MarioWiki:Proposals

Current time: Thursday, November 21st, 20:47 GMT

Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken. Voting periods last for two weeks. Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!"). All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options. For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
2. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. While only autoconfirmed users can comment on proposals, anyone is free to comment on talk page proposals.
3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
   • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
4. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
5. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
6. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
   • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
7. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
8. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
9. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use the {{proposal check}} tool to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
12. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks (at the earliest).
13. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
14. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
15. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first six days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
16. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
17. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
18. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
19. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

---

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 14 days after the proposal was created, at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "November 21, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

---

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}.
2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as for proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by the additional rules below:
3. The talk page proposal must pertain to the subject page of the talk page it is posted on.
4. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

• Decide whether to create articles for Ashita ni Nattara and Banana Tengoku and/or include them on List of Donkey Kong Country (television series) songs (discuss) Deadline: November 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Determine how to handle the Tattle Log images from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch) (discuss) Deadline: November 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Merge False Character and the Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams to List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses (discuss) Deadline: December 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)

Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)

^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles, Super Mario Run, and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.

Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)

Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)

Use the classic and classic-link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)

Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 3, 2024)

Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)

Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)

Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)

Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)

Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)

^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)

Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)

Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)

Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)

Split Banana Peel from Banana, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2024)

Merge Spiked Thwomp with Thwomp, Blinker (ended November 2, 2024)

Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)

Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)

Writing guidelines

Determine a minimum number of glitches in a game to warrant a separate list article

I've noticed some strange discrepancies regarding how glitches are handled when a game has only 3 or 4 of them documented here. Wario Land 4 has a separate article for its 3 glitches (List of Wario Land 4 glitches), but every other game with 3 glitches simply has those glitches merged with the game's page. Specifically, Mario vs. Donkey Kong, Super Mario Strikers, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), and, most glaringly, Wario Land 3 have sections for glitches rather than separate lists.

More complicated is figuring out how to deal with games with 4 glitches. Of the 6 games with 4 documented glitches:

• 4 of them have glitches merged into the main article: Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2, Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze, Donkey Kong Land, Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle
• 2 of them have separate "List of glitches" articles: Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem!, Super Mario Advance

I put forward this proposal to determine a minimum number of glitches for the creation of "List of glitches" articles. That way, there is consistency between games with the same number of documented glitches. Additionally, if new glitches are documented later that brings the total number over this minimum, a new page can easily be created without the need for a proposal, as the editor can cite this proposal.

Option 1

The minimum number of glitches should be 3. "List of glitches" pages would be created for Mario vs. Donkey Kong, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), and Wario Land 3 to match that of Wario Land 4.

Option 2

The minimum number of glitches should be 4. List of Wario Land 4 glitches would be deleted and its glitches merged into the main game's article. "List of glitches" pages would be created for Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2, Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze, Donkey Kong Land, and Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle.

Option 3

The minimum number of glitches should be 5. List of Wario Land 4 glitches, List of Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem! glitches, and List of Super Mario Advance glitches would be deleted, with the glitches merged into each game's main article.

Do nothing

There should be no concrete minimum, and whether glitches should be split or not should be discussed on a game-by-game basis.

I could continue with 6, 7, etc., but I feel once this point is reached there is enough to warrant separate "List of glitches" articles, especially since game articles are typically long and images are usually needed to showcase glitches, taking up more space.

Proposer: Technetium (talk)
Deadline: August 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Option 2

1. Technetium (talk) Second choice.

Option 3

1. Technetium (talk) First choice. I am a bit torn between Options 2 and 3, but I prefer this one as I feel 4 glitches can easily fit on a game's page, as seen with the examples above.
2. Hewer (talk) I don't particularly mind what the minimum number of glitches is, but I agree that there should be a minimum in order to have some more consistency, and a smaller minimum may cause unnecessary splits of small glitch lists, so I'll go for this option.
3. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all.
4. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
5. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) Per all. (I really love glitches, so I'm glad this is being settled.)

