*[[Chortlebot]] → [[Chortlebot Challenge]]
*[[Bloomsday]] → [[Bloomsday Blowout]]
*[[Large Fry]] → [[Large Fry Cook-Off]]
*[[Shake King]] [[VS the Shake King]]


What about the weird situations of some generic subjects? Mainly [[apple]] because it has a gameplay purpose, just not ''Mario''-based. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:47, March 2, 2023 (EST)
Once this proposal passes, then we will be able to create separate articles for the ''Wario Land: Shake It!'' boss levels.


===Change the way ''Super Smash Bros.'' fighter lists are organised===
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}} (banned)<br>
If I may...
'''Deadline''': <s>June 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to July 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT


A month ago, a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Merge_certain_non-Mario_fighters_from_the_Super_Smash_Bros._series_into_game-specific_lists_and_trim_away_detailed_special_move_information_for_all_non-Mario_fighters|proposal]] passed to collect Smash fighters who've had no significance within the ''Mario'' franchise into lists, each list having a focus on fighter appearances in one particular game. A valuable point was made by the opposers, stating that this particular organisation obfuscates the information and disrupts its continuity, forcing readers to jump between pages to get a thorough impression on only a single character--to say nothing of the fact that any other ''Mario'' appearances they had, which are obviously relevant to the wiki, are eviscerated for no reason. The proposal advanced too far in time for me to be able to make changes to it, so I bided my time for another proposal to amend these shortcomings, hence why I personally didn't act upon it.
====Support====
#{{User|Hewer}} I guess this makes sense for consistency with coverage of other games, so per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I don't think this should even have to go through a proposal. All the other boss levels have their own pages.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per proposal; it makes navigation easier and lines up with how we already handle it for other games. (And for the record, short articles are fine: see [[Bowser's Sourpuss Bread]], which succinctly explains its role rather than being padded out for length concerns.)
<s>#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal</s>


With that said, the present proposal isn't meant to overturn the nitty gritty of the one before it. Before I list the specific stuff that I'm proposing to change, here's a recap of what's gonna stay put:
====Oppose====
*Obviously, the fighters are still gonna be compiled into lists, with "main article" links to pages for ''Mario'' characters and those who had some relevance in the franchises this wiki focuses. The list of affected articles is the same as in the previous proposal.
*Detailed move listings are going to be laid to rest, or at most condensed into a fighter's appearance section (if that isn't the case already).
*To avoid inflating these lists, no "profile and statistics" sections will be moved over, especially considering the concurrent proposal to remove trophy information for non-''Mario'' fighters.
*Contrariwise, information on The Subspace Emissary and Classic Mode routes are going to be covered within these lists, since they may involve ''Mario'' elements. To potentially clarify, just as in the current status quo, they will be covered in sub-sections of their respective game appearances. (e.g. "Subspace Emissary info will go in a section under ''Brawl''{{'}}s.)


Now, onto the proposal's actual matter:
====Comments====
*'''The fighters will be organised by the Smash game in which they debuted.''' Fighters who debuted in the og ''Super Smash Bros.'' game will be listed on one page, as should be the case with ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'', ''Brawl'' etc. (with ''Super Smash Bros. for 3DS'' and ''Wii U'' debuts covered on a single list). By extension, instead of splitting their individual Smash appearances between different pages, fighters will have all Smash-relevant contained on one page (e.g. "List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros." will have Pikachu's appearances in all Smash games).
Wouldn't this be creating a bunch of stub articles? Is there sufficient information for all of these characters outside of their battles to warrant separate pages from their battles? For some bosses, I think this makes sense and I also think its good for the wiki to be consistent, but are we solving one "problem" and then creating twelve more by making twelve stub articles? {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 22:16, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
**If the size of these pages and consistency with similar Smash-relevant pages is a concern, the proposal's Support option will be split into '''having all other appearances in ''Mario''-media covered as well''' (dubbed "'''Option 1'''") and '''having only the Smash information covered'''.
:Looking at "[[Special:ShortPages|Short Pages]], when it isn't being filled with small disambiguation articles, articles with imminent deletions, or ''[[Mario Kart Arcade GP]]'' items, even the shortest Wario articles don't really come close to the articles featured here. The shortest Wario-related article we could find isn't even as short as the recently-split ''[[Speed Mario Bros.]]''. While we aren't personally voting (we'd like to see an example draft of what the split articles look like before voting conclusively), we don't feel like article length is a particularly strong reason to be afraid when [[Pesky Billboard]] is an article so small that you could fit its textual content in a floppy disk's boot sector. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 23:46, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
*'''All or the majority of images related to one fighter's game appearance will be moved into a designated gallery sub-section within its respective appearance section.''' This is done, in part, to avoid image clutter; however, if you think one or two images are representative enough to be shown front and center in a section, you may so choose, albeit this is up to each user's or group of users' discretion. The images in question include any images that would potentially be orphaned as a result of purging the move lists. (e.g.: An image of Ness's PK Fire move from ''Brawl'' will be placed along with all the other ''Brawl'' images in Ness' "Super Smash Bros. Brawl" section.) Whether these images or a part of them are necessary to the wiki's well-being is up for another discussion; this proposal only advocates a place for them in the meantime.
:Also, "stub" doesn't mean "short page", it means "page with too little information". If there's not a lot to talk about, then it's perfectly fine for a page to be short and still be complete, so brevity doesn't automatically make it a stub. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:11, June 20, 2024 (EDT)
**As an exception, the fighter's main artwork for their most current Smash appearance (as of today, ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'') is placed at the top-right of the fighter's section, since it's representative of the character's current state in the series. A caption stating that it is the character's artwork from <Smash game> should also be included with the image.
**As part of Option 1, miscellaneous images from other ''Mario'' media will be collected into a Gallery section under a character's "Appearances in other ''Mario''-related media" section. The gallery section will have the same tier as the individual ''Mario'' game appearances.
 
