MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''


==New features==
==New features==
===Create a article for List of television networks===
''None at the moment.''
Hi, i was wondering if a article can be made listing all the television networks that the Mario and Donkey Kong TV Shows and Movies aired on.
 
==Removals==
===Trim the [[list of Snake's codec conversations]] and [[list of Palutena's Guidance conversations]]===
This is something that stuck out to me while I was adding profiles to [[Samus]]'s article. These articles, [[List of Snake's codec conversations]] and [[List of Palutena's Guidance conversations]], include the conversations for ''every'' fighter in the Super Smash Bros. series, even all the non-Super Mario characters. About a year ago, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Trim the Smash Bros trophies page|a proposal]] to remove non-Super Mario trophies from the lists of [[Trophy (Super Smash Bros. series)|trophies]] passed with no opposition, and most, if not all, of the points brought up in that proposal also apply here. You can read that proposal if you want to see the arguments in full, but to summarize for this proposal:
*This content does not involve anything from Super Mario and its related franchises, it is purely flavor text about non-Mario characters spoken by non-Mario characters
*We have a precedent for trimming non-Mario Smash content
*Aside from the trivia, this content isn't original to this wiki, it's flavor text pulled straight from the game itself, and you would get the exact same content from just going to SmashWiki instead


The reason we need this article on the wiki is i want to document the networks that aired the shows in every region in a list so that it can be well-documented here on the wiki and also preserved for the future for anybody that wants to know what networks aired the shows on in other regions such as Jetix for example.
With that in mind, I think the conversations for all non-Super Mario characters should be axed from these lists. The conversations for non-Mario characters that have their own articles, like [[Link]] and [[Samus]], would still be included in their profiles/statistics along with their trophies, since I think the question of whether or not those should also be removed is best saved for a separate proposal.


'''Proposer''': {{User|MarioKartFan4863927}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': June 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Trim the lists to only the conversations about characters from ''Super Mario'' and its related franchises====
#{{User|MarioKartFan4863927}} Per
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} Per proposal.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} My first instinct was to think of moving the non-Mario conversations to the sections for each fighter in the fighter lists, but seeing as we didn't do that with other things like their trophies, it's sadly pretty hard to justify keeping a ton of dialogue about non-Mario characters said by non-Mario characters in a non-Mario setting.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. For every Guidance/Codec call for an actually relevant character, such as the infamous Viridi speech about [[Piranha Plant]]s that has been outright cited in proposals that resulted in [[Petea Piranha|tangible splits]] [[Fiery Dino Piranha|or merges]], there's Snake's thoughts on Fox McCloud. Take a guess which one we think should stay, and which one we think should probably just stick to being covered on SSBWiki instead.
#{{User|Somethingone}} My thoughts are best summarized in that one essay I wrote for the character proposal<!--which I wrote completely during a car ride-->; if we trim ''Smash'' content to just Mario stuff in some areas, we should trim it that much in all areas.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per all.
#{{User|Axis}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer and others
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} On a Mario Wiki, we should keep the Smash content relevant to Mario.
#{{User|Mario}} Should be in the same way the [[Taunt]] page is now.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per all.


====Oppose====
====Do nothing====
#{{User|Swallow}} I think a better idea would be just to list those in the relevant articles rather than creating a whole new page for it.
#{{User|Super Game Gear}} Per Swallow.
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} "''Oh no, not again!''" to quote [[Ashley]]. Also per all.
#{{User|Sparks}} I understand your idea for the networks, but there may not be that many to warrant a category for them. Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Swallow--while this isn't ''useless'' information, it almost definitely doesn't need to have a whole article to itself <small>(we're ignoring the idea of making YouTube it's own disambiguation page in this proposal because it is way out-of-scope for "just the DiC Mario cartoons")</small>. Just expand the "Distributor(s)" section of the infobox, within reason of course (so like, don't put just straight-up "YouTube" in it.), and we don't think anyone would particularly bat an eye.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario}} Reminds me of your failed proposals in [[Talk:WildBrain]], [[Talk:Netflix]], [[Talk:YouTube]], [[Talk:Hulu (streaming service)]], [[Talk:Amazon Prime Video]], [[Talk:NCircle TV]], [[Talk:Jaroo]], and [[Talk:WildBrainTV]]. The information you want is too oddly specific and ultimately tangential to MarioWiki. If you want to keep a personal list, then probably do it on your userpage.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Biggestman}} "Here we go! Again? Again?" Again? Again? Again? Again? Again? You have already tried and failed very similar things through 8 DISTINCT TPPs, just give up. Per all.
#{{User|Arend}} While this isn't entirely useless (to be honest, it ''is'' a better idea than the eight different proposals about adding pages for the streaming services that could've easily been made into a single proposal (could be a BJAODN contender?)), I'm also not sure if it's entirely necessary for this wiki, either. I'd take up to Camwoodstock and Mario's suggestions if I were you.


====Comments====
====Comments====
@Mario: I don't necessarily think we need this article but I disagree with the notion that this information is too irrelevant to cover on the wiki. Couldn't it be seen as the equivalent of what consoles a game can be played on? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:06, January 6, 2024 (EST)
Relatedly, it's probably time we do something about [[List of Smash Taunt characters]] (perhaps a merge to the stage lists like what was done with the [[List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros.#Multi-Man mode enemies|Multi-Man enemy teams]]). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:45, June 19, 2024 (EDT)


@Arend: NGL, we already have a drafted proposal for a YouTube disambiguation page locked-and-loaded on our Notepad++. We're just waiting for the 28 day cooldown between proposals on the same topic to expire before actually, y'know, putting it to a vote. ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 12:43, January 10, 2024 (EST)
I'll be honest, I kinda think the Mario characters should ''also'' have this stuff moved to their profile & statistics sections. That feels more natural to me than making a page for something in Smash and then giving it incomplete coverage. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:07, June 19, 2024 (EDT)


===Create a navigation template for non-''Mario'' characters===
==Changes==
There are several characters documented on the Super Mario Wiki whom did not originate from the ''Mario'' universe, but rather an external series/franchise. These crossover characters range from [[Sonic|Sonic the Hedgehog]] (and others from the titular series), [[Link]], [[Kirby]], [[Mega Man]] and [[:Category:Third-party characters|more]]. Instead of having to scroll through a multi-paged category or searching and hoping they're here just to find one article, wouldn't it be more convenient for readers and editors to be able to access all of these characters via a neatly-organised navigation box?
===Include general game details on pages about remakes, and split "changes from the original" sections if necessary===
 
An issue I've noticed with MarioWiki's coverage of remakes is that it doesn't explain much about the games themselves separate from the original games. This really concerns [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)|''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' (Nintendo Switch)]], as its "Changes from the original game" section is very, ''very'' long (over three-quarters the page, by my count), while not really detailing anything about the game itself. I do understand the "once and only once" policy means that they shouldn't have to be exact duplicates of the original game's pages, but it also leaves the pages about remakes feeling somewhat barebones; if someone wants to learn about the ''TTYD'' remake in a general sense, should they have to go back to the original game's page to learn about it first and ''then'' go to the remake's page to dig through all the tiny changes to find out what's new?
The navbox could be sorted by either series of origin, their roles in their crossover appearances, or both. I think this would be a good idea because, as I said before, the only alternatives right now are to scroll through a giant category page or search the character's name in the search bar and hope for the best. If this proposal is approved, leave it to me to create the template; it would be my responsibility due to the idea originating from me.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|RetroNintendo2008}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Support====
#{{User|RetroNintendo2008}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Game Gear}} Sounds like a good idea.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal. There's no harm in voting now — redefining [[:Category:Third-party characters]] can happen in a later proposal.
#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} While the prototype sandbox version is a little rugged, actually improving the aesthetics and giving its character roster another skim is something that can be done in due time. Off the immediate top of our head, no thoughts just going, a lot of the comics characters could easily qualify, but things like that are better suited for ''after'' the template is voted into existence. What we've got so far, we think looks nice and is, above all else, easy to navigate--which, y'know, is a big thing for a navbox to do right.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Just realized I hadn't supported this yet.
#{{User|Arend}} Per all, btw
 
====Oppose====
 
====Comments====
Tangentially related, but we just took a look at the category linked in "more", and it's a ''doozy''. In addition to characters that are from external series altogether, such as say, [[Plok]], characters that are from games that happen to have been co-developed by non-Nintendo companies are also clumped in here. We'd guesstimate roughly half of this category is just stuff from either Smash or ''Super Mario RPG'', and while you can argue the former makes some sense to include, the latter absolutely shouldn't be here; especially seeing as we sure don't clump together every last ''Mario Party'' original character despite those being primarily by Hudson. If they really had to be included, the ''[[Wario Blast]]'' bosses are only included via their category being a subcategory--sure, we don't have a blanket "Super Mario RPG characters" category, but we feel like you could easily make one even if just for this. Why the hey is this not already the case for either partially or fully third-party games?  