Comments

From what I can tell, articles on this wiki are usually split based on size, not the number of headings. It's why List of Fortune Street quotes is split into Dragon Quest characters (A-J / K-Z) and Super Mario characters (A-M / N-Z) and why the number of headings in these articles is inconsistent. I think it'd be weird to split lists of glitches based strictly on the number of sections rather than the amount of text since that could lead to very short articles that only list a few very minor glitches that can be described in just a few sentences. Dive Rocket Launcher 22:50, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah, I'm aware of that. It just feels different here because glitch descriptions tend to be around the same length. If you look at the examples I discussed in the proposal, you'll find there really isn't a noticeable size difference between the pages that have their glitches merged vs separate. Truth be told, I was originally going to just make a talk page proposal to merge List of Wario Land 4 glitches, but the discrepancies with the pages with 4 glitches led to me coming up with this. I'd be happy to hear anyone else's ideas on how to make things more consistent, because the way things are currently is frankly bugging me. --Technetium (talk) 23:02, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

New features

Add the Thanks extension

The Thanks extension is a way to personally thank a contributor without sending them a message directly. It's a kind gesture to show that you appreciate certain edits from someone, such as if they add more content to an article you made or fix grammatical errors. This saves the effort of having to manually message your appreciation if you wanted to give a quick Thanks to the user, though this proposal in no way seeks to replace that; it provides another option for thanking a user.

However, a requirement to installing Thanks is the Echo extension, which is used by Wikipedia, MediaWiki, and many other major wikis. The Echo extension had embedded features of its own, and it could get annoying for some if it gives a message for every 100, 200, 500, or so milestone edits that someone makes (even though it is possible that some may want to keep track of their milestones). Point is, if the Thanks extension is allowed, be wary of changes that the Echo extension would bring. The echo notification also replaces the new message box with a new messages notification at the top right of the screen. Perhaps it is possible to disable some of the default features of Echo, but the point is that this proposal is mainly about allowing Thanks.

On a sidenote, if this passes, the courtesy policy will be updated to prohibit spamming the use of it for consecutive edits made by a user or someone who personally does not wish to have their edits thanked.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: August 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Super Mario RPG (talk) As proposer.
2. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal.
3. Mario shroom (talk) As a Wikipedia editor, I support.
4. Ray Trace (talk) Greenlit by Steve, and I massively support this.
5. Sparks (talk) Yes! The element of kindness (AKA Fluttershy) in Mario Wiki form. I support! Per all.
6. Nintendo101 (talk) Wonderful idea.
7. YoYo (talk) sure, there's no harm in this
8. Mario (talk) Validation is always nice.

Comments

I've always wanted this for years now, but I feel this sort of thing requires at least confirming with Steve first. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:27, August 16, 2024 (EDT)

@Mario Maybe someone could ask him. Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:39, August 16, 2024 (EDT)

@Mario I asked on his talk page, and the proposal is allowed. Super Mario RPG (talk) 00:09, August 17, 2024 (EDT)

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Shorten disambiguation identifiers "(Super) Nintendo Entertainment System" to "(S)NES"

The console names "Nintendo Entertainment System" and "Super Nintendo Entertainment System" are way too long and clunky, so much so that the abbreviations "NES" and "SNES" are commonly used in the body of articles throughout the wiki, even though we usually don't use abbreviations. And yet, we still use the full console names in the disambiguation identifiers of article names:

• Mario is Missing! (Nintendo Entertainment System)
• Mario is Missing! (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)
• Wario's Woods (Nintendo Entertainment System)
• Wario's Woods (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)

The identifiers are so long that they take up more than half of the article name and are less immediately legible than their respective abbreviations. This is particularly jarring on the Mario is Missing! disambiguation page because the abbreviations are used on the page (e.g., "Mario is Missing!, the NES game") but it links to articles with names containing the full console names ("Mario is Missing! (Nintendo Entertainment System)").