A suggestion, nevertheless not obligately imposed by this proposal, is that each fighter who is covered into their own page should have a short, concise statement about an aspect in the Smash series, as per [[MarioWiki:Empty sections]]. Something along the lines of "This fighter is available by default in <games>, while they are unlockable in <yet other games>." would work, I think, since it's often the first thing mentioned about a fighter in a given Smash appearance.


All of the changes in Option 1 are exemplified in a userspace page I prepared specially for this proposal, which you can view here: [[User:Koopa con Carne/List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros.]] As a point of comparison, you can visualise what the previous proposal espoused at this page: [[User:Koopa con Carne/List of fighters in Super Smash Bros.]]
===Standardize sectioning for ''Super Mario'' series game articles===
I have been attempting to standardize the game articles for the ''[[Super Mario (series)|Super Mario]]'' series on and off for the past few years. I think presenting information in a shared, unified way is beneficial for readers and passively communicates that these games are part of a shared series, something I think is helpful for a franchise covering so many genres and series. Game articles in the ''[[Yoshi's Island (series)|Yoshi's Island]]'' and ''[[Donkey Kong Country (series)|Donkey Kong Country]]'' series are similarly organized to one another. It is easy to jump from one article to another, information is where I'd expect it to be, and they look nice. Good stuff.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
At present, some ''Super Mario'' game articles adopt different organizational structures than others even though they cover the same types of subjects. (As examples, compare ''[[Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins]]'' to ''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]'' and ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]''.) This proposal aims to standardize how they are all sectioned. I think it would be beneficial for their contents.
'''Deadline''': March 8, 2023, 23:59 GMT


====List fighters by debut Smash game (and include other ''Mario''-related appearances)====
The sectioning I employ, in the order as laid out, is:
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Imma go with this one, seeing as how this is the Mario Wiki after all, and [[List of Super Smash Bros. series objects]] already has info on the [[List of Super Smash Bros. series objects#F-Zero machine|F-Zero machine]] in ''Mario'' comics.
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} Per proposal.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} I strongly prefer this method of splitting the fighters over the method established by the previous proposal, as it keeps information about each fighter together on one page, rather than splitting information of each character across five pages. I also do not see harm in keeping additional ''Mario'' related content.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} If we're going to do this, this is a much better organization method.
#{{User|Spectrogram}} While I would much rather prefer a different option of keeping all characters on one page (while keeping ''Mario''-related appearances), for the sake of article size I'll go with the majority.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} This will be much more useful.
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} This will be fine for me.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per Waluigi Time


====List fighters by debut Smash game (but exclude other ''Mario''-related appearances)====
'''Characters''': living/sapient/friendly/neutral subjects that do not cause harm
* '''Playable characters''': characters controlled
* '''Non-playable characters''': characters that aren’t controlled
'''Enemies and obstacles''': subjects that damage or inhibit the player character
* '''Enemies''': living, often multi-membered creatures that occupy the general environment
* '''Obstacles''': abiotic and environmental subjects that cause damage or inhibit movement
* '''Bosses''': subjects that often take multiple hits to defeat and are chiefly major barriers to progression
'''Items and objects''': beneficial and neutral environmental subjects, mostly abiotic
* '''Items''': subjects that are absorbable/collectible, holdable, or health-restoring
* '''Power-ups''': items that transform the player character’s appearance and grant unique abilities
* '''Objects''': interactable subjects in the environment that are not items


====Keep the course of the previous proposal====
This sectioning arrangement has been integrated on the ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]'', ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels]]'', ''[[Super Mario Land]]'', ''[[Super Mario 64]]'', ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]'', ''[[Super Mario Galaxy]]'', ''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]'', ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]'', ''[[Super Mario 3D World]]'', and ''[[Super Mario Odyssey]]'' articles.


