MarioWiki:Proposals

Current time: Tuesday, December 24th, 13:43 GMT

Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken. Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below). Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so. All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options. For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
2. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
   • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
3. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
   • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
7. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
8. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
   • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
9. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
12. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
13. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
14. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
15. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
16. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
17. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
18. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
19. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
20. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Below is an example of what your proposal must look like. If you are unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. When updating the bracketed variables with actual information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

• Move "Rare Ltd." to "Rareware" or "Rare" (discuss) Deadline: December 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Make changes to List of Smash Taunt characters (discuss) Deadline: December 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Tighten Category:Deceased characters (discuss) Deadline: December 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Merge Cascading Stone, vanishing platform, and moon platform with Falling Platform (discuss) Deadline: December 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Add to-do tasks on the Main Page (discuss) Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT
• Rename the NES Template (discuss) Deadline: January 4, 2025, 23:59 GMT
• Merge the list of show hosts in All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros. (discuss) Deadline: January 4, 2025, 23:59 GMT
• Split the theme songs from the list of Donkey Kong Country (television series) songs (discuss) Deadline: January 5, 2025, 23:59 GMT
• Rename Mario & Sonic (series) to Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (series) (discuss) Deadline: January 6, 2025, 23:59 GMT
• Rename Shadow to Shadow (enemy), and rename either Shadow (character) or Shadow (disambiguation) to Shadow (discuss) Deadline: January 6, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)

Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)

^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles, Super Mario Run, and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.

Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)

Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)

Use the classic and classic-link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)

Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)

Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)

Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)

Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)

Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)

^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.

Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)

Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)

Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)

Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)

Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)

Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)

Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)

Determine how to handle the Tattle Log images from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), Technetium (ended November 30, 2024)

Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)

Writing guidelines

Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series

I've pitched this before, and it got a lot of approval (particularly in favor of one-at-a-time small proposals), so I'm making it a full proposal:
I have thought long and hard about the "proper" way for us to cover Super Smash Bros. in a way that both respects the desire to focus primarily on Super Mario elements while also respecting the desire to not leave anything uncovered. As such, the main way to do this is to give pages only to Super Mario elements, whilst covering everything else on the pages for the individual Super Smash Bros. games; unless otherwise stated, they will instead link to other wikis, be if the base series' wiki or SmashWiki. For instance, Link will remain an internal link (no pun intended) because he's crossed over otherwise, Ganondorf will link to Zeldawiki because he hasn't. Link's moves (originating from the Legend of Zelda series) will link to Zeldawiki, while Ganondorf's moves (original moves due to being based on Captain Falcon's moves) will link to Smashwiki.
Other specific aspects of this, which for the most part make the game pages' internal coverage be more consistent with how we handle other games':

1. Structure the "List of items in Smash" to how Super Mario RPG (talk) had it in this edit, albeit with the remaining broken formatting fixed. That page always bothered me, and that version is a definite improvement.
2. Merge the "enemies" pages to their respective game - they're already structured like any other game's enemy tables anyway. These pages also always bothered me.
3. Merge the "Subspace Army" and "Subspace Stages" lists to each other to recreate a watered-down version of the Subspace Emissary page (to split from the Brawl page due to length and being exclusive to that campaign); it would also include a table for characters describing their role in said campaign, as well as objects/items found exclusively in it (Trophy Stands, the funny boxes, the metallic barrel cannons, etc... a lot of things from the deleted "List of Super Smash Bros. series objects" page, actually) - once again, all except Mario-derived things will link elsewhere (mostly to Smashwiki in this case).
4. Section each game akin to how I had the SSB64 page as of this edit, including sections for Pokemon, Assist Trophies, Bosses, etc., and links to other wikis for subjects that we don't need pages on. Other sections can be added as needed, and table structure is not specifically set, so further info can be added.
5. Leave the lists for fighters, stages, and (series-wide) bosses alone (for now at least), as they make sense to have a series-wide representation on here in some capacity. Also, you never know when one of them is going to cross over otherwise, like Villager, Isabelle, and Inkling suddenly joining Mario Kart, so it's good to keep that around in case a split is deemed necessary from something like that happening down the line.
6. Have image galleries cover everything that can reasonably be included in an image gallery for the game, regardless of origin. This includes artwork, sprites, models, screenshots, etc, for any subject - yes, including Pokemon, so that will undo that one proposal from a month ago. Just like on the game pages, the labels will link to other sites as needed.
7. Leave Stickers and Spirits alone (for now at least), their pages are too large to merge and are fine as they are for the reasons that opposition to deleting them historically has brought up.
8. Include the "minigame" stages (Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, Race to the Finish, Snag Trophies, Home Run Contest, Trophy Tussle, the Melee Adventure Mode stages) in the "list of stages debuting in [game]" articles. For ones like Targets, it would just explain how it worked and then have a gallery for the different layouts rather than describing each in detail (and if we later want to split the Mario-based ones into their own articles, I guess we can at some point). Said minigame pages should be merged to a section in the SSB series article covering the series' minigames. The Subspace Emissary stages will get a section with a {{main}} to the stage section of the Subspace Emissary article (detailed in an above point).
9. Keep trophy, assist trophy, challenge, and soundtrack pages covering only Mario things, leave the remainder of the images in the game gallery (fun fact: Smashwiki does not have game galleries, nor does their community want them; we can base what we could do on if other wikis do something, but not base what we cannot do from those - nothing forbids coverage just because of that).