More directly related, however, with the category in its current state, we're almost hesitant to vote on this... At all. Would we just have a section that's "Here's every original character to ''Super Mario RPG'' because Square Enix isn't Nintendo! This is a helpful navbox when you're looking for [[Dr. Wily]]." Yes? Then we don't want to even think about that navbox. Are we going to hopefully repair the category and use that as a basis for the navbox? Yes? Then we might be on-board. But until then, we literally don't feel like we can vote either way in good conscience because hopefully, now that we've brought it up, this category can get all its gunk fixed. <s>also sorry if we sound dismissive, we're not trying to be! we just want to make it clear this category is in a BAD state rn.</s> {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:01, January 4, 2024 (EST)
I imagine this policy stems from early in the wiki's history for games like ''[[Super Mario All-Stars]]'' or ''[[Super Mario Advance]]'', which makes sense, as those games are generally simple and don't need much explaining to get the gist of how they work (and the "changes" parts of those pages are generally much smaller). For games like the [[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)|''Super Mario RPG'']] or ''TTYD'' remakes, however, it's pretty difficult to understand what the games are like without referencing the original game's pages, and in turn that leaves coverage on the remakes feeling somewhat incomplete. I actually feel like the ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' page is a good example of how to handle this. It still lists differences from the original ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'', but also explains the game's contents in a standalone manner well. (Maybe adding the rest of the new items and course elements would help, but it at least has the full cast, vehicle selection, and course roster.)
:[[Talk:Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars#Original characters third-party categorization|I recently had a discussion]] with fellow user Juju1995 on how to handle the original characters of ''Super Mario RPG'' and ''Diddy Kong Racing'' for [[:Category:Third-party characters]]. We didn't come to any conclusion, however. Other than the idea to add subcategories I gave there, another possible solution to fixing Category:Third-party characters would be to tighten the definition to characters that are both not owned by Nintendo or its subsidiaries ''and'' come from a series also not owned by Nintendo or its subsidiaries. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 15:24, January 4, 2024 (EST)
::We feel like the requirements kinda need to be tightened, because in the current state the category is just ''flooded'' with Smash and ''SMRPG'' characters... And redirects to Mega Man's article as various forms he's taken on in the different spinoff series, just because of his Final Smash. (...Do any articles at all actually use these redirects? We might need to make a proposal on that.) ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 22:15, January 4, 2024 (EST)
:::You'd also have to apply the definition change to [[:Category:Third-party species]] and [[:Category:Third-party locations]], even though neither category is in quite as bad a state as the one for characters. The fact we even have more than one "third-party" category makes my idea about adding subcategories no longer viable. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 23:49, January 4, 2024 (EST)
:I understand that the category is currently in a higher priority as of now in terms of fixing, reorganization and whatnot. Therefore, wouldn't a navbox ''also'' be convient in that scenario too? It's obviously gonna take a while to fix the category, so users and readers currently have to just wait for the issue to be resolved for an easier method of finding this type of characters. As I said before, the navbox would be far more organized than how the category currently is. So, it wouldn't really make sense to not do it in many regards. {{User:NintendoFan08/sig}} 07:07, January 5, 2024 (EST)
::We suppose that makes sense, we just wanna make it abundantly clear that copy-pasting the category 1:1 for the navbox is a ''Terrible, Awful, No Good Idea™'', since... well, you've heard us gob about the state of the category for a bit now, we hopefully don't need to repeat ourselves. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 09:22, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:::You are correct, but the navbox obviously wouldn't include ''every'' article from the category. Firstly, any redirects wouldn't be included. Secondly, there are a few characters that wouldn't count as necessary (e.g. the ''Super Mario RPG'' characters arguably don't exactly count as third-party since they only appear in a ''Mario'' game). {{User:RetroNintendo2008/sig}} 10:00, January 5, 2024 (EST)
::::Touche, not including redirects is kind of a given, and odds are the ''SMRPG'' characters are not long for the category. We're still a little too concerned to vote one way or the other, seeing as we'd like to see a draft of what the template ''could'' look like before making any solid decisions, but this has our provisional approval now, now that that's been made clear. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 10:32, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::''"...we'd like to see a draft of what the template could look like before making any solid decisions..."'' If you do want me to do this, I'd happily make a proof-of-concept in my user sandbox page. {{User:RetroNintendo2008/sig}} 11:14, January 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::That'd work for us! {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 11:22, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::::I've finished making the navbox, and it can be viewed in my [[User:RetroNintendo2008/sandbox|sandbox]]! {{User:RetroNintendo2008/sig}} 13:13, January 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::::We like what we're seeing here! While there's a few characters that got missed in the absolute chaos that is the article in its current state--mostly characters that are only in various comics (pouring one out for my boy [[Plok]] right now and obligatory mention of the true Classics of Article that is [[Chuckie]])--there's ample time to remedy that and manually cross-check everything; hopefully once the category's pruned of all the ''SMRPG'' stuff and is easier to review, we can get to adding what was missed, but we definitely like the list we're seeing. We think it's a good sign that we're thinking of what else we can ''include'' for the sake of thoroughness, rather than asking what we need to ''remove'' for the sake of pruning extraneous characters that shouldn't have been added in the first place. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:03, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::Thank you for your feedback! I know the proof-of-concept isn't exactly the highest quality, and I am aware there are many characters I missed (keeping track of them all is harder than you think), but I'm glad it at least strengthened this proposal's chances of being approved! {{User:RetroNintendo2008/sig}} 06:01, January 6, 2024 (EST)
A silly question; we'd like to potentially release a proposal that ''would'' impact the Third-party characters category, albeit only in regards to articles that are present to it via redirects--specifically about the presence of many copious redirects to [[Mega Man]] just because of his Final Smash. Could we start that now, or should we wait for this proposal to conclude first? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 10:32, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:I see no problem with doing so. Go ahead! [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 11:49, January 5, 2024 (EST)


There seems to be a lot of talk about the third-party characters in this proposal for a non-Mario characters navigational template. However, I'd like to remind everyone that characters such as [[Link]], [[Bubbles (Clu Clu Land)|Bubbles]], [[Inkling]] and [[Villager]] are ''also'' non-Mario characters, being from ''The Legend of Zelda'', ''Clu Clu Land'', ''Splatoon'' and ''Animal Crossing'' respectively. Since only third-party characters are being discussed here, I thus have to ask if [[:Category:Characters from other Nintendo games]] will also be included on the navigation template, since they aren't Mario characters either. I have to assume as such because Nintendo characters like Link and Kirby ''are'' mentioned by the proposer, but ''no one else'' seems to talk about it!<br>I can imagine that the template would get subcategories like "Nintendo characters" and "Third-party characters" and then go from there, and then have an "Other" subcategory for the ''Smash Bros.'' character lists since these lists contain both Nintendo and third-party characters from ''Brawl'' onwards. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:02, January 6, 2024 (EST)
My proposal is essentially to have each remake page include general coverage of the game itself, rather than just a list of changes. From there, if each page is too long with general details and lists of changes included, then the list of changes can be split into a sub-page.
:Oh my goodness, you're right! My apologies, I was completely unaware of this category until now. I also have to admit I completely forgot about characters such as Bubbles and more, so while I did account for characters such as Link, Kirby and Villager, it's even more obvious how many characters I overlooked. The prototype I made is merely a proof-of-concept and doesn't entirely reflect how the navbox will look if this proposal is approved. Therefore, I wasn't too worried about including ''every'' character in case it took too long or I made some inaccuracies. However, I may make a second revision to accompany for these additions just for the sake of convenience. {{User:RetroNintendo2008/sig}} 07:58, January 7, 2024 (EST)