That's why I propose to shorten "Nintendo Entertainment System" and "Super Nintendo Entertainment System" to "NES" and "SNES" respectively in disambiguation identifiers of article names:

• Mario is Missing! (NES)
• Mario is Missing! (SNES)
• Wario's Woods (NES)
• Wario's Woods (SNES)

Please note that there is already an article which uses an abbreviated identifier: "Building World (Mario's Early Years! Fun with Letters for SNES)", although if we decide to keep the full identifiers, maybe we should rename it to "Building World (Mario's Early Years! Fun with Letters for Super Nintendo Entertainment System)" for consistency?

Proposer: Jdtendo (talk)
Deadline: August 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support (SNES)

1. Jdtendo (talk) Per proposal.
2. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposal and similarly passed earlier proposal on shortening identifiers of the second and third Donkey Kong Country games.
3. Technetium (talk) Per all.
4. Mario shroom (talk) too long, agree.
5. SeanWheeler (talk) Let's simplify the names.

#Pseudo (talk) Per all.

Oppose (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)

1. Hewer (talk) I don't see much of a problem with long names, and I'd rather go without the inconsistency created by these being the only shortened console names. And yes, I suppose we should move the Building World page too, like how "Beach Volleyball (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games for 3DS)" got moved to "Beach Volleyball (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games for Nintendo 3DS)".
2. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Hewer. While these shortened versions do make for fine redirects (and honestly, I kinda hope these do get made for other games in the form of redirects, but that's neither here nor there), we probably shouldn't be enforcing these as being the default name unless it's a part of a global move to abbreviate the console names for the articles of every game--not just one random edutainment game.
3. JanMisali (talk) Per all.
4. Pseudo (talk) Per Hewer and Camwoodstock.
5. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.

Comments (Mario's Early Years! Fun with Letters for SNES)

now there's a bit of a grey area here, what about consoles like Nintendo 64, Nintendo Switch and so on? It'd feel somewhat weird to abbreviate one but not the others, there'd be an inconsistency. - YoYo (Talk) 09:33, August 13, 2024 (EDT)

The thing with those is that the "Nintendo" part is needed or else it could just be confused as a random number (64) or word (switch). They also just aren't as long. Technetium (talk) 09:57, August 13, 2024 (EDT)

Besides, as I said in the proposal, the abbreviations "NES" and "SNES" are commonly used in the body of articles, but other console names are not abbreviated as frequently. For example, here is an extract of the LodgeNet article: "for the SNES, Nintendo 64, and Nintendo GameCube"; note how only the Super Nintendo Entertainment System's name is abbreviated whereas the other console names are written in full. Jdtendo^(T|C) 10:09, August 13, 2024 (EDT)

I think the shortening of N64, GCN, GBA, etc. could use another propasal. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:30, August 13, 2024 (EDT)

@Hewer Okay, The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens' name is ridiculous. I want to propose a shortening of the title, but I don't know enough about the character. But that just shows why page names shouldn't be too long. SeanWheeler (talk) 20:27, August 14, 2024 (EDT)

...Not to burst your bubble, but we actually had a proposal to move it to its current name last month. Prior to that, the article was merely titled "The Old Psychic Lady", which from what I can tell was actually never actually used like that in the episode. She introduced herself by the full title of "The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens" (whether it used capital letters or not is unknown), and the Marios simply refer her to as the "crazy lady" or "that psycho lady" since they can't properly remember such a long name. Since "The Old Psychic Lady" never was used as one of the official names, and the wiki refers to her by her full name anyway, it was proposed to move the article to the lady's full title (I mean, at least "NES" and "SNES" are officially used abbreviations by Nintendo themselves and their full names were not created for comedic purposes). rend (talk) (edits) 20:50, August 14, 2024 (EDT)