People may wonder, "What about Nintendo Land and Saturday Supercade? Why don't they get this level of coverage?" It's simple, really: In Smash, you can have Mario throw a Deku Nut at Ridley in Lumiose City and nobody bats an eye at how absurd that situation is. In those other games, the different representations are very much split apart; all Mario-related stuff is within a few minigames that do not overlap whatsoever with any of the other ones. In Nintendo Land, you cannot have Mario fighting Ridley in the Lost Woods, despite (representations of) all of those things appearing in the game. In Smash, anyone can interact with anything, regardless of origin, so Mario characters can interact with anything, and anyone can interact with Mario things. That's why Smash, the melting pot it is, gets more focus than Nintendo Land, where everything's more of a side dish.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: October 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support - clarify it like this

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per
2. Axii (talk) Even though I disagree with points 6, 7, and especially 8 (Mario-themed minigames should be covered separately), I feel like this is the solution most would agree to compromise on.
3. Camwoodstock (talk) While we would like to do some stuff of our own (cough cough, maybe a proper solution to Smash redirects clogging categories), this is a good start, we feel. If push comes to shove, we could always revert some of these changes in another proposal.
4. Ahemtoday (talk) This is a great framework for our coverage of the series. I still would like a better handling of smaller things like trophies, stickers, spirits, and music, but I'm not sure what that would look like and we could always make that change later.
5. Hewer (talk) Per proposal, this is a good step towards cleaning up our Smash coverage.
6. Metalex123 (talk) Per proposal
7. Tails777 (talk) I’d like to see where this goes. Per proposal.
8. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
9. ThePowerPlayer (talk) I've reconsidered my hardline stance since the previous proposal, and I can now agree with most of the points listed here. However, like others have said, I do want to revisit the coverage of massive lists like those for stickers and spirits in the future.
10. Superchao (talk) Per the proposal. Hving the itemized list will allow for simpler debate and discussion in the future, rather than our ad-hoc coverage status built over time. Lay the groundwork, then discuss the details.
11. Arend (talk) Per proposal.
12. OmegaRuby (talk) Per proposal.
13. Pseudo (talk) The idea that other series' relevance to the Mario franchise within Smash compared to other examples like Nintendo Land resonates greatly with me. Per proposal.
14. Killer Moth (talk) Per all.

Oppose - don't clarify it like this

1. SeanWheeler (talk) We might actually need to reduce the Smash coverage a bit more. We especially can't undo that proposal that reduced Pokémon. And those sticker and spirits list really should have been reduced to Mario subjects like the trophy list. The fact that the middle spirit list doesn't have a single Mario spirit is absurd. And maybe those fighter lists should be split back into their own character pages again. Most of them had appeared in Super Mario Maker. I have a different idea of how we should handle Smash.
2. SmokedChili (talk) This wiki really doesn't need to cover every series that appears in Smash Bros. extensively. Would be better to limit full coverage to both Mario itself and Smash since that's the host series while minimizing exposure to others if there's some connection to Mario, like, which stickers boost tail damage for Yoshi. General info on all of the modes (Classic, collections, settings), that's fine. Characters, stages, items, Assist Trophy spawns etc., just list the Mario content, mention the totals and the proportions from Mario, and include screenshots of full selections if possible.

Comments - clarify the clarification?

(I was gonna name the options "Smash" and "Pass," but I thought that might be too dirty) - Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:38, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

@Axii - I wouldn't say any of the minigames are really innately Mario-themed, though. If any were, I'd have them stay separate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:02, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

As I mentioned on your talk page, Break the Targets and Board the Platforms have Mario-themed stages Axii (talk) 23:57, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

Yes, and as I mentioned in the proposal, those can be separately split later if it is determined to be acceptable. The minigames themselves, however, are not Mario-themed. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:19, October 4, 2024 (EDT)

Why not leave them out of this proposal though. Why should we merge Mario content? Axii (talk) 09:29, October 4, 2024 (EDT)

The current articles don't actually describe the individual stages anyway, just an overview of the mode. Also, those list pages already include the Mario stages, just with a "main article" template. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:56, October 4, 2024 (EDT)