I definitely see the reasoning behind sorting characters in the navbox by what ''Mario'' media they appear in, but the issue with that is that they can easily appear in multiple things. I see you have them listed in multiple places on the navbox, but I just feel like we're bound to end up with a bunch of duplicate entries. Do you think it would make more sense to categorize them by their source series, instead? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 13:32, January 7, 2024 (EST)
I don't think the remake pages need to be exact copies of what the pages for each original game say, but having them be a more general overview of how each game works (covering notable changes as well) before getting into the finer differences may be helpful. I represent WiKirby, and this is what we do for WiKirby's remake pages: for example, we have separate pages for ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land|Kirby's Return to Dream Land]]'' and ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe|Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe]]'' that both give a good idea of what the game is like without fully relying on each other to note differences between them. I think this is useful for not having to cross-reference both pages if you want to know the full picture of what the game is like.
:I can see how that makes sense. I did say above that I will make a second revision, so I will keep that in mind. {{User:RetroNintendo2008/sig}} 14:42, January 7, 2024 (EST)


==Removals==
This is my first proposal on this wiki, and in general I'm not good at proposals even on my "home" wiki, but I hope this explains what I mean. I think you can decide on a page-by-page basis whether "changes from the original" sections need to split into sub-pages (for instance, the very long ''TTYD'' section might, but something like ''Super Mario Advance'' could get by leaving it on), but I think having the remake's pages be more detailed and less reliant on the originals would only be beneficial to the quality of the wiki's coverage. This is admittedly just a suggestion, so if it's not ideal I'm fine if someone else wants to refine it into something more workable.
===Remove elemental creatures categories from various Super Mario RPG enemies===
A bit of an extension of [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Trim requirements for elemental creatures categories|this proposal]], but this time focusing solely on ''Super Mario RPG'' enemies and bosses. Lots of enemies in this game can use exact same spells such as [[Flame Wall]] and [[Water Blast]], which then leads to [[:Category:Fire creatures]] and [[:Category:Water creatures]] being added to every single article of enemies that use those attacks (this even leads to [[Czar Dragon]] being in Water creatures, and look at the amount of categories [[Valentina]] falls under). I still think this is taking these categories a bit too far and because these spells are shared between lot of different enemies I don't think they fit too well.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Swallow}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|DryKirby64}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': <s>June 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>Extended to June 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to July 1, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|Swallow}} Per proposal
#{{User|DryKirby64}} As proposer.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per Swallow. There are too many enemies that can do lots of elemental attacks, such as [[Czar Dragon]], a fire enemy that can do [[Water Blast]].
#{{User|Big Super Mario Fan}} I agree with this proposal.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Heh, the [[Earth Crystal|''Earth'' Crystal]] is an air and water creature... Per all.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} This is a great idea.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Now that you've pointed it out, we can't unsee it. How is [[Zombone]], the undead version of the fiery Czar Dragon, ''only'' an Air creature? This ought to have been done awhile back, frankly--per proposal.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} If Pokémon has taught us anything, it's that move attributes aren't necessarily indicative of monster types.
#{{User|Mario}} Just imagine if Mario and Pokemon had a crossover.
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Way too many elemental abilities per enemy, so going with Spark's vote. Imagine if those categorized enemies were airbenders, waterbenders, firebenders, et cetera, or even Avatars.


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I'm unsure what the best approach is to covering rereleases or remakes, but I do not think we should adopt WiKirby's model of repeating most of the same information as the original game.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Opposing this particular solution, but agreeing that a solution to inadequate remake pages should be found.
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per all.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} I don't think WiKirby is a good example -- of anything. I would be interested in something else to improve the remake pages though.


====Comments====
====Comments====
You think Valentina's bad? [[Exor]] falls under ''almost all'' of the elemental creature categories, only missing Category:Air creatures. Category:Water creatures isn't listed, but Exor's <s>Neosquid</s> Mouth can use [[Water Blast]]. Yeah, that's excessive. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 16:09, January 6, 2024 (EST)
This is challenging. Whereas I agree with you that the TTYD remake page is basically just a list of changes (and that is something that should be addressed), I don't think that simply rewording most everything on the original TTYD page is the solution. When it comes to RPGs, its much more challenging to fully cover everything in the game because there's a long, detailed story and it would be senseless to reword what is on the original's page to include it on the remake's page. I presume that's what you mean by "general coverage of the game" anyway. This is a problem that should be addressed, but I don't know that either of these two options are the right solution. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 18:51, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
:Mmhm, that makes sense. Like I said, I don't think it should be an exact duplicate of the original page or a paraphrase of it either... Maybe there's a place where I could discuss this with other users to get a better idea of what others think should be done? I went to proposals first since that's what I'm most familiar with, but maybe it would be helpful to iron out the exact issue a bit more to get a better idea of what to do. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 19:21, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
::It couldn't hurt to ask for some guidance from staff on the Discord / forums or research previous proposals to see if something similar has been discussed. You're right to identify this as an issue; I just wish I knew a better solution. Maybe someone will come along with a helpful comment, so I'd at least recommend leaving this proposal up to bring attention to the issue. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 19:28, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::Me personally, I'd repeat gameplay information because that's the thing that's actually changed, whereas story isn't touched at all afaik. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:52, June 16, 2024 (EDT)


===Cull categories from or delete the various Mega Legends & Mega Man moveset redirects===
I think the case-by-case way we do it is fine. For instance, the SMA games and DKC remakes have enough changes both major and minor it makes the most sense to just list everything out again, which in the latters' case we do (thanks to a project of mine). But listing everything in ''Super Mario 3D All-Stars'' would be over-the-top when that's just a fidelity increase for ''three'' games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:34, June 13, 2024 (EDT)
[[File:SSBU Mega Legends.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Pictured: Mega Man, and 6 redirects to him.]]
Full disclosure, we made this with the approval of the person currently running a proposal about the Third-party characters category. If this is an overstep for whatever reason, we can cancel this and launch it later on.


This concerns the following redirects:
In my eyes, the change list for ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' is very massive, despite my occasional efforts to subcategorize its change list. I could continue to try to compress that page's list, but even I would not call that a gold standard for "Remake changes" lists. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 17:00, June 15, 2024 (EDT)
* [[Proto Man]]
* [[Bass]]
* [[Mega Man X]]
* [[MegaMan.EXE]]
* [[MegaMan Volnutt]]
* [[Star Force Mega Man]]
* [[Rush]]
* [[Beat (Mega Man)]]


And concerns the following categories:
Just as someone who does go on other wikis to read up about remake information, I actually sometimes don't mind somewhat overlapping information than simply a list of changes (I don't like to hop back in between articles to read up information, especially if, say, the remake is the first time I'm ever experiencing the game). It's the reason I did sorta go all in in [[Mario Sports Superstars]] article (I wouldn't want to jump to two different pages to read mechanics about tennis and golf). I think a very brief summary of the gameplay for TTYD remake would do fine (basic battle system, hammers, jump, partners, that type of thing). {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:50, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
* [[:Category:Third-party characters]]
* [[:Category:Robots]]
* [[:Category:Mega Man series]]
* [[:Category:Super Smash Bros. for Wii U trophies]]
* [[:Category:Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS trophies]]
* [[:Category:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate spirits]]


All of these redirects exist to lead back to one spot--[[Mega Man]]'s final smash. MegaMan.EXE, Volnutt, and Star Force Mega Man are all entirely identical category wise; Mega Man series, Third-party characters, Smash 4 3DS and Smash 4 Wii U trophies, and Smash Ultimate spirits. And then Mega Man X is in all of those, and ''also'' in Robots. Protoman and Bass lack the 3DS trophy category, but have the Robots category. Rush and Beat are also part of the custom special moves categories, and robots, and the rest.
Just for reference, the current size of the ''TTYD'' remake page is actually larger than the size of the original page (190,141 bytes vs. 185,302 bytes). {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 23:45, June 20, 2024 (EDT)


We'd get these redirects being in these categories if any of these guys had appeared in a comic or cartoon relevant to Mario like Mega Man himself did, but as far as we can tell, none of them do; they're exclusive to either Mega Man's final smash, or his Up+B move--and poor Proto Man and Bass only get to be there for Ultimate, while Beat, bless his robot bird heart, he's only here for a ''custom'' move in Smash 4! The result is that a few of these aforementioned categories just kind of get clogged with needless Mega Man's final smash or Up+B redirects--in a few cases, some of these are literally right next to one another alphabetically!
===Split ''Wario Land: Shake It!'' bosses into boss levels===
This proposal is similar to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/41#Create separate articles for DKC series and DKL series boss levels|the one that passed]]. As you see, we have [[Motley Bossblob]] and [[Hisstocrat]] boss levels from ''[[Super Mario 3D World]]'', the boss levels from the [[Donkey Kong Country (series)|''Donkey Kong Country'' series]], even boss levels ''[[Yoshi's Crafted World]]'' where each boss guards a [[Dream Gem]]. Right now, you might be wondering how we can create separate articles for the ''[[Wario Land: Shake It!]]'' boss levels.