Arguments about the name being "ridiculous" or "too long" were used in the proposal linked to by Arend, and much like with those arguments, you haven't substantiated the claim very well. Why is a long page name "ridiculous" when it's just accurately referring to the subject? Why should we sacrifice accuracy in favour of a shorter page name? What about long page names is in any way disadvantageous? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:37, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

Tbh, I'd merge the two Building Worlds together if it were up to me, they're still both represented by the same icon in the map screen and differences can easily be mentioned in the article, it'd also be consistent with the rest of the Mario's Early Years Worlds. Ray Trace^(T|C) 20:09, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

Allow more "History of" articles under two more conditions

This may be a small thing, but unlike the quotes, profiles, and even galleries, there is more restriction on which articles get to be split off into a History page. Please take note that proposal is not about amending the minimum number of bytes needed (150K) to split the History section of an article into its own page. It's about allowing more "History of" pages. The 150K guidelines already does not apply to splitting galleries, profiles, and quotes from the base article.

Should this proposal pass, more History pages would be allowed under the condition of the article either having a General information section with at least two subsections or the condition if there is a single section with a wikitable. This way, if a split were to occur, there's at least more information besides what is contained in the opening section. Luigi, Yoshi, Wario, Princess Peach, and other subjects with history pages all have something in common where their pages have well established General information sections, providing enough context about them, while the History page would serve as a comprehensive read on their individual appearances, which can be summarized on the main article. To me, it feels inconsistent that Wario and Bowser have their History pages split but not their respective partners, Waluigi and Bowser Jr., both of whom are recurring.

The reason I want to give exception if the section has a wikitable is because of the Barrel page, where the barrels section is tucked all the way at the bottom, below a long History section, so it cannot be seen immediately by readers, many of whom may not see the section otherwise.

If the article has been featured in the past (e.g. Chain Chomp), a different proposal would be required before splitting it, or some other democratic matter decided upon by the community (e.g. adding a talk template and overhauling the page in accordance to community input on the talk page).

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: August 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Super Mario RPG (talk) As proposer.

Oppose

1. Hewer (talk) These seem like very random metrics compared to the logical one of article size, especially since they're based on other sections of the article rather than the actual history section that's being split. History sections are split so that articles stay at reasonable sizes with reasonable loading times, not to aid presentation of the rest of the article. (Honestly I'd rather do less splitting of history sections since it scatters information a bit, but I understand it's a practicality issue to have such huge pages worsening loading times.) If someone who wants information on the subject doesn't look at the whole of the subject's article, that's not our problem - the information on a merged page is still conveyed well, and the "issue" of having to do some scrolling to find certain sections is solved by the contents list at the top of the article that lists the sections.
2. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) I'd honestly rather merge a lot of the split history pages back.
3. Nintendo101 (talk) per Nightwicked Bowser.
4. SeanWheeler (talk) These split history pages are longer than Waluigi's entire page. Waluigi doesn't need to split when his page isn't long enough.
5. TheUndescribableGhost (talk) Firstly, Bowser Jr. does have his own history page and secondly, I still think those pages are pretty easy to scroll through and find the information you want. This is actually the first time I learned that the article size has risen from 100kb, to 150kb, but regardless, that length makes much sense, because the articles could go on like novels at that point and the reasons for splitting articles is to make the pages load less. I'm all for more articles having their history pages split, but this is not the correct way to do it.

Comments

I'm a bit confused, what exactly is this proposal trying to change? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:49, August 16, 2024 (EDT)

I'll give an example of what's allowed if this proposal passes. For the first condition, Waluigi article has at least two sections under General information. With that, the ==History== section of Waluigi's article can be split into History of Waluigi. For the second condition, the Barrel page would split into History of barrels so that the "Types of barrels" (which qualifies as a subsection of "General information") is more accessible to the reader for its comprehensive wikitable. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:56, August 16, 2024 (EDT)

Require citations for names in other languages

Recently, the issue of confirming names in other languages has been discussed on the wiki's Discord server. Put simply, there is a high likelihood that many of these names are fake or otherwise inaccurate, and as an English wiki, the majority of the userbase is unable to independently verify the accuracy of these names. As such, I believe it should be made mandatory for every name listed in the names in other languages sections to have a citation attached to it. Yes, this will be very, VERY difficult to do considering the sheer number of pages that will need to be gone through, but I think it is better to address this problem now rather than later. More and more games and media will release the longer we wait, only adding more to the workload.