It just means 4 more weeks before it can be split. I just don't see a need to decide on these in this proposal. Axii (talk) 04:41, October 9, 2024 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick I know you are familiar with my crossover article draft using Zelda as a base, but I do not think I clarified some of the intents I had with it, which I shared here with Mushzoom. I do not think it intersects with what you layout above, but I just wanted to let you know. (I also welcome other folks to check it out.) - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:45, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

I think both can coexist dandily. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:56, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler: Though the middle spirit list has no spirits of Mario characters, it's not irrelevant to Mario because Mario characters, stages, items, etc. appear in many spirit battles. In fact, the very first spirit on that page (Jirachi) has Mario relevance (you need Luma and Starlow to summon it). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:09, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

@SmokedChili - What about non-Mario characters that we cover anyway due to them crossing over outside of Smash, like Link, Isabelle, and Banjo? Surely their presence in another crossover deserves to be acknowledged. That's one of the main issues that arises with the "nuclear" mindset. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:32, October 4, 2024 (EDT)

What about those? Them crossing over in Mario isn't the same thing as crossing over in Smash. That's where the complete selection screenshots come in, make them image maps where crossover subjects with Mario Wiki articles get image map links with necessary notes. That way lists don't have to bleed over to include anything else but Mario.

On another note, shouldn't you have just waited four more weeks? You posted here your concern over those two proposals stalling you further with this if they passed, but that's not how rule 7 works. It says 'any decision'. That means voting to keep status quo is also what can't be overturned for 4 weeks. SmokedChili (talk) 09:28, October 5, 2024 (EDT)

My understanding is that, because those two proposals failed, neither of this proposal's outcomes would contradict that. The coverage that they were trying to remove is kept either way here. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:25, October 5, 2024 (EDT)

Honestly, I think all those points should be in their own separate proposals. I would support #1 if it was a talk page proposal for Talk:List of Super Smash Bros. series items, but combined in a wiki proposal with other things I don't want, I had to oppose. @Axii is that month really worth having #6, #7 and #8? @Camwoodstock, sure we can revert some of these changes with another proposal, but the proposal rules state we have to wait four weeks before we have a counterproposal to a part of this proposal. And if Hewer is right about failed proposals not counting, then would opposing this be the better choice of action when you disagree with just one thing? Oh, and @Hewer, if I make a proposal to reduce the Spirit List, I would definitely want to keep the Spirit Battles that involve Mario fighters and stages. And with stickers, I would get rid of the non-Mario stickers that don't specifically boost Mario characters. And, I definitely do not want Smash 64's page in that way. It should be as focused on Mario like how Bulbapedia's Super Smash Bros. series game pages focus on the Pokémon content, and how the Sonic Wiki Zone's page on Super Smash Bros. Brawl was more about Sonic. #4 is going to make our Smash game pages more comprehensive than Smash Wiki's game pages. If we're really that worried about losing stuff in our reduction of Smash coverage, why don't we talk to Smash Wiki's admins about merging the pages we don't need into Smash Wiki's articles? There's got to be some cross-wiki communication if the Donkey Kong Wiki merged into us. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:11, October 6, 2024 (EDT)

My long term goal is only having non-Mario Smash content on the game page itself. If it means compromising to get more people on board, I'm all for it. I'm going to make a prediction that in 5 years the idea to cover Smash like a guest appearance won't be much controversial Axii (talk) 02:04, October 6, 2024 (EDT)

As I said in the proposal, "we can base what we could do on if other wikis do something, but not base what we cannot do from those - nothing forbids coverage just because of that." Also Sonic is a bad example since he was only introduced in the third game, while Bulbapedia is built around the very rigid structure of the main Pokemon games anyway. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:12, October 6, 2024 (EDT)

I think folks engaging with this proposal should think critically about what type of titles the Super Smash Bros. games are in relation to Super Mario? Are they:

A. Proper Mario crossovers on par with Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games and Itadaki Street DS? or

B. Games that have some Mario material in it on par with Punch-Out!! (Wii), NES Remix, The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, and NBA Street V3? or

C. Neither or something in between?

I think part of the issue with this in particular is not only that Smash Bros. articles had seen full support on the wiki for a very long time, but many of the characters and elements in it do appear with Super Mario in completely other contexts. Almost none of the Fighter lists we have on Super Mario Wiki exclusively cover the Smash Bros. title of their respective articles and it is just odd to organize information that way. Super Mario also represents the greatest percentage of material in every Smash Bros. game.