Now, we do acknowledge a counterpoint that we have categories for Smash 4 custom special moves, as well as Smash 4 trophies and Smash Ultimate spirits. This is way out of the scope of this proposal, but while we feel as though the trophies categories are largely redundant nowadays since we've been gradually scaling back Smash coverage to things that aren't related to the Mario series, we understand those categories ''do'' still currently exist, and they have trophies and spirits; those inclusions do make sense. In addition, in Rush and Beat's case, we understand their presence in [[:Category:Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U special moves]] entirely--they exist entirely to be the focal point of the move, and the move with Beat is literally named after him. But um... Look, we're going to be real here; outside of them being in those categories, which seem to be outdated as-is as our [[List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U|trophy li]][[List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS|st articles]] have culled any non-Mario trophies, we can't think of any other compelling category to put these guys in. Though, since they ''are'' reasonable to put them in, we have an option to retain those categories for the time being.
According to the "<boss> → <boss level>" diagram, the following pages will be affected by the split:


Now, while putting these things in categories is ''beyond'' us, we can understand keeping the redirects themselves for the sake of the Wiki search function--there's likely someone out there who's been getting to Mega Man's final smash by simply searching one of Mega Man's variants (or Proto Man and Bass), and Rush and Beat are valid names for Mega Man's Up-B in Smash. But having these all fully categorized feels... a ''little'' overkill, right?
*[[Rollanratl]] → [[Rollanratl Battle]]
*[[Hot Roderick]] → [[Hot Roderick Race]]
*[[Chortlebot]] → [[Chortlebot Challenge]]
*[[Bloomsday]] → [[Bloomsday Blowout]]
*[[Large Fry]] → [[Large Fry Cook-Off]]
*[[Shake King]] → [[VS the Shake King]]


And even worse, and our ultimate point here; having all these redirects in these categories where they don't really fit in causes certain categories to decay heavily in usability. Yeah, this is mostly about [[:Category:Third-party characters]], but also the [[:Category:Robots]] category get rather gunked up because of this. Which is pretty silly when Mega Man himself is in both of those categories! So, there's a few options we can understand taking:
Once this proposal passes, then we will be able to create separate articles for the ''Wario Land: Shake It!'' boss levels.
* '''Remove all categories period, keep the redirects:''' This would effectively leave the redirects solely to catch searches. We feel this may be extreme in the case of Rush and Beat's cases, but we understand. We didn't bring it up, but the [[:Category:Mega Man series]] category is related to his Smash appearances, so those would ''also'' vanish. We refuse to comment further on the state of that category, this proposal is long enough, but uh... It's a thing, alright.
* '''Remove the Third-party characters and Robots categories, keep the trophy/spirit/custom move/Mega Man series categories and keep the redirects:''' Like the above, but we leave an exception for the explicitly Smash-related categories.
* '''Remove all categories ''and'' remove the redirects:''' The full-on nuclear option. DELETE EVERYTHING!!! This feels a little extreme, especially in Rush and Beat's case, but we figure it's worth acknowledging it.
* '''Do nothing:''' We'll just... Keep every category as they are. We don't really like this, considering Mega Man is currently linked to ''9 times'' in the Third-party characters and Robots categories (once for his actual article and 8 redirects), but hey, we are required to have this as an option, so we're not going to decline it just because we dislike it.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}} (banned)<br>
'''Deadline''': January 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': <s>June 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to July 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Remove all categories, retain the redirects====
====Support====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Our secondary choice, but this definitely feels like a rather nuclear option (somehow even moreso than the "delete the redirects" one!).
#{{User|Hewer}} I guess this makes sense for consistency with coverage of other games, so per proposal.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} <s>Per proposal.</s> Secondary choice.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I don't think this should even have to go through a proposal. All the other boss levels have their own pages.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per proposal; it makes navigation easier and lines up with how we already handle it for other games. (And for the record, short articles are fine: see [[Bowser's Sourpuss Bread]], which succinctly explains its role rather than being padded out for length concerns.)
<s>#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal</s>


====Remove the Third-party characters and Robots categories, retain the redirects and Smash categories====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} This is our primary choice, if we haven't made it clear. We do see the value in retaining those categories while they still exist in their current states, and removing them would only make sense if we began pruning Smash-related categories--not exactly unlikely, but definitely not right now, and way out of the scope of this proposal. But the Third-party characters and Robots categories should've been pruned long ago if you ask us; There's literally 8 redirects to Mega Man in these categories at the moment. Besides, even if it is ''true'' that Beat is a robot, that's not exactly ''helpful'' information when his only Mario presence is as a custom special move.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, seeing as Mega Man already being in the categories makes the bunch of redirects a little redundant.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Primary choice.
 
====Delete redirects wholesale====
 
====Do nothing====


====Comments====
====Comments====
I'd move to pruning the Smash Bros redirects in categories such as [[:Category:Pokémon series]]. It'll probably happen sooner or later but worth thinking about. {{User:Mario/sig}} 12:31, January 5, 2024 (EST)
Wouldn't this be creating a bunch of stub articles? Is there sufficient information for all of these characters outside of their battles to warrant separate pages from their battles? For some bosses, I think this makes sense and I also think its good for the wiki to be consistent, but are we solving one "problem" and then creating twelve more by making twelve stub articles? {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 22:16, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
:I agree, we need to get rid of all non-''Super Mario'' content in ''Super Smash Bros.'' [[User:Super Game Gear|Super Game Gear]] ([[User talk:Super Game Gear|talk]]) 12:34, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:Looking at "[[Special:ShortPages|Short Pages]], when it isn't being filled with small disambiguation articles, articles with imminent deletions, or ''[[Mario Kart Arcade GP]]'' items, even the shortest Wario articles don't really come close to the articles featured here. The shortest Wario-related article we could find isn't even as short as the recently-split ''[[Speed Mario Bros.]]''. While we aren't personally voting (we'd like to see an example draft of what the split articles look like before voting conclusively), we don't feel like article length is a particularly strong reason to be afraid when [[Pesky Billboard]] is an article so small that you could fit its textual content in a floppy disk's boot sector. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 23:46, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
::Don't get carried away. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:45, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:Also, "stub" doesn't mean "short page", it means "page with too little information". If there's not a lot to talk about, then it's perfectly fine for a page to be short and still be complete, so brevity doesn't automatically make it a stub. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:11, June 20, 2024 (EDT)
:::''sharpens axe'' 🪓 I'm still looking at those bloated list pages with red in my eyes. {{User:Mario/sig}} 12:53, January 5, 2024 (EST)
::::Not to derail the discussion, but I still think we should merge those list pages on a per-game basis rather than covering the entire series, like I have partially done with the page for the original ''[[Super Smash Bros.]]''. That way, it covers their existence and basics without needing to go into detail. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:03, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::Yeah, your idea seems okay. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:16, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:We saw that, and it's a '''''nightmare'''''. We explicitly want to save that for a future proposal, since it's way out of the scope for this proposal (which, believe us, we just made originally for Third-party characters before a category-themed rabbit hole dropped us inside it and we had to climb out of it), but in the meantime, let's play a game; how many times does [[:Category:Mega Man series]] redirect you to [[Mega Man]] after several distinct article merges? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:38, January 5, 2024 (EST)
::I counted 28. '''''Twenty-eight.''''' <small>(29 if you count the [[Charge Shot]] disambiguation page.)</small> That's as many pages as most Robot Masters have hit points. Also, why do we even have redirects for Elec Man's Thunder Beam and Zero's techniques? Elec Man and Zero are not playable characters but Assist Trophies, which don't even have individual pages anymore. We also don't have redirects for moves used by non-playable Pokémon like Eevee's Take Down (nor do we ''need'' them), and I highly doubt anyone would be looking for these moves on this wiki. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 14:57, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:::We initially counted ''29'' (not even including Charge Shot!), which we think is terrifying that we somehow came out with different answers (the culprit was Thunder Beam, we forgot Elec Man was an assist trophy, probably because he isn't even in this category. Poor guy.). We think the only reason redirects like the special weapons even exist is just because of legacy--awhile back (and we mean ''awhile'' back, like, pre-Smash Ultimate), Smash moves were split into their own articles. They've somehow never been questioned until right now. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:27, January 5, 2024 (EST)
::::That's true for the Special Weapons Mega Man uses, yes, but the redirects for Thunder Beam and Zero's techniques were created pretty recently — September 24, 2023, to be exact. We had long since merged the Assist Trophy summons to the Assist Trophy page. '''EDIT:''' I discovered redirects for many other named Assist Trophy moves, also created on September 24, 2023. I don't know why we should have redirects for them but not the non-playable Pokémon's moves — or better yet, why we need them at all. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 15:47, January 5, 2024 (EST)
I noticed you put [[:Category:Super Smash Bros. for Wii U trophies]] a second time instead of [[:Category:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate spirits]]. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 12:44, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:Oops! Our bad. That's been fixed now. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:38, January 5, 2024 (EST)
 