Note that for these citations, using text / quotes is just as valid as including a link or image. Unsourced names will also not be removed, but rather have the [citation needed] notice added.

Proposer: Technetium (talk)
Deadline: August 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Technetium (talk) As proposer. This would prevent fake names from being added. Even if a citation is not found, this proposal would let readers know to take foreign names with a grain of salt via the [citation needed] notice.
2. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal. Misinformation is easy to get into a record and hard to remove. Best we avoid creating Brazilian aardvarks.
3. Sparks (talk) Per all.
4. Super Mario RPG (talk) Strongly agree.
5. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all. I think the opposition is overlooking that a lot of false foreign names slip through because misguided editors try to machine translate. Without proper sourcing, it's very difficult to catch when they're added and how many of them are already on the wiki. It's just not feasible to expect readers to boot up a foreign copy because they're not that accessible - correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Switch is the first console where you can pick any translation across the board? If anything, maybe we could make an exception for names that have been verified in easily accessible translations. Also, if someone does verify it for themselves, how is anyone else supposed to know a name has been verified? Yes, solving this is going to be a lot of work, but it's already a problem and it's a problem that's only going to get worse the longer we do nothing about it.
6. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all.
7. Ahemtoday (talk) Per all.
8. Drake Inferno (talk) Essentially agree with all other points here, but I also feel that a citation could probably in most cases outside of rare versions (which would be case-by-case) just be "where this comes from", rather than a fully formatted video/image/text citation. If a person Google Translates a name and adds it, that's one thing. But if the same person does that and then actually claims it came from the text of the game, that's actively lying, and also a bit of a barrier to entry encouraging people to do the work of verifying their info.
9. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. We're a wiki; we should be striving to have accurate information, and just because it's a lot of effort doesn't mean it's "bad" or not worth it. And, as Waluigi Time points out, if we don't do something about this now, it's only going to become an even larger problem in the future. Just because the best time to start obtaining proper citations for foreign names was years ago doesn't mean it's not worth it to start now--there isn't a time limit on this!
10. Tails777 (talk) Per Waluigi Time, Drake Inferno and Camwoodstock.
11. Mario (talk) There's a lot of times I wonder where the sourced names come from, and often times, foreign names are useful bits of information to rely on especially when there's shaky North American localization involved, such as Pale Piranha's case. A while back, there was a huge discussion in Talk:Mushroom World related to how we cover the scope of the article, and "Planeta de los Hongos" and "Kinoko no Sekai" were brought up a couple times as if they were legitimate, which added to the confusion. I queried there if there's a source for "Planeta de los Hongos" and we did get an answer and had those names removed. This proposal will help clear up and hopefully prevent future confusion in some of these discussions. It's also in the proposal's favor that we did find a lot of backward translated names in the same scope as "Planeta de los Hongos". I assume some names are relatively self evident, such as generic objects (banana) or Red Shell or Metal Mario, so they don't require a citation but there are plenty of enemy names where it's much better safe than sorry to indicate where these names were found.