I do not know if it is worth holding on to any spirit, sticker, or trophy lists, but if we did, and restricted to to ones that are not only of Super Mario subjects, but things that can be applied to Mario fighters, I would personally find lists like that so fragmented that the articles would basically be useless. What's the point of having intentionally fragmented articles and lists that no one is going to read? - Nintendo101 (talk) 02:22, October 6, 2024 (EDT)

The trophy lists already got trimmed to just Mario ones, which is easier to do there because the non-Mario ones don't interact with Mario characters like stickers and spirits do. I wouldn't want to remove Mario-relevant information, but I also agree with your "fragmented articles" comment, so I think not trimming the stickers and spirits is the best choice. Plus, in the case of spirits, they can all be used by Mario characters, so you can justify it similarly to the list of items. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 07:01, October 6, 2024 (EDT)

To be clear, failed proposals do count for the four-week no overturning rule, I was just saying that the failed outcome of those two specific proposals doesn't contradict either of this proposal's outcomes. If this proposal were to fail, it'd still be four weeks until a proposal to only do some of its changes could be made. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:43, October 6, 2024 (EDT)

I'd say Smash should be something between a guest appearance and crossover. Smash is the biggest crossover ever, but to cover it as fully as Mario & Sonic, we'd be competing against Smash Wiki. But we can't treat Smash as a guest appearance because Mario is more overrepresented than Fire Emblem, and because Link's Awakening is not covered on Link's page despite having a page for it. If we could merge with the DK Wiki, then maybe there could be some cross-wiki discussion to merge pages not relevant to Mario into Smash Wiki. Maybe we should get the CrossWiki Team involved? I don't know how this works. I don't see the DK Wiki merge in the proposal archive. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:47, October 7, 2024 (EDT)

I do not think this is the same situation because DK Wiki was consolidated with Super Mario Wiki due to low community activity, maintenance, and attention. (It should be noted that Super Mario Wiki was covering the Donkey Kong franchise concurrently at the time anyways, even for the many years when DK Wiki existed.) It was the Donkey Kong Wiki's admins that sought consolidation with us. Both Super Mario Wiki and Smash Wiki are in the good fortune of having dedicated communities, so there isn't exactly the same kind of pressure.

At this point, I do not think there are any Smash Bros. articles on Super Mario Wiki that are not also already on Smash Wiki. In my view, what differentiates some of these articles is "tone" and how subjects are covered. - Nintendo101 (talk) 01:13, October 7, 2024 (EDT)

Well, of course there wouldn't be any Smash Bros. articles on Super Mario Wiki that isn't already on Smash Wiki. And there weren't any Donkey Kong Wiki pages that weren't already on Super Mario Wiki was there? What did we do in that merge, cut-and-paste text from DK Wiki into the Donkey Kong related pages here? I would want Smash Wiki on board so that they don't accuse us of plagiarism when merging like that. And if our tone is not compatible with theirs, or if their pages are better than ours, I wouldn't mind if we straight up delete content here. Admins can undelete them if we ever need them later. I definitely do not want this proposal to undo the Pokémon proposal. SeanWheeler (talk) 15:06, October 7, 2024 (EDT)

Where did this whole idea of us "competing" with SmashWiki come from anyway? Even besides the fact we don't have to base what we do on other wikis, the two wikis here have vastly different coverage from one another despite some overlap (SmashWiki has a lot of separate pages that this wiki no longer does, coverage on the fanbase and players, etc., while this wiki covers the whole Mario franchise, obviously). This isn't like Donkey Kong Wiki, where the entirety of its scope was also covered by this wiki. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:51, October 7, 2024 (EDT)

Up until this proposal, Super Mario Wiki fully covered the Super Smash Bros. series per the MarioWiki:Coverage policy for crossovers, meaning that for a significant amount of time, the Super Mario Wiki covered about as much Smash as Smash Wiki. In fact, before Smash Wiki joined NIWA, Bulbapedia linked the characters without a NIWA wiki to Super Mario Wiki. Here's the edit to Brawl that relinked characters from Super Mario Wiki to Smash Wiki in 2010]. It's actually a good thing that we're reducing Smash coverage. Doc's proposal that is going to bring back more Smash content would actually be regressive, especially when it undoes the reduction of Pokémon content. Why does Doc want the Pokémon stuff back? Other than Pikachu appearing with Mario characters in the Smash 64 commercial, Mario fighting Charizard in Greninja's reveal trailer, Rayquaza grabbing Diddy Kong in the Subspace Emmisary, and of course the gameplay of Smash allowing Mario characters to fight Pokémon and pick up Poké Balls, Pokémon has nothing to do with Mario. If someone were to write an article on Maggie Lockwood from Chicago Med on the Super Mario Wiki, with so much detail about her history in the episodes of Chicago Med, Chicago Fire and Chicago P.D. without plagiarizing the Chicago Med Wiki article and written well according to the manual of style, of course we'd delete that article because we don't cover the Chicago franchise at all as those shows are not even remotely related to Nintendo. And if it's written so professionally that the only rule broken is the Coverage policy, it wouldn't be funny enough to make it to BJAODN. Unless someone finds it funny that a non-Mario article was written so well on the Super Mario Wiki? But, if the user were to admit that the article was made for BJAODN, that's a real dealbreaker. Sometimes we have to permanently remove content. And in the case of Super Smash Bros, it would be better for use to focus on the Mario, Yoshi, Donkey Kong and Wario series content in the Smash game instead of acting like another Smash Wiki. Do not bring back the unnecessary clutter. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:52, October 9, 2024 (EDT)