==Changes==
===Delete [[Template:LM portrait infobox]]===
Okay, so I'm really not a fan of infoboxes that are solely focused on one game, considering how we had the ''Super Mario RPG'' bestiary infoboxes, but when the remake was announced, those suddenly had to be done away with. The 3DS version of Luigi's Mansion is faithful to the original, so there isn't as much infobox clutter, but its purpose, if anything, feels similar to those vertical bestiary infoboxes, like the ''Super Mario RPG'' ones that had to be done away with.


If this passes, all instances of the portrait ghost infobox will be replaced with the standard character infobox. My idea is that we convert it into a horizontal infobox (which should be fine, considering pages like [[Gobblegut#Statistics|Gobblegut]] do this), but I'll also leave an option for those who want to vote for its deletion entirely.
===Standardize sectioning for ''Super Mario'' series game articles===
I have been attempting to standardize the game articles for the ''[[Super Mario (series)|Super Mario]]'' series on and off for the past few years. I think presenting information in a shared, unified way is beneficial for readers and passively communicates that these games are part of a shared series, something I think is helpful for a franchise covering so many genres and series. Game articles in the ''[[Yoshi's Island (series)|Yoshi's Island]]'' and ''[[Donkey Kong Country (series)|Donkey Kong Country]]'' series are similarly organized to one another. It is easy to jump from one article to another, information is where I'd expect it to be, and they look nice. Good stuff.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Game Gear}}<br>
At present, some ''Super Mario'' game articles adopt different organizational structures than others even though they cover the same types of subjects. (As examples, compare ''[[Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins]]'' to ''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]'' and ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]''.) This proposal aims to standardize how they are all sectioned. I think it would be beneficial for their contents.
'''Deadline''': January 9, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Delete the template====
The sectioning I employ, in the order as laid out, is:
<s>#{{User|Super Game Gear}}: Per my reasons above.</s>


====Convert into horizontal infobox====
'''Characters''': living/sapient/friendly/neutral subjects that do not cause harm
#{{user|Super Game Gear}}: Actually, this option is preferable over deleting it outright.
* '''Playable characters''': characters controlled
* '''Non-playable characters''': characters that aren’t controlled
'''Enemies and obstacles''': subjects that damage or inhibit the player character
* '''Enemies''': living, often multi-membered creatures that occupy the general environment
* '''Obstacles''': abiotic and environmental subjects that cause damage or inhibit movement
* '''Bosses''': subjects that often take multiple hits to defeat and are chiefly major barriers to progression
'''Items and objects''': beneficial and neutral environmental subjects, mostly abiotic
* '''Items''': subjects that are absorbable/collectible, holdable, or health-restoring
* '''Power-ups''': items that transform the player character’s appearance and grant unique abilities
* '''Objects''': interactable subjects in the environment that are not items


====Leave as-is====
This sectioning arrangement has been integrated on the ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]'', ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels]]'', ''[[Super Mario Land]]'', ''[[Super Mario 64]]'', ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]'', ''[[Super Mario Galaxy]]'', ''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]'', ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]'', ''[[Super Mario 3D World]]'', and ''[[Super Mario Odyssey]]'' articles.
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't really get what the benefit is of removing an infobox designed to convey the information as efficiently as possible. The only argument given by the proposal is that an infobox specific to Super Mario RPG got removed, [[Template:DDRMM song infobox|des]][[Template:DK64 level infobox|pite]] [[Template:DKC level infobox|there]] [[Template:DKC3 world infobox|still]] [[Template:DKJB kingdom infobox|be]][[Template:DKR course infobox|ing]] [[Template:LM ghost infobox|sev]][[Template:LM room infobox|er]][[Template:M+RSOH battle infobox|al]] [[Template:M+RSOH planet infobox|other]] [[Template:M+RSOH quest infobox|game]] [[Template:M&L attack infobox|and]] [[Template:M&S event infobox|series]]-[[Template:M&S episode infobox|spe]][[Template:SSB fighter infobox|ci]][[Template:NSMB2 pack infobox|fic]] [[Template:MSM court infobox|in]][[Template:MKDD kart infobox|fo]][[Template:MGTT character infobox|box]][[Template:MPA quest infobox|es]] ([[:Category:Infobox templates|that wasn't even all of them]]). <s>Also, as an aside, if your plan is to change the design/layout of the infoboxes, why not just make that this proposal instead of needlessly splitting it up?</s>
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Hewer.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} - Per Hewer, especially on that last point; we'd get it if this was a general "convert game-specific infoboxes to horizontal templates, and then introduce more standardized infoboxes for these articles in the future" proposal, but to change only ''one'' of those infoboxes feels... A little silly, right?
#{{User|Swallow}} It is better than adding a lot of parameters to a standard infobox that would only be relevant to one game.
#{{User|Mario}} This infobox template is fine.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all; this template works just fine.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.


====Comments====
Because of the tactile nature of platformers, I like organizing subjects based on their mechanical relationship to the player character, so I keep bosses organized with enemies and obstacles because they all hurt the player. It is also thematically appropriate, because at least some bosses are usually rulers of an enemy species in the same section. I do not like using terms that have strong connotations outside of gaming like "cast" or "antagonist". (I particularly do not like using "antagonist" here because these platformers are not chiefly driven by narrative, so the fact that some bosses also serve antagonistic narrative roles is of lesser importance to their tactile roles as bosses.) "Characters" is more neutral, I think. I also do not separate "returning enemies" from "new ones". I'd rather delineate that information in one shared table, [[Super Mario Galaxy#Enemies|like so]]. It keeps related enemy species next to each other regardless of whether they're new.
You should make horizontalizing an option, then. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:49, January 2, 2024 (EST)
:I don't know how to do that, and even if we were to make something consistent across all 23 portrait ghosts (i.e. horizontal infobox in a statistics section), that would eliminate its purpose of being a vertical infobox. I'll let this proposal run its course, but would we still get consensus on converting the portrait ghost infobox into a horizontal infobox? [[User:Super Game Gear|Super Game Gear]] ([[User talk:Super Game Gear|talk]]) 12:31, January 3, 2024 (EST)
::As long as it's within three days of the proposal's creation, you can edit it to add another option in addition to the current support and oppose options. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:45, January 3, 2024 (EST)
:::Did I do it correctly? [[User:Super Game Gear|Super Game Gear]] ([[User talk:Super Game Gear|talk]]) 19:08, January 3, 2024 (EST)
::::Yep! {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:22, January 4, 2024 (EST)