Oppose

1. Jdtendo (talk) Per my comments below.
2. Hewer (talk) Per Jdtendo, this feels excessive.
3. Apikachu68 (talk) Per my comments below. I don't think pages should be inundated with citations.
4. LinkTheLefty (talk) Holding English and foreign in-game names to different standards will lead to more issues than that solves; if the source comes from something rare like an iQue translation, then citation makes perfect sense, but for the most part, this is trivial to retrieve nowadays provided you have a nearby save file due to the rise of region-free system languages.
5. Koopa con Carne (talk) I understand the viewpoint of the proposal, but I believe its application would be way too broad and would surely result in a sizeable amount of redundance. On the one hand, yes, a lot of non-English names either originate from volatile sources (see List of LEGO Super Mario set names in other languages (A–C), which cites product pages on LEGO.com) or obscure sources (see the myriad of references to licensed guides) and require some explicit context to justify their place here. Even names that are used directly in a game may need citing if they're obtainable in incredibly specific scenarios within that game, such as the names of these background objects that appear only 2 weeks a year in a live service game, or information deriving from those iQue translations mentioned by LinkTheLefty. On the other hand, Jdtendo raises a good point that often a source is so ubiquitous that it can just as easily be deduced from reading the article. Normally, I don't think Mario, Peach, or Bowser, or even less popular subjects such as Parry, The InterNed, and Ratfael, require such citations, simply because their non-English names are obtainable in much the same way as their English counterparts--by following their respective games with a minimum to moderate amount of attention, the only difference being that you'd need to switch the game to another language setting or, at worst, seek a different localization for it. A case-by-case treatment is in order, but I disagree with turning this treatment into a sitewide requirement.
6. Arend (talk) I get the concern, but most of the other-language names come from the same in-game source as the English one. Sure, sometimes you get mistakes like someone assuming the Dutch name for "Crystal Star" is "Juweelster" like how the Crystal Stars are being called the "Juweelsterren" without realizing that the name "Crystal Stars" is more of an outlier compared to the other languages or that the game will tell with any of them the same "You Got a Crystal Star" message when collecting them and that their actual name is in the Crystal Stars submenu, but this should be verifiable for anyone who has a copy of the Switch version of The Thousand-Year Door considering any copy can be played in all of the available languages. That only another Dutch person such as myself cares enough to correct that mistake is not because of a lack of verifiable sources, but more of a lack of care of the wiki itself to verify it for themselves. Like Koopa con Carne said, this is more of a case-by-case basis rather than something that should be applied for literally every multilingual name documented on the wiki. Not only will it be such a hassle to not only add a "citation needed" tag to literally any non-English name that doesn't already have a source (or worse, removing them entirely which doesn't help the wiki in the slightest), but also scour through every other-lingual copy of every single Mario game and/or manual, take a screenshot or photo (good luck if you don't have a capture card or photo scanner) and upload it all to the wiki just to verify that yes, this name is legit – especially if it's not even necessary for the English names to go through all of that too, which is just a bit unfair IMO.
7. YoYo (talk) per arend

Comments

Goomther's Italian name is Goombolone. Source: that's his name in the Italian version of the game. Chef Soulfflé's Dutch name is Kok Eauvain. Source: that's his name in the Dutch version of the game. Destiny Del Vecchio's European French name is Allison Ledestin. Source: that's her name in the European French version of the movie. In the above cases where the name is found in only one piece of media, the source would be completely redundant because it's evident that the source is the localized version of the game or movie where the character appears; that's for the same reason that we don't require citations for English names in those situations. I feel that the scope of this proposal is way too broad and should be focused on subjects for which the source is not evident. Jdtendo^(T|C) 12:52, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

The thing is that since the majority of the wiki's userbase is English speaking, we don't have easy access to those pieces of media to double check. That's why I think having a link to say, a video showcasing the name from the piece of media is preferable, vs say the English version where users can more easily check for themselves. Technetium (talk) 13:05, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

Alright. How do I prove that Destiny Del Vecchio's European French name is Allison Ledestin? Do I need to upload a clip of the movie (and hope that it does not get copyright-claimed)? Say that I intend to add the French names of all characters in the upcoming Mario & Luigi game. Will I need to find a Let's Play that showcases every character (even the optional characters that most let's players won't even encounter) or make a screenshot for every single character, upload them, and painstakingly link each character name to the right screenshot? What about names added in batches from the internal game files? Shall we still provide a source for all of those? Jdtendo^(T|C) 13:33, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