====Comments====
Because of the tactile nature of platformers, I like organizing subjects based on their mechanical relationship to the player character, so I keep bosses organized with enemies and obstacles because they all hurt the player. It is also thematically appropriate, because at least some bosses are usually rulers of an enemy species in the same section. I do not like using terms that have strong connotations outside of gaming like "cast" or "antagonist". (I particularly do not like using "antagonist" here because these platformers are not chiefly driven by narrative, so the fact that some bosses also serve antagonistic narrative roles is of lesser importance to their tactile roles as bosses.) "Characters" is more neutral, I think. I also do not separate "returning enemies" from "new ones". I'd rather delineate that information in one shared table, [[Super Mario Galaxy#Enemies|like so]]. It keeps related enemy species next to each other regardless of whether they're new.


===Merge ''Mario Kart Tour'' Kart and Glider variants or Split Character variants: The Threequel===
I don't envision this sectioning being applied rigidly, and this is apparent in some of the articles I linked to above. There aren't really enough items in ''Super Mario Land'' for them to be severed from power-ups, so I lumped them together in one table there. Both ''Super Mario Sunshine'' and ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' include a "rideable characters" section, and there is a "clothing" section between "Items" and "objects" in ''Super Mario Odyssey''. Rather, I would like this sectioning to be a jumping off point, from which users can manipulate and change things as needed. No two games are exactly the same, after all.
Oh boy, he's at it again


I understand I’ve brought this up many times before, be it through [[Talk:Mario Kart Tour#Palette Swaps|discussions]] or [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/57#Split or Merge Mario Kart Tour's Pallet Swaps|past]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/58#Split Mario Kart Tour character variants or merge kart/glider variants: Take 2|proposals]], and regardless of which solution has been agreed on thus far, I still feel this situation could be handled better. Thus I feel it necessary to revisit the whole ordeal with ''Mario Kart Tour’s'' karts and gliders. The way we cover the characters, karts and gliders is still glaringly inconsistent and it feels it gets more inconsistent the more I think about it; character alternates, kart alternates and glider alternates all share the same differences; different favorite and favored courses, differnet visual appearances and different special items/skills/item bonuses. However the characters do not get their own articles (for reasonable reasons), but the karts and gliders, despite being palette swaps, just as Yoshis or Shy Guys are, can have their own articles, creating that inconsistency between not only the character alternates as a whole, but how we naturally treat other palette swaps. And I feel we need to fix that. I’ve brought this topic up at least twice in previous proposals, with the only passable outcome being to create list articles on character variants (something I have still failed to follow through with). But with the arguments against splitting Yoshi colors, I can’t help but be bothered by how the arguments there contradict with how we handle these karts and gliders. One the main arguments being that splitting the Yoshi colors seems excessive. I still don’t understand how extra articles for different colored Yoshis is excessive, but extra articles for different colored Yoshi karts is not excessive. And while splitting Yoshi colors extends to other species, merging karts and gliders does not extend to nearly as many similar problems, with the only real one being the ''Mario Kart: Double Dash!!'' karts and several ''Mario Kart 8'' wheel sets. Those, as well as other arguments, are here with my attempts at answering them:
I offer four options.