===Rename the "List of <cartoon> episodes with <character>" articles to "History of <character> in <cartoon>" (and also, don't category-ify them)===
I don't envision this sectioning being applied rigidly, and this is apparent in some of the articles I linked to above. There aren't really enough items in ''Super Mario Land'' for them to be severed from power-ups, so I lumped them together in one table there. Both ''Super Mario Sunshine'' and ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' include a "rideable characters" section, and there is a "clothing" section between "Items" and "objects" in ''Super Mario Odyssey''. Rather, I would like this sectioning to be a jumping off point, from which users can manipulate and change things as needed. No two games are exactly the same, after all.
The following proposal covers the following articles:
*[[List of DIC cartoon episodes featuring Hip Koopa]]
*[[List of The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 episodes featuring Mario]]
*[[List of Super Mario World episodes featuring Mario]]
*[[List of Donkey Kong Country episodes featuring Donkey Kong]]
*[[List of Donkey Kong Country episodes featuring Candy Kong]]


Since categories have apparently become talk of the town, we thought we'd revisit a proposal we made ourselves. It's been over a month since [[Talk:List of DIC cartoon episodes featuring Hip Koopa|a proposal we created]] to convert the [[List of DIC cartoon episodes featuring Hip Koopa]] article (and later, a few others) to categories, and while the changes from the proposal haven't been implemented, but in the time since then, we've had second thoughts about that proposal in the first place. So, we thought we'd put it into a new proposal, seeing as we can't exactly withdraw a proposal that's technically already passed.
I offer four options.


Originally, the plan was to convert this article, as well as the aforementioned articles, into categories. But having looked at them now, we feel like we understand what they're trying to do better. In Hip Koopa's case, this was information already present elsewhere, but in the other articles' cases, this is actually split off from their History articles, and in Candy Kong's case, it's just split off from her article outright. We don't think a category cuts it for coverage anymore; especially since a merge to the pre-existing History articles, or in Candy Kong's case, to her article, would actually be ''more'' cumbersome than what we're doing. These were split off for a reason, mostly for the sake of size. People can get a general overview of, say, Mario in the DiC Cartoons in the [[History of Mario]] page, and then go to the subpages to learn about his role in every episode individually, since it'd otherwise take up too much space in the article. In the extreme case with poor Candy Kong, her article length would literally be doubled by a merge!
#'''Support: I like this! Let's do it''' (if this passes, this sectioning arrangement will be integrated into the remaining ''Super Mario'' game articles)
#'''Support: I like some of this, but I would lay out things a little differently''' (if this one passes, a second proposal would be raised by the voters that outline their preferred organizational scheme)
#'''Oppose: The sectioning seems fine, but I would rather we not adopt this as strict policy''' (this option is basically the "do nothing" option)
#'''Oppose: I do not like this sectioning at all, and want to see the articles where it's used changed'''


There's just three options this time, and hopefully, they're easier to understand too:
'''Proposer''': {{User|Nintendo101}}<br>
* '''Keep the articles, and rename to "History of <character> in <cartoon>":''' The change is simple enough--just rename the articles! These are already functionally history articles, which are only really "list" articles in the sense that they divide things up by episode; the only change would be to the name! And, you know, not saying that we're going to turn these into categories later.
'''Deadline''': July 3rd, 2024, 23:59 GMT
* '''Keep the articles, but keep the "List of" name:''' Alternatively, we could simply overturn the proposal to turn these into categories, but retain the current names they have. We don't see why you'd do that but then not rename, but to each their own, we suppose.
* '''Do nothing:''' The prior proposal will still need to be done in this case, seeing as this is to overturn a proposal that, while it passed, hasn't been enacted yet.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
====Support: I like this! Let's do it====
'''Deadline''': January 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Consistency is never a bad thing.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} I guess if this ought to be a proposal, then sure, per proposal.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per proposal


====Keep the articles, and rename to "History of <character> in <cartoon>"====
====Support: I like some of this, but I would lay out things a little differently====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We think we've made it clear this is our choice by now. These articles do have merit in existing as split articles, something we failed to see back then and have been kicking ourselves for (that's an exaggeration, but it's irked us!). However, we wish to address that naming misnomer, and hopefully clear up these articles' intent in the future; both to prevent stuff like this from happening again, but also to make it easier to find these articles for people who need them. It's a little silly how, as far as we've been able to find thus far, these are the ''only'' articles that go over a character's history, yet are named "List of".
#{{User|Hewer}} I still don't think it's really necessary to keep these split from the history sections/articles but I do see the argument for it and this is a better naming choice if that's what we're going with (and we should probably also make more of these articles for other characters if this passes).


====Keep the articles, but keep the "List of" name====
====Oppose: The sectioning seems fine, but I would rather we not adopt this as strict policy====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} If all else fails, while we dislike the "List of" name and feel it's a misnomer, we dislike the idea of these becoming categories and being merged even more now that we've had time to reflect. Especially now that we've seen other such problem categories; this has the potential to get out of hand, fast, and we'd like to nip it in the bud before it becomes a problem for some poor user in 2033.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - I see page layouts as an organically changing thing, it's best to not create guidelines where they needn't exist. I'm fine with the pages being changed to follow this pattern, but it shouldn't require an additional proposal to change further.
 
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per Doc von Schmeltwick.
====Do nothing (Proceed with categorization per previous TPP)====
#{{user|Ahemtoday}} I'm not really convinced by articles being longer — in my mind, if there are more things to cover in an article, then... yeah, it ''should'' get longer. This goes double for the History articles, which basically exist '''because''' they're huge — if they weren't, then they wouldn't be necessary; they'd just be part of the main article. And it seems silly to me to have the [[Mario]] article, which then splits off into [[History of Mario]], and then '''that''' splits off into {{fake link|History of Mario in ''The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3''}} and {{fake link|History of Mario in ''The Super Mario Bros. Super Show''}}. You'd need a dedicated proposal encompassing a lot more than just the cartoons to convince me we should do something like that.
#{{User|Hewer}} Can't decide whether this is my first or second option but per Ahemtoday (and if ''this'' option passes then we ought to expand the history sections/articles of other characters to also cover their roles in every episode).
#{{user|Okapii}} Per Ahemtoday.
 
====Comments====
Why not make categories anyway while still keeping the split articles? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:35, January 6, 2024 (EST)
:If there's enough demand, we could add that as an option; though personally we're worried about over-complicating this proposal as-is, when the original was already probably needlessly over-complicated in retrospect. ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:27, January 6, 2024 (EST)
::I feel like it might even be doable without a proposal, I just wanted to make clear that I don't think making categories and keeping the pages are mutually exclusive. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:57, January 6, 2024 (EST)


I think in the end we should just have a list of episodes they appear, plus perhaps a sentence or two of their roles in in a collapsible, similar to [[Koopa Paratroopa]] having these lists of levels they appear in. There's no need to provide exact summaries of their particular roles in these episodes. It works well enough for Yoshi, see [[History_of_Yoshi#Super_Mario_World_television_series]] which I think the list is presentable enough. Now, for characters like Mario, it's probably better to list what episodes he ''doesn't'' appear in or doesn't play a big role anyway, buuuuut I still don't think the split episode pages are useful even for Mario in the end. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:03, January 6, 2024 (EST)
====Oppose: I do not like this sectioning at all, and want to see the articles where it's used changed====


WTF, why do any of these pages exist? How many AOSMB3 episodes DON'T have Mario in them, or DKC episodes without DK? I don't think you need to do any restructuring or renaming of any of these, just '''delete''' them all. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 00:13, January 9, 2024 (EST)
====Comments on standardize sectioning for ''Super Mario'' series game articles====
:[[Talk:List of DIC cartoon episodes featuring Hip Koopa#Expand the scope of or nix the Hip Koopa filmography|See the previous proposal on them]]. Despite their names, the purpose of these articles isn't just to list episodes that the characters are in, it's to be like a history section explaining their roles in each episode. Hence why the aim of this proposal is to fix the misleading names. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:55, January 9, 2024 (EST)
These sound like good ideas, but do they need a proposal? Proposal rule 15: "Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages." {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:39, June 26, 2024 (EDT)
:I originally did not plan on doing so, but {{User|EvieMaybe}} recommended I raise one. I supposed it was a good way to assess how other folks think game articles should be organized. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:45, June 26, 2024 (EDT)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 01:26, June 28, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page

Current time:
Friday, June 28th, 11:18 GMT

Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • "Vote" periods last for one week.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  9. All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
  10. If a proposal with only two voting options has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail with a margin of at least three votes, otherwise the deadline will be extended for another week as if no majority was reached at all.
  11. Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
  12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  14. Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
  17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.