You bring up good points that I lack good answers to. I am fully aware of how much of a pain this proposal would be, but I can't think of any better options to prevent misinformation. I will say that as I mentioned below, existing names would not be deleted, but would simply have [citation needed] added. It is possible these citations will never be added, but I feel readers deserve to know that while the name they are seeing could very well be accurate, it is not 100% confirmed, so they should take it with a grain of salt. As for names in internal files, see my response to the comment below (assuming you are talking about the same sort of thing). Technetium (talk) 14:07, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

@Jdtendo I would say, yes, absolutely. If you are adding a name of unclear origins, it 100% should be cited. If one is adding a valid name to the wiki, it is coming from somewhere anyways and citing that source is not an unreasonable expectation. If it is coming from a particular release of the game, then I think it is fine to cite the line of dialogue, scenario, or mission list like so: <ref>"Not bad! I guess I chose the right guy to be my archenemy." – Bowser during "Darkness on the Horizon" (12 Nov. 2007). Super Mario Galaxy by Nintendo EAD Tokyo (North American Localization). Nintendo of America. Retrieved 18 May 2023.</ref> This is already encouraged in policy, which states:

For the most part, you don't need to provide a reference for basic information taken directly from the games... However, if information is more obscure and its validity may be questioned, citing specific text found in the game (i.e. dialogue in an RPG), its manual or some other official guide book will help maintain the wiki's credibility.

Surely, non-English names that are difficult for the largely English-speaking userbase to verify can be described as "obscure and of questionable validity", especially since many foreign names are unsourced and are integrated by IP-addresses. These are very difficult to verify for anyone who is not adding it, and I do not agree that it is an unreasonable ask. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:54, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

If Option 1 of this proposal passes, integration like my Super Mario Galaxy example above is intuitively what I anticipated for non-English names that really do have in-game usage. I personally do not think providing videos or images is necessary, and I think internal file names can comfortably be used as a reference (like so: <ref>internal file names</ref>). - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:19, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

Some of the Dr. Mario World pages were taken from the datamine (examples: ice fan, Muddy Coin), because when the game's service was shut down, there really is no way to verify the different languages. And thus, I felt that the datamine has accurate information because it came directly from the game. How would those be sourced? (Also unrelated to this proposal, but I would like to add is that the translation sections for those terms are incomplete.) Winstein (talk) 12:57, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

I definitely think names taken from datamines should count as being sourced, but I'm not sure how to mark that as I am worried it would give ill-meaning editors a way to put blatantly fake names in and claim that they're correct from a datamine. I also just don't know much about datamining and if it is possible at all to have citations for those, so I'd be glad to hear anyone else's opinions on the matter. Technetium (talk) 14:07, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

I'm someone who mines names from files. They are easily sourceable, you have to source the filepath for the text data you extracted it from ie "\message\EU_Russian\menu.msbt". Ray Trace^(T|C) 12:30, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

If this proposal passes, will unsourced foreign names be removed outright or will ^{[citation needed]} be added to them? - Apikachu68 (talk) 1:23, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

[Citation needed] would be added, I think. Technetium (talk) 13:29, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

Alright, that is good to know. However, considering option 1 passes, 237 citations would need to be added to the List of Mario names in other languages page, and if the six citations already present are included, this would give the page a total of 243 citations, almost double the number of citations present on the List of Super Mario 64 glitches page. (126)
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Apikachu68 (talk).