*'''The Karts and Gliders have different statistics:''' A point I feel is completely null at this point. As I’ve mentioned, character alternates feature the same differences and they are deemed too excessive to split. On top of that, again drawing parallels to the Yoshi debate, the colored species such as Yoshi, Shy Guy and Birdo have the same Tour differences, with Yoshis having even more beyond that across many other games and that’s still not enough to consider their own articles. Heck Shy Guy has variants that are a mix of coloured variants and themed variants (Pink Shy Guy (Ninja) for example, being an alternate of Pink Guy Guy while also being a variant of Shy Guy (Ninja), if that makes any sense). As such, “different stats” is either not enough to warrant a split or there needs to be a general agreement on how different said stats need to be. Until then, karts and gliders having different statistics feels like a nullified point.
#'''Support: I like this! Let's do it''' (if this passes, this sectioning arrangement will be integrated into the remaining ''Super Mario'' game articles)
*'''They look different/have different names:''' Sure, the Magic Parasol has a different texture than the Peach Parasol, but if having gameplay function isn’t enough, then I fail to see how having a visual difference means anything. The Magic Parasol still looks identical to the Peach Parasol, just with a different visual appearance, just as Santa Mario still looks identical to Mario, just with a different visual appearance (or outfit appearance I should say). It wouldn’t be hard to list variants of karts and gliders in the same way we list variants for characters. Heck, we can list variants off in the same way we list the Mii Racing suits: a table with an image, tour debut and special skill/item bonus. As for naming, it WOULD be a viable argument if several karts didn’t follow the same naming convention as the colored alternates; Blue Biddybuggy, Green Cheep Charger or Gold Clanky Kart are literally the same concept as Blue Yoshi, Green Shy Guy etc. And that’s not even covering the fact that there are gold characters as well as gold karts and gliders. Even ignoring those names, a lot of karts are just “Insert descriptive word” “Insert original Kart name” (Grand Badwagon, Sunny Surf Sailer etc). Compare that to real life; do we consider cars completely different if they’re different colors? I’m pretty sure a blue Nissan Micra and a red Nissan Micra are still Nissan Micras. The naming of karts is generally no different than character alternates.
#'''Support: I like some of this, but I would lay out things a little differently''' (if this one passes, a second proposal would be raised by the voters that outline their preferred organizational scheme)
*'''Some of the kart variants have different sizes:''' Again, gameplay differences of a bigger scale don’t cut it, I can’t see how this would.
#'''Oppose: The sectioning seems fine, but I would rather we not adopt this as strict policy''' (this option is basically the "do nothing" option)
*'''It’s harder to pinpoint the original kart/glider:''' Originally, yes, it was and that was a very good point to make. But as of now, both file names and ID numbers can and have proven to be reliable ways to work around this, as we have done with the Butterfly Wings and the Dragonfly/Dozer Dasher idea. Some karts, like the Speeder (Jetsetter), which doesn’t really have a set variant name (as the first variant was just named Green Speeder) don’t really need a kart with the base name, as it kinda already exists from before. The Kiddie Karts are in a similar boat, with neither names indicating which the original variant is, but the file ID seems to point towards the Red Kiddie Kart being the original variant. Which debuts first doesn’t seem to make a difference.
#'''Oppose: I do not like this sectioning at all, and want to see the articles where it's used changed'''
*'''''Mario Kart Double Dash'' and ''Mario Kart 8'' also feature palette swapped karts/parts:''' Indeed they do and they should definitely be under the microscope too. However ''Mario Kart Double Dash’s'' palette swapped karts are of fewer numbers when compared to how many variants of karts are in ''Tour'', though in all fairness, these aren’t creating an inconsistency in the same way ''Tour'' does. If we do end up merging karts and gliders, THEN it’s something to discuss and I am definitely not against discussing that and I’d fully support the idea of merging kart part variants in ''Mario Kart 8'' (the wheels specifically, as they feature no stat differences and are only palette swaps), but right now, I would like to focus on ''Tour’s'' problem and bring up that possibility later. I will say, however, that at the moment, I’d like to leave the Gold Standard, Gold Tires and Gold Glider off the list of things to merge, as they have had consistent appearances across several games, though if the idea of merging them too comes up, I’d gladly discuss that.
*'''What about other similar topics:''' Honestly, this proposal isn’t meant to cover and consider every instance where this happens, it’s meant to concern Mario Kart Tour. If this passes and other areas become inconsistent, we can discuss those instances separately.


All that being said, I think the options are simple. While I do feel there’s a general agreement on how we cover character alternates, for the sake of keeping all options on the table, I will still include the idea of creating articles for character alternates.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Nintendo101}}<br>
'''Deadline''': June 3rd, 2024, 23:59 GMT


*'''Split character variants into their own articles:''' Character alternates like Mario (Santa), Yoshi (Kangaroo) or Dry Bones (Gold) will get their own articles, just as kart and glider variants do. However, as previously noted, this does open up a lot of further inconsistencies, such as how we cover colored variants of characters or even the topics of power-up variants other than Mario (Tanooki Rosalina, Cat Peach, heck even Dr. Luigi).  
====Support: I like this! Let's do it====
*'''Merge Kart and Glider variants to their parent articles:''' Kart and Glider alternates, such as the Blue Badwagon or the Shell Parachute, will be merged with the kart/glider they spawned off of, with the variants being listed off in a similar manner to how character alternates are listed off on character pages or how Mii Racing Suits are listed. A separate gallery section can be added to each page to showcase variants. In terms of which are the parent topics, we can easily use file names or IDs to determine this, though many of these variants are pretty easy to spot.  
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
*'''Do nothing:''' We decide to leave everything as is.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Consistency is never a bad thing.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} I guess if this ought to be a proposal, then sure, per proposal.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per proposal


I have made a complete list of each kart and glider and the variants they have on my [[User:Tails777/Work#MKT Kart and Glider Variants|work page]]. If there is anything I missed or anything to question, let me know.
====Support: I like some of this, but I would lay out things a little differently====