Except that the proposal isn't about adding articles on Pokémon, it's just to keep all the information about the Smash games on the games' own pages, which I think is reasonable as a middle ground between guest appearance and full Mario crossover. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:50, October 9, 2024 (EDT)

But it wants to add more irrelevant images to the galleries. Honestly, maybe we should treat Smash more like a guest appearance. Sure, the Super Mario franchise has been overrepresented in Smash to the point of getting more series symbols for spinoffs, but when there's a NIWA wiki, it's best to let Smash Wiki handle Smash. We don't need the list of Pokémon on the game pages. I'd check Bulbapedia's version of those pages instead. We shouldn't cram everything about the Smash games. There's a reason why we're splitting histories and galleries of major Mario characters. There is MarioWiki:Article size to consider. Other NIWA wikis would focus on their series in the Smash games. When a majority of NIWA wikis handle Smash a certain way, it might be a good idea to follow their example. And I think those lists of Smash content should be reduced to Mario-relevant information. And the lists that only include stuff that don't have their own pages should be deleted. Characters who cameoed in Super Mario Maker and other Mario-related appearances outside of Smash should be split from those lists because we would have some information that Smash Wiki wouldn't cover. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:06, October 10, 2024 (EDT)

As I said in the proposal, "We can base what we could do on if other wikis do something, but not base what we cannot do from those - nothing forbids coverage just because of that." Also "irrelevant" is entirely subjective. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:33, October 10, 2024 (EDT)

Relation to Mario should be a major factor for relevance to a Mario wiki. There's a reason why Mario cameos are given less coverage than the half-Mario crossovers like Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games. In Smash, Mario's the most overrepresented series, but is one of many series in Smash. SeanWheeler (talk) 04:01, October 10, 2024 (EDT)

Bringing up an extent of coverage we have that I feel is super important--SmashWiki does not do game galleries, and, to my knowledge, they do not want game galleries. Our coverage of Smash provides some images that would otherwise not be seen in places other than, say, The Spriters Resource, which in my opinion is more difficult to navigate for a few images than a wiki such as this. Thinking specifically about the proposal passed to remove "excessive Pokémon lists and images"--to my knowledge, those images are not present (or are not present for the most part) on SmashWiki. --OmegaRuby (talk) 11:43, October 10, 2024 (EDT)

Smash Wiki has gallery sections for each game. Maybe not gallery pages, but still. And besides, the images from that proposal were deleted weren't they? SeanWheeler (talk) 02:04, October 11, 2024 (EDT)

You said it yourself. "Admins can undelete them if we ever need them later." That's what this is. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:52, October 11, 2024 (EDT)

But that proposal passed for a good reason. Those images and those lists of Pokémon aren't much use for a Mario Wiki. And besides, the individual Pokémon pages on Smash Wiki is full of images of those Pokémon in Smash. I can't remember what Pokémon images we had here, but I don't think they really have any more value than what's on Smash Wiki. Also, not everyone who voted their support actually supports your entire proposal. Axii doesn't support #6, #7 or #8, and Camwoodstock is thinking of reverting some of these changes with another proposal. So are we going to undo that Pokémon removal proposal only to redo it next month? Wouldn't it be kind of counterproductive to delete them for a month, restore them for another month, and then delete them again? That would look like a deletion war, which is more insane than any edit war because only admins could delete and restore pages. Guys, if you don't want #6 enforced, please oppose this proposal. It would be better to wait and then propose the changes you want individually than it is to undo a proposal you just supported. Would you really want that back-and-forth with the Pokémon content you got rid of? SeanWheeler (talk) 01:06, October 12, 2024 (EDT)

We will have to wait four weeks regardless if this proposal passes or fails, at least some positive changes can be implemented now. It doesn't hurt to take our time and get the rest of the community on board. Axii (talk) 01:14, October 12, 2024 (EDT)

"Doesn't hurt to take our time"? You tell that to Doc. Going back to that subject, what gets me is why would he react like those last two proposals would hold him back (if they succeeded, as he thinks)? That implies there is something in those proposals that he saw overlapping with this, and he's keeping mum because a) he thinks others have already answered that, and b) given his track record, the more invested he becomes in wanting to pass his favored changes, the more likely he is to sidestep the rules. SmokedChili (talk) 17:34, October 12, 2024 (EDT)

What? Those two proposals were about removing content from the pages on the games, and that goes against this proposal because one of its main goals is to keep the pages and galleries on the games comprehensive while trimming on other pages. There's no mysterious conspiracy to "sidestep the rules" here. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 20:23, October 12, 2024 (EDT)