I dont think we need direct sources like videos or screenshots for every single name in a different language, but a simple "in-game" or "manual" tag would suffice, perhaps with a bit more specificity if its a particularly hard name to find in-game (i.e. "in-game, in Mushrise Park") or something like that. My main issue is that as it stands, made up names and names that are obviously real and found in-game are indistinguishable. — Lady Sophie ^(T|C) 20:25, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

I can go and add something like that as another voting option, since it is still early enough for me to edit the proposal. Technetium (talk) 20:30, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

Not sure these need to be separate options, current sourcing already allows for just using text when appropriate (e.g. an in-game quote or an excerpt from a strategy guide - the latter could actually get us in trouble if we did require image citations). -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:14, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah, I just decided to remove Option 2, as I was already getting confused between the two yesterday, and I was not aware of quotes still using the same reference syntax at the time of adding Option 2. Technetium (talk) 12:26, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

With the right game you can even go so far to source the file path of the file you can extract the name data from. Ray Trace^(T|C) 12:30, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

@Waluigi Time: The "how is anyone else supposed to know a name has been verified" argument applies to English names too. Expecting readers to have access to every game covered on the wiki is unreasonable regardless of language. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:16, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

The difference is this is an English wiki, so the majority of the readerbase is familiar with and has access to the English copy of the game. Even if you don't personally have a copy of a particular game, there's more users able to verify names and be able to catch something if there's an error. That's why I don't think the "we shouldn't treat English differently from other languages" argument holds water. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:41, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

I don't know if "it's difficult for an English userbase to confirm in-game foreign language names" is all that valid anyway, considering LPs exist on YouTube and similar sites for pretty much any language the games are actually released in anyway. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:22, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

That doesn't seem entirely reliable. Most LPs, in my experience, don't look at every piece of text in the game, so you have to track down a gameplay video, find the portion of the game you're looking for, and then hope they didn't skip over anything. Even in games that aren't text-heavy there's things like SM64 signs, Mario Party board events etc. that can easily be skipped over. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:41, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

For text hidden away that obscurely, we sometimes cite English ones as well, so it's still not all that different. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:43, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

As an opposer, even I directly acknowledged that some in-game stuff is obscure enough that you'd need to state where it comes from. Do it case-by-case, otherwise you end up with Mario's Japanese name suddenly requiring a citation, which... yeah, lmao. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:43, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

I apologize if this sounds dismissive or harsh, but the assertions that "this would take a lot of work to implement", "I think citations would clutter the page", and "readers can verify this on their own if they want" are not substantive and fail to address the core issues raised in the proposal. The Super Mario franchise is over forty years old, and the majority of the games lack in-game bestiaries or instruction booklets that catalog all of the subjects. So the majority of article subjects on our wiki were not introduced in a period of time where video game localization was carefully documented. Yet subjects spanning across decades of media have integrated names for a variety of languages and almost none of them are cited. For example, not a single non-English name for Octoomba is cited. Did these names come from the localized Super Mario Galaxy 2 scripts? Data-mined from Dr. Mario World? The encyclopedia? Guidebooks? Made-up? I have no idea. Nearly every single enemy and character with a "Names in other languages" section has this same exact problem. Fire Piranha Plant. Cooligan. Buster Beetle. Bob-omb Buddy. Spinecone. Morty Mole. Gooble. Heave-Ho. Some of these subjects have some of their names sourced, but none of them have all of them, and this includes subjects that have appeared once in the franchise in a pre-Switch era. Where did these come from? Why is the information not provided? A reader 100% should not be burdened with going to another source like a Let's Play Channel to try verify this information, because that is what we are suppose to be doing - providing accurate information that can be trusted. Research, citation, and curation are difficult and time-consuming. But they are an inherent part of a credible encyclopedic project regardless of field or subject matter. If we should reject this proposal because we feel it would be too much of a burden on us, then why even have this wiki if we are unwilling to do the leg work necessary to make it trustworthy? - Nintendo101 (talk) 17:58, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

Just to be clear, how would enforcing this work if the source is a translated game? Will it be how Zelda Wiki does it, including English names as well? For that I think it would be better to have a general note saying all names are taken from a game if no additional citations are used. SmokedChili (talk) 09:49, August 20, 2024 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.