'''Proposer''': {{User|Tails777}}<br>
====Oppose: The sectioning seems fine, but I would rather we not adopt this as strict policy====
'''Deadline''': March 12, 2023, 23:59 GMT


====Split Character Variants====
====Oppose: I do not like this sectioning at all, and want to see the articles where it's used changed====
# {{User|Ahemtoday}} I agree that we need to treat these things consistently, but I think we need to go the other direction. Aside from the arcade games and ''Live'', which Nintendo does not seem to consider part of the main series, there's little precedent for character "variants" outside of that set by ''Tour'' itself. There's just the different colors of Yoshi and Shy Guy for Download Play stuff up until ''8'', which has... well, still Yoshi and Shy Guy colors, but also the different Villager genders. ''8 Deluxe'' introduces Gold Mario and ''BotW'' Link, but also splits the Villagers and Inklings. That's all of two costumes that actually stayed ''costumes'' instead of getting their own spot on the character select. And one of them's unlockable and the other one's a post-launch update, so neither of them are exactly "normal". It falls to ''Tour'', then, to set the precedent for how the series treats "costumes"... and it treats them all as their own characters. And why shouldn't it? The other games have stuff like Dry Bowser and Tanooki Mario and Pink Gold Peach, and they've all been listed as separate characters despite being exactly as different as your average Tour variant. This is unlike palette swaps, which have a much stronger precedent of ''not'' having their own space on the character select. '''To summarize: the handheld games set a precedent for color variants not being separate, so they should stay merged. In the entire rest of the main series, in and outside of Tour, non-color variants are treated like separate characters, and therefore they should be split.'''
# {{User|Spectrogram}} No, I don't think this is the right call.


====Merge Kart and Glider Variants====
====Comments on standardize sectioning for ''Super Mario'' series game articles====
#{{User|Tails777}} I still support this idea. It's easier and more consistent with how we handle the character variants and other palette swapped characters.
These sound like good ideas, but do they need a proposal? Proposal rule 15: "Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages." {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:39, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
 
:I originally did not plan on doing so, but {{User|EvieMaybe}} recommended I raise one. I supposed it was a good way to assess how other folks think game articles should be organized. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:45, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
====Do Nothing====
 
====Comments====
Would articles on separate character variants detail any prior history of that variant? Like, would Mario (Chef) have separate sections on the outfit's appearances in ''Yoshi's Cookie'' and ''Super Mario Odyssey''? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 08:54, March 6, 2023 (EST)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 22:46, June 26, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page

Current time:
Thursday, June 27th, 05:59 GMT

Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • "Vote" periods last for one week.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  9. All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
  10. If a proposal with only two voting options has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail with a margin of at least three votes, otherwise the deadline will be extended for another week as if no majority was reached at all.
  11. Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
  12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  14. Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
  17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.


===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "June 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====


Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
  3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.
  5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Split Mario Kart Tour character variants into list articles, Tails777 (ended May 4, 2022)
Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)
Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki, Koopa con Carne (ended April 30, 2024)
Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Get rid of the "Subject origin" parameter on the species infobox, DrippingYellow (ended June 25, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
  • ^ NOTE: Currently the subject of an active proposal.
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Split Mario's Time Machine (Nintendo Entertainment System), or the Super Nintendo Entertainment version along with both console versions of Mario is Missing!, LinkTheLefty (ended April 11, 2024)
Remove non-Super Mario content from Super Smash Bros. series challenges articles, BMfan08 (ended May 3, 2024)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

Trim the list of Snake's codec conversations and list of Palutena's Guidance conversations

This is something that stuck out to me while I was adding profiles to Samus's article. These articles, List of Snake's codec conversations and List of Palutena's Guidance conversations, include the conversations for every fighter in the Super Smash Bros. series, even all the non-Super Mario characters. About a year ago, a proposal to remove non-Super Mario trophies from the lists of trophies passed with no opposition, and most, if not all, of the points brought up in that proposal also apply here. You can read that proposal if you want to see the arguments in full, but to summarize for this proposal:

  • This content does not involve anything from Super Mario and its related franchises, it is purely flavor text about non-Mario characters spoken by non-Mario characters
  • We have a precedent for trimming non-Mario Smash content
  • Aside from the trivia, this content isn't original to this wiki, it's flavor text pulled straight from the game itself, and you would get the exact same content from just going to SmashWiki instead

With that in mind, I think the conversations for all non-Super Mario characters should be axed from these lists. The conversations for non-Mario characters that have their own articles, like Link and Samus, would still be included in their profiles/statistics along with their trophies, since I think the question of whether or not those should also be removed is best saved for a separate proposal.