===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "June 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====


Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
  3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.
  5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Split Mario Kart Tour character variants into list articles, Tails777 (ended May 4, 2022)
Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)
Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki, Koopa con Carne (ended April 30, 2024)
Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Get rid of the "Subject origin" parameter on the species infobox, DrippingYellow (ended June 25, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
^ NOTE: Currently the subject of an active proposal.
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Split Mario's Time Machine (Nintendo Entertainment System), or the Super Nintendo Entertainment version along with both console versions of Mario is Missing!, LinkTheLefty (ended April 11, 2024)
Remove non-Super Mario content from Super Smash Bros. series challenges articles, BMfan08 (ended May 3, 2024)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

Trim the list of Snake's codec conversations and list of Palutena's Guidance conversations

This is something that stuck out to me while I was adding profiles to Samus's article. These articles, List of Snake's codec conversations and List of Palutena's Guidance conversations, include the conversations for every fighter in the Super Smash Bros. series, even all the non-Super Mario characters. About a year ago, a proposal to remove non-Super Mario trophies from the lists of trophies passed with no opposition, and most, if not all, of the points brought up in that proposal also apply here. You can read that proposal if you want to see the arguments in full, but to summarize for this proposal:

  • This content does not involve anything from Super Mario and its related franchises, it is purely flavor text about non-Mario characters spoken by non-Mario characters
  • We have a precedent for trimming non-Mario Smash content
  • Aside from the trivia, this content isn't original to this wiki, it's flavor text pulled straight from the game itself, and you would get the exact same content from just going to SmashWiki instead

With that in mind, I think the conversations for all non-Super Mario characters should be axed from these lists. The conversations for non-Mario characters that have their own articles, like Link and Samus, would still be included in their profiles/statistics along with their trophies, since I think the question of whether or not those should also be removed is best saved for a separate proposal.

Proposer: Dive Rocket Launcher (talk)
Deadline: June 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Trim the lists to only the conversations about characters from Super Mario and its related franchises

  1. Dive Rocket Launcher (talk) Per proposal.
  2. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Hewer (talk) My first instinct was to think of moving the non-Mario conversations to the sections for each fighter in the fighter lists, but seeing as we didn't do that with other things like their trophies, it's sadly pretty hard to justify keeping a ton of dialogue about non-Mario characters said by non-Mario characters in a non-Mario setting.
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. For every Guidance/Codec call for an actually relevant character, such as the infamous Viridi speech about Piranha Plants that has been outright cited in proposals that resulted in tangible splits or merges, there's Snake's thoughts on Fox McCloud. Take a guess which one we think should stay, and which one we think should probably just stick to being covered on SSBWiki instead.
  5. Somethingone (talk) My thoughts are best summarized in that one essay I wrote for the character proposal; if we trim Smash content to just Mario stuff in some areas, we should trim it that much in all areas.
  6. DrBaskerville (talk) Per all.
  7. Axis (talk) Per proposal.
  8. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposer and others
  9. SeanWheeler (talk) On a Mario Wiki, we should keep the Smash content relevant to Mario.
  10. Mario (talk) Should be in the same way the Taunt page is now.
  11. Nintendo101 (talk) Per all.

Do nothing

Comments

Relatedly, it's probably time we do something about List of Smash Taunt characters (perhaps a merge to the stage lists like what was done with the Multi-Man enemy teams). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:45, June 19, 2024 (EDT)

I'll be honest, I kinda think the Mario characters should also have this stuff moved to their profile & statistics sections. That feels more natural to me than making a page for something in Smash and then giving it incomplete coverage. Ahemtoday (talk) 19:07, June 19, 2024 (EDT)

Changes

Include general game details on pages about remakes, and split "changes from the original" sections if necessary

An issue I've noticed with MarioWiki's coverage of remakes is that it doesn't explain much about the games themselves separate from the original games. This really concerns Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), as its "Changes from the original game" section is very, very long (over three-quarters the page, by my count), while not really detailing anything about the game itself. I do understand the "once and only once" policy means that they shouldn't have to be exact duplicates of the original game's pages, but it also leaves the pages about remakes feeling somewhat barebones; if someone wants to learn about the TTYD remake in a general sense, should they have to go back to the original game's page to learn about it first and then go to the remake's page to dig through all the tiny changes to find out what's new?

I imagine this policy stems from early in the wiki's history for games like Super Mario All-Stars or Super Mario Advance, which makes sense, as those games are generally simple and don't need much explaining to get the gist of how they work (and the "changes" parts of those pages are generally much smaller). For games like the Super Mario RPG or TTYD remakes, however, it's pretty difficult to understand what the games are like without referencing the original game's pages, and in turn that leaves coverage on the remakes feeling somewhat incomplete. I actually feel like the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe page is a good example of how to handle this. It still lists differences from the original Mario Kart 8, but also explains the game's contents in a standalone manner well. (Maybe adding the rest of the new items and course elements would help, but it at least has the full cast, vehicle selection, and course roster.)

My proposal is essentially to have each remake page include general coverage of the game itself, rather than just a list of changes. From there, if each page is too long with general details and lists of changes included, then the list of changes can be split into a sub-page.

I don't think the remake pages need to be exact copies of what the pages for each original game say, but having them be a more general overview of how each game works (covering notable changes as well) before getting into the finer differences may be helpful. I represent WiKirby, and this is what we do for WiKirby's remake pages: for example, we have separate pages for Kirby's Return to Dream Land and Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe that both give a good idea of what the game is like without fully relying on each other to note differences between them. I think this is useful for not having to cross-reference both pages if you want to know the full picture of what the game is like.

This is my first proposal on this wiki, and in general I'm not good at proposals even on my "home" wiki, but I hope this explains what I mean. I think you can decide on a page-by-page basis whether "changes from the original" sections need to split into sub-pages (for instance, the very long TTYD section might, but something like Super Mario Advance could get by leaving it on), but I think having the remake's pages be more detailed and less reliant on the originals would only be beneficial to the quality of the wiki's coverage. This is admittedly just a suggestion, so if it's not ideal I'm fine if someone else wants to refine it into something more workable.

Proposer: DryKirby64 (talk)
Deadline: June 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to June 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to July 1, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. DryKirby64 (talk) As proposer.
  2. Big Super Mario Fan (talk) I agree with this proposal.
  3. Super Mario RPG (talk) This is a great idea.

Oppose

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) I'm unsure what the best approach is to covering rereleases or remakes, but I do not think we should adopt WiKirby's model of repeating most of the same information as the original game.
  2. DrBaskerville (talk) Opposing this particular solution, but agreeing that a solution to inadequate remake pages should be found.
  3. MegaBowser64 (talk) Per all.
  4. Scrooge200 (talk) I don't think WiKirby is a good example -- of anything. I would be interested in something else to improve the remake pages though.

Comments

This is challenging. Whereas I agree with you that the TTYD remake page is basically just a list of changes (and that is something that should be addressed), I don't think that simply rewording most everything on the original TTYD page is the solution. When it comes to RPGs, its much more challenging to fully cover everything in the game because there's a long, detailed story and it would be senseless to reword what is on the original's page to include it on the remake's page. I presume that's what you mean by "general coverage of the game" anyway. This is a problem that should be addressed, but I don't know that either of these two options are the right solution. Sprite of Toadsworth Dr. Baskerville Paper Mario Book- MLPJ.png 18:51, June 10, 2024 (EDT)

Mmhm, that makes sense. Like I said, I don't think it should be an exact duplicate of the original page or a paraphrase of it either... Maybe there's a place where I could discuss this with other users to get a better idea of what others think should be done? I went to proposals first since that's what I'm most familiar with, but maybe it would be helpful to iron out the exact issue a bit more to get a better idea of what to do. DryKirby64 (talk) 19:21, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
It couldn't hurt to ask for some guidance from staff on the Discord / forums or research previous proposals to see if something similar has been discussed. You're right to identify this as an issue; I just wish I knew a better solution. Maybe someone will come along with a helpful comment, so I'd at least recommend leaving this proposal up to bring attention to the issue. Sprite of Toadsworth Dr. Baskerville Paper Mario Book- MLPJ.png 19:28, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
Me personally, I'd repeat gameplay information because that's the thing that's actually changed, whereas story isn't touched at all afaik. BabyLuigiFire.png Ray Trace(T|C) 12:52, June 16, 2024 (EDT)