You have to wait four weeks to do something that contradicts a passed proposal or re-proposes a failed proposal. If a proposal fails, there's nothing stopping you from making a counter-proposal immediately, since that indicates community consensus may already be mostly on-board with the opposite of the original proposal. Since those two proposals failed, it ended up not mattering - what I was complaining about then was it pushing it back further if they passed or went into overtime. Also, as it is, I normally play the long game and had been doing so on this subject for years until these past several proposals spurred me into action (if you look seven years ago, I was the one complaining about an omnibus proposal for Smash coverage, so things change... and also that one resulted in a lot of the half-baked oddities of the current system that this one aims to address). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:27, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Still not how the rule works, if a proposal failed then any proposal following it, a counter-proposal included, is bound to wait those four weeks. Nothing about community consensus there. SmokedChili (talk) 14:06, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

False. The only rule on the subject (rule #7) says "No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old." Also, no one complained when I made a proposal to split the "truck" page immediately after my "merge all traffic" proposal failed, since that was doing the opposite. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:19, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler personally, without getting into semantics, having curated and organized galleries is just nice to have and I do not think it has to be the big deal it is being laid out to be. One of Super Mario Wiki's strengths as a historical and artistic reference is its preservation of important assets, artwork, and material, and organizing them. Applying that muscle to the Super Smash Bros. series is, in my view, just objectively wonderful because it is such an important game series and there is not support for this anywhere else. For contrast, this is Smash Wiki's gallery section for Super Smash Bros. Brawl. And here is ours. For many years, these galleries were the primary Smash Bros. material I would engage with on Mario Wiki because Smash Wiki, for as thorough as it is, just does not support them and the community there has a more utilitarian philosophy. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does mean Mario Wiki is supporting something that Smash Wiki just isn't, and unless there is a future where they decide to support this type of infrastructure themselves, I personally think having complete galleries for the Super Smash Bros. series on Super Mario Wiki is an objective good. Maybe I would feel differently if the discussion was that we should be building up these galleries from scratch. But given they are already on the site and have been for years, little is gained from stripping them of material. A fair bit would be lost. - Nintendo101 (talk) 12:54, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

New features

Cite relevant proposals and discussions on policy pages and guidelines

Despite how restrictive these pages are to editors below a certain rank, there is truth in saying they are just as community-driven as other pages--often, it's through a consensus among people like me and you that certain rules are implemented or removed. To those who peruse the wiki's policies, it may be helpful to know how the community came to such an agreement on a certain matter, i.e. seeing precisely what arguments lay behind it in a way that the policy page itself may deem excessive to elaborate. Even in the case of a policy that fully reiterates what a discussion put forward, or a proposal where the only one who employed any arguments was the proposer themself, with other users unanimously supporting it through a mere "Per all", there's still value in knowing that there was consent from the community in implementing what was proposed.

The wiki could satisfy this need by citing, as one does in mainspace articles, the discussion that led to the policy change. Said discussion doesn't need to be a proposal (i.e. where the consensus is quantifiable through votes); it could be any kind of user exchange, on this wiki or even on the forums, that thrusted the change into action. Citations could be added to any guideline specifically laid out in aid of editors on this wiki, so not just on pages that are part of the "MarioWiki:" namespace, but also formatting templates or Help pages.

Here is how I propose this is put into action, using snippets from policy and guidelines. I suggest collating these discussion links in a dedicated "discussion" ref group to set them apart from miscellaneous citations that may be present alongside.

MarioWiki:Manual of Style#Non-fiction

Future tense should be avoided when referring to subjects appearing in upcoming media; as trailers and screenshots show said subjects to have already been incorporated into and are thus presently in the game, present tense must be used.

Template:Rewrite-expand

A specific reason must be added as a parameter (e.g., {{rewrite-expand|Give more detail on the difference between Red and Green Koopa Troopas}}) and it needs to be a clear, actionable point (i.e., simply slapping the template on a page with "bad writing" as the reason is not sufficient), otherwise the template will be removed from whatever page it was applied to.

MarioWiki:Naming#Shared titles

If there are four or more pages which could be reasonably associated with a particular title, [...]

Note that should this proposal pass, not every bit of policy will require some retroactively-made discussion to be cited. A lot of them just happened to be, either out of common sense or through internal talks. This proposal strictly targets policies and guidelines that already have a relevant discussion available somewhere publicly in the community.

Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Deadline: October 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Koopa con Carne (talk) per proposal.
2. OmegaRuby (talk) Fantastic idea that supports the community just by way of making it known that we can make big changes.
3. Arend (talk) Actually not bad of an idea at all. Per proposal.
4. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per proposal.
5. Pseudo (talk) This would be very useful and is something I have often wondered about while looking through policy pages historically.
6. Camwoodstock (talk) While you could argue this is redundant in the face of just, manually updating the links to proposals, we don't see any harm in trying to standardize that process like this.
7. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.