Proposer: Dive Rocket Launcher (talk)
Deadline: June 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Trim the lists to only the conversations about characters from Super Mario and its related franchises

  1. Dive Rocket Launcher (talk) Per proposal.
  2. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Hewer (talk) My first instinct was to think of moving the non-Mario conversations to the sections for each fighter in the fighter lists, but seeing as we didn't do that with other things like their trophies, it's sadly pretty hard to justify keeping a ton of dialogue about non-Mario characters said by non-Mario characters in a non-Mario setting.
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. For every Guidance/Codec call for an actually relevant character, such as the infamous Viridi speech about Piranha Plants that has been outright cited in proposals that resulted in tangible splits or merges, there's Snake's thoughts on Fox McCloud. Take a guess which one we think should stay, and which one we think should probably just stick to being covered on SSBWiki instead.
  5. Somethingone (talk) My thoughts are best summarized in that one essay I wrote for the character proposal; if we trim Smash content to just Mario stuff in some areas, we should trim it that much in all areas.
  6. DrBaskerville (talk) Per all.
  7. Axis (talk) Per proposal.
  8. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposer and others
  9. SeanWheeler (talk) On a Mario Wiki, we should keep the Smash content relevant to Mario.
  10. Mario (talk) Should be in the same way the Taunt page is now.
  11. Nintendo101 (talk) Per all.

Do nothing

Comments

Relatedly, it's probably time we do something about List of Smash Taunt characters (perhaps a merge to the stage lists like what was done with the Multi-Man enemy teams). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:45, June 19, 2024 (EDT)

I'll be honest, I kinda think the Mario characters should also have this stuff moved to their profile & statistics sections. That feels more natural to me than making a page for something in Smash and then giving it incomplete coverage. Ahemtoday (talk) 19:07, June 19, 2024 (EDT)

Changes

Include general game details on pages about remakes, and split "changes from the original" sections if necessary

An issue I've noticed with MarioWiki's coverage of remakes is that it doesn't explain much about the games themselves separate from the original games. This really concerns Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), as its "Changes from the original game" section is very, very long (over three-quarters the page, by my count), while not really detailing anything about the game itself. I do understand the "once and only once" policy means that they shouldn't have to be exact duplicates of the original game's pages, but it also leaves the pages about remakes feeling somewhat barebones; if someone wants to learn about the TTYD remake in a general sense, should they have to go back to the original game's page to learn about it first and then go to the remake's page to dig through all the tiny changes to find out what's new?

I imagine this policy stems from early in the wiki's history for games like Super Mario All-Stars or Super Mario Advance, which makes sense, as those games are generally simple and don't need much explaining to get the gist of how they work (and the "changes" parts of those pages are generally much smaller). For games like the Super Mario RPG or TTYD remakes, however, it's pretty difficult to understand what the games are like without referencing the original game's pages, and in turn that leaves coverage on the remakes feeling somewhat incomplete. I actually feel like the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe page is a good example of how to handle this. It still lists differences from the original Mario Kart 8, but also explains the game's contents in a standalone manner well. (Maybe adding the rest of the new items and course elements would help, but it at least has the full cast, vehicle selection, and course roster.)

My proposal is essentially to have each remake page include general coverage of the game itself, rather than just a list of changes. From there, if each page is too long with general details and lists of changes included, then the list of changes can be split into a sub-page.

I don't think the remake pages need to be exact copies of what the pages for each original game say, but having them be a more general overview of how each game works (covering notable changes as well) before getting into the finer differences may be helpful. I represent WiKirby, and this is what we do for WiKirby's remake pages: for example, we have separate pages for Kirby's Return to Dream Land and Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe that both give a good idea of what the game is like without fully relying on each other to note differences between them. I think this is useful for not having to cross-reference both pages if you want to know the full picture of what the game is like.

This is my first proposal on this wiki, and in general I'm not good at proposals even on my "home" wiki, but I hope this explains what I mean. I think you can decide on a page-by-page basis whether "changes from the original" sections need to split into sub-pages (for instance, the very long TTYD section might, but something like Super Mario Advance could get by leaving it on), but I think having the remake's pages be more detailed and less reliant on the originals would only be beneficial to the quality of the wiki's coverage. This is admittedly just a suggestion, so if it's not ideal I'm fine if someone else wants to refine it into something more workable.

Proposer: DryKirby64 (talk)
Deadline: June 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to June 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to July 1, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. DryKirby64 (talk) As proposer.
  2. Big Super Mario Fan (talk) I agree with this proposal.
  3. Super Mario RPG (talk) This is a great idea.