I think the case-by-case way we do it is fine. For instance, the SMA games and DKC remakes have enough changes both major and minor it makes the most sense to just list everything out again, which in the latters' case we do (thanks to a project of mine). But listing everything in Super Mario 3D All-Stars would be over-the-top when that's just a fidelity increase for three games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:34, June 13, 2024 (EDT)

In my eyes, the change list for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is very massive, despite my occasional efforts to subcategorize its change list. I could continue to try to compress that page's list, but even I would not call that a gold standard for "Remake changes" lists. DandelionSprout (talk) 17:00, June 15, 2024 (EDT)

Just as someone who does go on other wikis to read up about remake information, I actually sometimes don't mind somewhat overlapping information than simply a list of changes (I don't like to hop back in between articles to read up information, especially if, say, the remake is the first time I'm ever experiencing the game). It's the reason I did sorta go all in in Mario Sports Superstars article (I wouldn't want to jump to two different pages to read mechanics about tennis and golf). I think a very brief summary of the gameplay for TTYD remake would do fine (basic battle system, hammers, jump, partners, that type of thing). BabyLuigiFire.png Ray Trace(T|C) 12:50, June 16, 2024 (EDT)

Just for reference, the current size of the TTYD remake page is actually larger than the size of the original page (190,141 bytes vs. 185,302 bytes). Scrooge200 (talk) PMCS Mustard Cafe Sign.png 23:45, June 20, 2024 (EDT)

Split Wario Land: Shake It! bosses into boss levels

This proposal is similar to the one that passed. As you see, we have Motley Bossblob and Hisstocrat boss levels from Super Mario 3D World, the boss levels from the Donkey Kong Country series, even boss levels Yoshi's Crafted World where each boss guards a Dream Gem. Right now, you might be wondering how we can create separate articles for the Wario Land: Shake It! boss levels.

According to the "<boss> → <boss level>" diagram, the following pages will be affected by the split:

Once this proposal passes, then we will be able to create separate articles for the Wario Land: Shake It! boss levels.

Proposer: GuntherBayBeee (talk) (banned)
Deadline: June 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to July 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Hewer (talk) I guess this makes sense for consistency with coverage of other games, so per proposal.
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) I don't think this should even have to go through a proposal. All the other boss levels have their own pages.
  3. Scrooge200 (talk) Per proposal; it makes navigation easier and lines up with how we already handle it for other games. (And for the record, short articles are fine: see Bowser's Sourpuss Bread, which succinctly explains its role rather than being padded out for length concerns.)

#GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per proposal

Oppose

Comments

Wouldn't this be creating a bunch of stub articles? Is there sufficient information for all of these characters outside of their battles to warrant separate pages from their battles? For some bosses, I think this makes sense and I also think its good for the wiki to be consistent, but are we solving one "problem" and then creating twelve more by making twelve stub articles? Sprite of Toadsworth Dr. Baskerville Paper Mario Book- MLPJ.png 22:16, June 19, 2024 (EDT)

Looking at "Short Pages, when it isn't being filled with small disambiguation articles, articles with imminent deletions, or Mario Kart Arcade GP items, even the shortest Wario articles don't really come close to the articles featured here. The shortest Wario-related article we could find isn't even as short as the recently-split Speed Mario Bros.. While we aren't personally voting (we'd like to see an example draft of what the split articles look like before voting conclusively), we don't feel like article length is a particularly strong reason to be afraid when Pesky Billboard is an article so small that you could fit its textual content in a floppy disk's boot sector. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 23:46, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
Also, "stub" doesn't mean "short page", it means "page with too little information". If there's not a lot to talk about, then it's perfectly fine for a page to be short and still be complete, so brevity doesn't automatically make it a stub. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:11, June 20, 2024 (EDT)

Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles

I have been attempting to standardize the game articles for the Super Mario series on and off for the past few years. I think presenting information in a shared, unified way is beneficial for readers and passively communicates that these games are part of a shared series, something I think is helpful for a franchise covering so many genres and series. Game articles in the Yoshi's Island and Donkey Kong Country series are similarly organized to one another. It is easy to jump from one article to another, information is where I'd expect it to be, and they look nice. Good stuff.

At present, some Super Mario game articles adopt different organizational structures than others even though they cover the same types of subjects. (As examples, compare Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins to New Super Mario Bros. U and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.) This proposal aims to standardize how they are all sectioned. I think it would be beneficial for their contents.

The sectioning I employ, in the order as laid out, is:

Characters: living/sapient/friendly/neutral subjects that do not cause harm

  • Playable characters: characters controlled
  • Non-playable characters: characters that aren’t controlled

Enemies and obstacles: subjects that damage or inhibit the player character

  • Enemies: living, often multi-membered creatures that occupy the general environment
  • Obstacles: abiotic and environmental subjects that cause damage or inhibit movement
  • Bosses: subjects that often take multiple hits to defeat and are chiefly major barriers to progression

Items and objects: beneficial and neutral environmental subjects, mostly abiotic

  • Items: subjects that are absorbable/collectible, holdable, or health-restoring
  • Power-ups: items that transform the player character’s appearance and grant unique abilities
  • Objects: interactable subjects in the environment that are not items

This sectioning arrangement has been integrated on the Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels, Super Mario Land, Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Super Mario 3D Land, Super Mario 3D World, and Super Mario Odyssey articles.

Because of the tactile nature of platformers, I like organizing subjects based on their mechanical relationship to the player character, so I keep bosses organized with enemies and obstacles because they all hurt the player. It is also thematically appropriate, because at least some bosses are usually rulers of an enemy species in the same section. I do not like using terms that have strong connotations outside of gaming like "cast" or "antagonist". (I particularly do not like using "antagonist" here because these platformers are not chiefly driven by narrative, so the fact that some bosses also serve antagonistic narrative roles is of lesser importance to their tactile roles as bosses.) "Characters" is more neutral, I think. I also do not separate "returning enemies" from "new ones". I'd rather delineate that information in one shared table, like so. It keeps related enemy species next to each other regardless of whether they're new.

I don't envision this sectioning being applied rigidly, and this is apparent in some of the articles I linked to above. There aren't really enough items in Super Mario Land for them to be severed from power-ups, so I lumped them together in one table there. Both Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy 2 include a "rideable characters" section, and there is a "clothing" section between "Items" and "objects" in Super Mario Odyssey. Rather, I would like this sectioning to be a jumping off point, from which users can manipulate and change things as needed. No two games are exactly the same, after all.

I offer four options.

  1. Support: I like this! Let's do it (if this passes, this sectioning arrangement will be integrated into the remaining Super Mario game articles)
  2. Support: I like some of this, but I would lay out things a little differently (if this one passes, a second proposal would be raised by the voters that outline their preferred organizational scheme)
  3. Oppose: The sectioning seems fine, but I would rather we not adopt this as strict policy (this option is basically the "do nothing" option)
  4. Oppose: I do not like this sectioning at all, and want to see the articles where it's used changed

Proposer: Nintendo101 (talk)
Deadline: July 3rd, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support: I like this! Let's do it

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) Consistency is never a bad thing.
  3. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
  4. Hewer (talk) I guess if this ought to be a proposal, then sure, per proposal.
  5. EvieMaybe (talk) per proposal

Support: I like some of this, but I would lay out things a little differently

Oppose: The sectioning seems fine, but I would rather we not adopt this as strict policy

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - I see page layouts as an organically changing thing, it's best to not create guidelines where they needn't exist. I'm fine with the pages being changed to follow this pattern, but it shouldn't require an additional proposal to change further.
  2. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per Doc von Schmeltwick.

Oppose: I do not like this sectioning at all, and want to see the articles where it's used changed

Comments on standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles

These sound like good ideas, but do they need a proposal? Proposal rule 15: "Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages." Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:39, June 26, 2024 (EDT)

I originally did not plan on doing so, but EvieMaybe (talk) recommended I raise one. I supposed it was a good way to assess how other folks think game articles should be organized. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:45, June 26, 2024 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.