Comments

Was this proposal not just made? How come it's due by tonight? --OmegaRuby (talk) 08:05, October 10, 2024 (EDT)

Corrected. I'm sorry. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 08:26, October 10, 2024 (EDT)

I have a list of proposals that decided coverage status for every guest appearance title, maybe it could help. Axii (talk) 13:55, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Recreate Smash Bros. DOJO!!

As far as I can tell, this proposal won't contradict the big ongoing proposal. 17 years ago this proposal removed Smash Bros. DOJO!!, an official website for Brawl that contains some cool content about the game. The website is still accessible, which is really surprising for Nintendo. The proposal decided that all website articles should be deleted, something this wiki no longer does (just look at Play Nintendo, Wario's Warehouse, and Nintendo Kids Space). Smash Bros. DOJO!! contains plenty of Mario content (mostly in the form of articles similar to Wario's Warehouse) that should be covered on its own page.

Proposer: Axii (talk)
Deadline: October 22, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Axii (talk) A proposal to reinstate a deleted Smash page, unbelievable
2. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal.
3. Tails777 (talk) Per proposal
4. Camwoodstock (talk) We're surprised this was deleted given we're currently the last line of defense for Wario's Warehouse nowadays--talk about a change of heart! We wouldn't be opposed to greater documentation of Nintendo's promotional websites, frankly, and this'd be a good starting point for that. Smash DOJO is one of the most famous examples of one of these promotional sites, and while we are a little shaky given it's Smash and not Mario outright, there's nothing preventing us from doing something similar for more Mario-related websites down the road.
5. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.

#Koopa con Carne (talk) Per proposal.

#OmegaRuby (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose

1. Ahemtoday (talk) The Dojo is the same as the Smash 4 or Ultimate websites — all three of them, like most official video game websites, are basically advertisements for their respective games. We're not the Smash Wiki — I see zero need for our coverage of the Smash series to go so deep as to begin to cover its promotional material.
2. EvieMaybe (talk) we don't need to keep eating smashwiki's lunch. if there's enough exclusively mario-centric content to warrant making a page out of, i'll change my vote, but for now i'm firmly on the camp of "smash stuff is not mario stuff"
3. SeanWheeler (talk) If we have the official website for Brawl, will we create pages on the Smash 4 and Ultimate websites, the SmashBoards forums and every website Smash Wiki has?
4. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) Smash Bros. DOJO!! is the website for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and I don't know of any instances of this wiki actually making a page for a game's official website, so this would just be incosistent. I'm fine with the general idea of covering the posts on the website, but this would also be inconsistent as neither the posts on the Super Smash Bros. Ultimate website, or Super Smash Bros. 4's "pic of the day" series, have pages here. I want to stress that I don't take issue with either of these concepts as a whole, I'm just not a fan of making a change to create an article on this one topic, and would prefer a bigger proposal that allows coverage of similar topics as well.

Comments

I'd suggest that the website's (textual) contents not be entirely copied and pasted here, though. I understand why this was done with Wario's Warehouse, as that site pretty much disappeared without a trace, but Smash DOJO's still officially up and has been backed up on Internet Archive (thank god Wayback Machine's at least read-only now). I envision its wiki article having a summary of each section of the site and a list of blog posts with relevant links for each section. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:22, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Unless Nintendo takes it down, that's the plan. Axii (talk) 14:29, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

"We wouldn't be opposed to greater documentation of Nintendo's promotional websites, frankly, and this'd be a good starting point for that."
Play Nintendo, Nintendo Kids Space, SMBPlumbing.com, and Welcome to Greedville are a joke to you??? :'((( -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:47, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

We know this was probably a goof, but honestly, those articles are a very nice basis for what we're talking about! We mostly mean we could also add stuff like the old flash-based NSMB website that had a boatload of downloadables and even hints for the game itself (the former have an incomplete list on that game's gallery, the latter seem to be entirely AWOL), or maybe even stuff like the Japanese Paper Mario site that had pre-created lists of badge setups for the player to try out, complete with descriptions of their strategies. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 16:55, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler why are you implying fan websites would get covered? This is not Smash wiki. This is a Mario wiki that should cover everything Mario, and Smash Bros. DOJO!! contains just that. Official Mario content published by Nintendo. Axii (talk) 02:25, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

@Shy Guy on Wheels there is really nothing stopping people from making a page about other official websites if they have enough unique Mario content on them. SMBPlumbing.com is a good example of that. If anything it would be inconsistent if we didn't cover major websites when there's official Mario content on them. This proposal specifically targets DOJO because it has a unique name, historical significance, and plenty of content about Mario. Axii (talk) 09:50, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

@EvieMaybe why are you opposed to covering official Mario content on the Super Mario Wiki? Axii (talk) 09:51, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