Oppose

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) I'm unsure what the best approach is to covering rereleases or remakes, but I do not think we should adopt WiKirby's model of repeating most of the same information as the original game.
  2. DrBaskerville (talk) Opposing this particular solution, but agreeing that a solution to inadequate remake pages should be found.
  3. MegaBowser64 (talk) Per all.
  4. Scrooge200 (talk) I don't think WiKirby is a good example -- of anything. I would be interested in something else to improve the remake pages though.

Comments

This is challenging. Whereas I agree with you that the TTYD remake page is basically just a list of changes (and that is something that should be addressed), I don't think that simply rewording most everything on the original TTYD page is the solution. When it comes to RPGs, its much more challenging to fully cover everything in the game because there's a long, detailed story and it would be senseless to reword what is on the original's page to include it on the remake's page. I presume that's what you mean by "general coverage of the game" anyway. This is a problem that should be addressed, but I don't know that either of these two options are the right solution.   Dr. Baskerville   18:51, June 10, 2024 (EDT)

Mmhm, that makes sense. Like I said, I don't think it should be an exact duplicate of the original page or a paraphrase of it either... Maybe there's a place where I could discuss this with other users to get a better idea of what others think should be done? I went to proposals first since that's what I'm most familiar with, but maybe it would be helpful to iron out the exact issue a bit more to get a better idea of what to do. DryKirby64 (talk) 19:21, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
It couldn't hurt to ask for some guidance from staff on the Discord / forums or research previous proposals to see if something similar has been discussed. You're right to identify this as an issue; I just wish I knew a better solution. Maybe someone will come along with a helpful comment, so I'd at least recommend leaving this proposal up to bring attention to the issue.   Dr. Baskerville   19:28, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
Me personally, I'd repeat gameplay information because that's the thing that's actually changed, whereas story isn't touched at all afaik.   Ray Trace(T|C) 12:52, June 16, 2024 (EDT)

I think the case-by-case way we do it is fine. For instance, the SMA games and DKC remakes have enough changes both major and minor it makes the most sense to just list everything out again, which in the latters' case we do (thanks to a project of mine). But listing everything in Super Mario 3D All-Stars would be over-the-top when that's just a fidelity increase for three games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:34, June 13, 2024 (EDT)

In my eyes, the change list for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is very massive, despite my occasional efforts to subcategorize its change list. I could continue to try to compress that page's list, but even I would not call that a gold standard for "Remake changes" lists. DandelionSprout (talk) 17:00, June 15, 2024 (EDT)

Just as someone who does go on other wikis to read up about remake information, I actually sometimes don't mind somewhat overlapping information than simply a list of changes (I don't like to hop back in between articles to read up information, especially if, say, the remake is the first time I'm ever experiencing the game). It's the reason I did sorta go all in in Mario Sports Superstars article (I wouldn't want to jump to two different pages to read mechanics about tennis and golf). I think a very brief summary of the gameplay for TTYD remake would do fine (basic battle system, hammers, jump, partners, that type of thing).   Ray Trace(T|C) 12:50, June 16, 2024 (EDT)

Just for reference, the current size of the TTYD remake page is actually larger than the size of the original page (190,141 bytes vs. 185,302 bytes). Scrooge200 (talk)   23:45, June 20, 2024 (EDT)

Split Wario Land: Shake It! bosses into boss levels

This proposal is similar to the one that passed. As you see, we have Motley Bossblob and Hisstocrat boss levels from Super Mario 3D World, the boss levels from the Donkey Kong Country series, even boss levels Yoshi's Crafted World where each boss guards a Dream Gem. Right now, you might be wondering how we can create separate articles for the Wario Land: Shake It! boss levels.

According to the "<boss> → <boss level>" diagram, the following pages will be affected by the split:

Once this proposal passes, then we will be able to create separate articles for the Wario Land: Shake It! boss levels.

Proposer: GuntherBayBeee (talk) (banned)
Deadline: June 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to July 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Hewer (talk) I guess this makes sense for consistency with coverage of other games, so per proposal.
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) I don't think this should even have to go through a proposal. All the other boss levels have their own pages.
  3. Scrooge200 (talk) Per proposal; it makes navigation easier and lines up with how we already handle it for other games. (And for the record, short articles are fine: see Bowser's Sourpuss Bread, which succinctly explains its role rather than being padded out for length concerns.)

#GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per proposal

Oppose

Comments

Wouldn't this be creating a bunch of stub articles? Is there sufficient information for all of these characters outside of their battles to warrant separate pages from their battles? For some bosses, I think this makes sense and I also think its good for the wiki to be consistent, but are we solving one "problem" and then creating twelve more by making twelve stub articles?   Dr. Baskerville   22:16, June 19, 2024 (EDT)

Looking at "Short Pages, when it isn't being filled with small disambiguation articles, articles with imminent deletions, or Mario Kart Arcade GP items, even the shortest Wario articles don't really come close to the articles featured here. The shortest Wario-related article we could find isn't even as short as the recently-split Speed Mario Bros.. While we aren't personally voting (we'd like to see an example draft of what the split articles look like before voting conclusively), we don't feel like article length is a particularly strong reason to be afraid when Pesky Billboard is an article so small that you could fit its textual content in a floppy disk's boot sector. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 23:46, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
Also, "stub" doesn't mean "short page", it means "page with too little information". If there's not a lot to talk about, then it's perfectly fine for a page to be short and still be complete, so brevity doesn't automatically make it a stub. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:11, June 20, 2024 (EDT)

Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles

I have been attempting to standardize the game articles for the Super Mario series on and off for the past few years. I think presenting information in a shared, unified way is beneficial for readers and passively communicates that these games are part of a shared series, something I think is helpful for a franchise covering so many genres and series. Game articles in the Yoshi's Island and Donkey Kong Country series are similarly organized to one another. It is easy to jump from one article to another, information is where I'd expect it to be, and they look nice. Good stuff.

At present, some Super Mario game articles adopt different organizational structures than others even though they cover the same types of subjects. (As examples, compare Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins to New Super Mario Bros. U and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.) This proposal aims to standardize how they are all sectioned. I think it would be beneficial for their contents.

The sectioning I employ, in the order as laid out, is:

Characters: living/sapient/friendly/neutral subjects that do not cause harm

  • Playable characters: characters controlled
  • Non-playable characters: characters that aren’t controlled

Enemies and obstacles: subjects that damage or inhibit the player character

  • Enemies: living, often multi-membered creatures that occupy the general environment
  • Obstacles: abiotic and environmental subjects that cause damage or inhibit movement
  • Bosses: subjects that often take multiple hits to defeat and are chiefly major barriers to progression

Items and objects: beneficial and neutral environmental subjects, mostly abiotic

  • Items: subjects that are absorbable/collectible, holdable, or health-restoring
  • Power-ups: items that transform the player character’s appearance and grant unique abilities
  • Objects: interactable subjects in the environment that are not items

This sectioning arrangement has been integrated on the Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels, Super Mario Land, Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Super Mario 3D Land, Super Mario 3D World, and Super Mario Odyssey articles.

Because of the tactile nature of platformers, I like organizing subjects based on their mechanical relationship to the player character, so I keep bosses organized with enemies and obstacles because they all hurt the player. It is also thematically appropriate, because at least some bosses are usually rulers of an enemy species in the same section. I do not like using terms that have strong connotations outside of gaming like "cast" or "antagonist". (I particularly do not like using "antagonist" here because these platformers are not chiefly driven by narrative, so the fact that some bosses also serve antagonistic narrative roles is of lesser importance to their tactile roles as bosses.) "Characters" is more neutral, I think. I also do not separate "returning enemies" from "new ones". I'd rather delineate that information in one shared table, like so. It keeps related enemy species next to each other regardless of whether they're new.

I don't envision this sectioning being applied rigidly, and this is apparent in some of the articles I linked to above. There aren't really enough items in Super Mario Land for them to be severed from power-ups, so I lumped them together in one table there. Both Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy 2 include a "rideable characters" section, and there is a "clothing" section between "Items" and "objects" in Super Mario Odyssey. Rather, I would like this sectioning to be a jumping off point, from which users can manipulate and change things as needed. No two games are exactly the same, after all.

I offer four options.

  1. Support: I like this! Let's do it (if this passes, this sectioning arrangement will be integrated into the remaining Super Mario game articles)
  2. Support: I like some of this, but I would lay out things a little differently (if this one passes, a second proposal would be raised by the voters that outline their preferred organizational scheme)
  3. Oppose: The sectioning seems fine, but I would rather we not adopt this as strict policy (this option is basically the "do nothing" option)
  4. Oppose: I do not like this sectioning at all, and want to see the articles where it's used changed

Proposer: Nintendo101 (talk)
Deadline: June 3rd, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support: I like this! Let's do it

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) Consistency is never a bad thing.
  3. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
  4. Hewer (talk) I guess if this ought to be a proposal, then sure, per proposal.
  5. EvieMaybe (talk) per proposal

Support: I like some of this, but I would lay out things a little differently

Oppose: The sectioning seems fine, but I would rather we not adopt this as strict policy

Oppose: I do not like this sectioning at all, and want to see the articles where it's used changed

Comments on standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles

These sound like good ideas, but do they need a proposal? Proposal rule 15: "Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages." Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:39, June 26, 2024 (EDT)

I originally did not plan on doing so, but EvieMaybe (talk) recommended I raise one. I supposed it was a good way to assess how other folks think game articles should be organized. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:45, June 26, 2024 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.