@Ahemtoday so, the same as SMBPlumbing.com? Why should we avoid making a page for a website that contains Mario content released by Nintendo just because it's related to Smash? Axii (talk) 09:53, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

Rescinding my vote because, honestly, having browsed the website quite a bit, I'm left wondering what type of content there justifies treating it as a work separate from the object it promotes, in a way that other promo websites aren't. DOJO is definitely more insightful than your average Nintendo game microsite, doubling as a blog where the director himself spills much ink on Brawl's intricacies, but it's not that different in principle--its purpose is still almost solely to give you information on the elements you can expect in a potential future purchase, along with the fringe player-centric content such as fan-submitted snapshots and world records in minigames. Portals like Play Nintendo, SMBPlumbing.com, Welcome to Greedville, and The Lab, while indeed also built entirely in service of one or more products, provide experiences in and of themselves, either by being a hub of activities or by supplementing the fiction within said product(s) and therefore expanding Mario's universe (i.e. SMBPlumbing.com is a make-believe business site for the Mario Bros.; of course it would have an article, it's meant to exist within the Mario movie).
I understand the... let's say, cultural importance of Smash Bros. DOJO, that it represented the bells-and-whistles of Brawl prior to its release, and the fact that it provided direct and constant communication from the game's director, so, yes, it is a special product in its own way. Heck, the title itself is unique and suggests a departure from the average promo site, as opposed to a more generic "Official Super Smash Bros. Brawl(TM) Website". However, it is also inextricably linked to the game. The best course, IMO, would be to summarize the website in a section of Brawl's article and limit it to that, especially against the backdrop of all these attempts to restrict Smash Bros coverage. To be honest, I think Super Mario Maker Bookmark deserves more to have an article. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:38, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

I don't know if the Bookmark site should get a page. There's just nothing to write about, no extra information, just a search and bookmarking function. DOJO, on the other hand, contains news publications. It's not an interactive website, but it doesn't devalue all the posts on it. Anything Nintendo puts out online is inherently an advertising material, but, given that Nintendo published articles on it for a year, it should be covered on this wiki. The opposition has mentioned that this proposal would open a can of worms of its own, namely which websites should we even cover, and I think it needs to be addressed by a different proposal at some point in the future regardless of the outcome of this proposal. But for now, I see no harm in making a page for a website with historical significance, unique name, and Mario content exclusive to it. Axii (talk) 12:53, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

Koopa con Carne makes a good point. Rescinding my vote as well, but not switching to oppose, as I wouldn't really mind if we had an article for it anyways. -- OmegaRuby [ Talk / Contribs ] 14:13, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

The fact that not every Mario website gets an article here would be a strong point against DOJO's return. Why should a Smash official site get an article when not every Mario site has one? Not even Nintendo.com has a page here. DOJO has even less Mario content than Brawl itself. And Smash Wiki has an article on it if you want to read it on a wiki. What is even worth having that article here? Is it going to focus on the Mario content, or would it focus on details that were too unnecessary for the Smash Wiki page? Could someone who undeletes pages check what was on the page the proposal is trying to restore? Was the page a stub? How similar was the page to the Smash Wiki page? Well, even if it was a good article, I think we should give all Mario websites pages before we consider crossover websites like the Smash Bros. Dojo pages. Yes, even the Super Mario Wiki should get a page on itself that isn't the Main Page before we do Smash websites. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:55, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

The quality of the original article is irrelevant, what matters is how much Mario content there is to cover. As I said above, this wiki should have guidelines on website coverage, but it's not for this proposal to decide. And no, this wiki shouldn't cover fan websites. Axii (talk) 03:26, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates

Navigational templates are one of this wiki's best features. They're a really convenient way to get around the wiki. However, one common pitfall of the templates is bloat, in particular in the form of links to subjects that do not have dedicated articles. I have previously made a proposal about this subject specifically in the context of the Super Smash Bros. series, but the problem extends to navigational templates across the entire wiki.

In principle, navigational templates should be directories of articles on the wiki. What advantage does it give the reader for Template:WWMI to have a whole section dedicated to eighteen separate links to subsections of Form Stones on top of a link to the main article itself? Why does Template:Humans link to all seven individual members of List of show hosts in All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros. individually? Does the already crowded Template:Super Mario games really need to use precious space on a link to a two-sentence section about a theoretical game that Elon Musk claims to have failed to have pitched to Nintendo?

I propose that, across the board, all subpage and redirect links on all navigational templates should be either removed or replaced. (Red links are relatively fine, as long as the things they don't link to theoretically should be articles that just haven't been made yet. Edge cases like "Unnamed Worlds A-C Human" should be decided case-by-case in the relevant talk pages.)

Proposer: JanMisali (talk)
Deadline: October 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Remove the extra links from navigational templates

1. JanMisali (talk) As proposer.

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.